Criminal investigation in the Federation.

[Sci]

Wonder if there is a federation Interpol ? A criminal skips to other planets and say a Vulcan goes to andoria to find him/her. But not federation business per se.

Pretty sure this would fall under the jurisdiction of the Federation Security Agency.

Alot of the minor crimes would go away but there would still be murders, roberies, people jacked up on future version drugs, crime in itself won't go away. No matter how "enlightened" the society.

I agree that there will always be someone out there doing this or that. But in a society where everyone lives in material comfort and psychological health, these numbers can be driven down to the point where such crimes become extremely, extremely rare. Like, what's the point of committing robbery if wealth inequality is gone or virtually gone? How likely do you think spur-of-the-moment murders would be if everybody received competent mental health care throughout their lives to give them the tools to manage their own emotions and decision-making processes? Hell, we know that things like malnutrition in childhood stemming from parents' poverty can have a devastating impact on children's neurological development, permanently damaging their brains' ability to regulate emotions; how much less violence would there be even if just every single child received good nutrition?

There will always be outliers, but outliers are by definition not the vast majority. In a society where wealth is equitaby distributed and poverty abolished, the broad patterns of society would drastically change.

I think one of the reasons we rarely see any sort of Federation law enforcement service is that in a society that has abolished poverty and inequality, there would only rarely even be a need for police.

And yet Harry Mudd exists (TOS/DISC),

1. Again, outliers are not the majority.

2. Who's to say Harry is from the Federation?

humans join the Orion syndicate (DS9),

Felix from "Honor Among Thieves" (DS9) was not from a Federation world though. He was a foreign citizen.

beings might still break flying or driving speed limits,

Again, I suspect that the rates for these kinds of things would drastically decrease if young people grow up in an environment where they receive good physical and mental health care that gives them the tools to understand and manage their emotions and decision-making processes in a healthy way.

drunken brawls still happen (ST09)

Rarely, sure. No one's claiming all crime will disappear entirely. But ST has made it clear that crime is much more rare, and that makes sense in a society where poverty is gone and everyone gets good physical and mental health care.

And also, the public safety agency that handles traffic regulation and responds to things like drunken brawls can operate along a radically different ethos -- a commitment to nonviolence unless truly unavoidable, to de-escalation rather than authoritarianism, to compassion rather than authoritarianism, etc.

and young men are murdered in their girlfriend's apartments (Picard).

Oh, c'mon. PIC itself made it clear that a Tal Shiar hit squad operating on Earth was an unheard of event. Rare outliers are not broad trends.

Its not only the poor who break the law....

No, but the pressures of a hierarchical society are what drive people, of all classes, to commit most of the actions that are criminalized in our society. (And, of course, our law enforcement and judicial systems are heavily biased against those who are poor and racial minorities.)

I would expect every law enforcement station to have a telepath officer that would make the wheels of justice move faster

That sounds like a violation of the right to be secure in one's person against searches and seizures but upon probable cause or a warrant.

 

[Kraig]

There has been plenty of episodes that has been about starship crews dealing with criminals, the most obvious that comes to mind Harry Mudd.

However, I wonder if there is a specific organisation in the Federation dedicated to dealing with cross planet criminality like Interpol and to a sense the FBI in America that deal with crime spanning multiple states?

If there is not then how would interplanetary crime be dealt with in terms of intelligence gathering, jurisdiction and co-ordination between multiple planetary authorities?

IIRC, in the DS9 episode Dax, Sisco talks about extradition treaties between Federation members, but when a Federation member world law enforcement team tries to serve a warrant on DS9 for Dax after kidnapping the Jadzia host for a crime Dax and host Curzon was accused of committing. But since Bajor is not a federation world and DS9 is a Bajoran station he in essence is SOL. The proceeding to determine Dax's fate is held on DS9 by a Bajoran Arbiter.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

IIRC, in the DS9 episode Dax, Sisko talks about extradition treaties between Federation members, but when a Federation member world law enforcement team tries to serve a warrant on DS9

Although Star Charts implies that the Klaestrons are Federation members by 2378, Tandro Jr specifically calls his "extradition procedure" authorised by "The relevant treaty between Klaestron Four and your Federation" which at least implies that they are not Federation members at this point. Kira also describes them as allies of the Cardassians, which would implicitly include during the Fed-Cardassian Wars.

But since Bajor is not a federation world and DS9 is a Bajoran station he in essence is SOL. The proceeding to determine Dax's fate is held on DS9 by a Bajoran Arbiter.

That was basically Bajor indulging "The Emissary's" legal fiction because they like him and are at worst ambivalent to the Federation, whereas they specifically dislike the Klaesterons.

 

[TopperHenly]

Pretty sure this would fall under the jurisdiction of the Federation Security Agency.

I agree that there will always be someone out there doing this or that. But in a society where everyone lives in material comfort and psychological health, these numbers can be driven down to the point where such crimes become extremely, extremely rare. Like, what's the point of committing robbery if wealth inequality is gone or virtually gone? How likely do you think spur-of-the-moment murders would be if everybody received competent mental health care throughout their lives to give them the tools to manage their own emotions and decision-making processes? Hell, we know that things like malnutrition in childhood stemming from parents' poverty can have a devastating impact on children's neurological development, permanently damaging their brains' ability to regulate emotions; how much less violence would there be even if just every single child received good nutrition?

I know it is a bit simplistic but crime today can be broken down to economic and non-economic related. Of course there are overlaps like violent robberies and some countries are going down the route of treating drug addiction as a health/social problem rather than a criminal one.

It is fair to say that in the Star Trek universe that most economic related crime will have disappeared. However, there may be individuals who may want to commit crimes for financial gain in order to accrue non Federation currency for various reasons which I think Vash did in the DS9 ep Q-Less. I'm sure like Mudd, these are outliers.

I'm not sure that non-economic related crime though will be totally eliminated though. What motivated me to start this topic was that I have recently started to read Detective fiction again. In the recent detective novel, from the Inspector Maigret series, the killer was just normal people leading ordinary lives who would never be suspected of such a crime and their motivation was even as banal. Even with the techniques and resources at the disposal of the Federation mentioned in the the above reply, it is obvious that people will slip through and commit crimes.

There is also behaviour that may need to be treated as criminality in the Federation due to the social harm it causes.

In the Star Trek episode The Way to Eden deals with a cult. Although the cult in this episode is small, there could have been other cults that were far larger and could result is having a destabilising influence on various planets throughout the Federation. In this hypothetical situation, a Federation wide response would be needed.

In the TV series Blakes 7, there was a standalone episode that involved a gang of psychotic delinquents called the Space Rats. In the Federation, with economic inequality gone, there could be sections of society with no direction in life and may channel their energies in different way, in the sense of the devil has uses for idle hands. In that way, there could be a phenomenon of the Space Rats in the Federation where the anti-social behaviour would need to be dealt with.

There would need to be a form of police enforcement in the ST universe in order to deal with the criminality that would occur in their society, even though these crimes would be totally different from what we experience now due to the different economic and societal systems. I just find it interesting to speculate how it would occur.

 

[Sci]

There is also behaviour that may need to be treated as criminality in the Federation due to the social harm it causes.

In the Star Trek episode The Way to Eden deals with a cult. Although the cult in this episode is small, there could have been other cults that were far larger and could result is having a destabilising influence on various planets throughout the Federation. In this hypothetical situation, a Federation wide response would be needed.

I mean, in real life, cults as we traditionally conceive of them have rarely become large enough to be genuinely destabilizing. The only cult I can think of that's ever really achieved that kind of social power (of which I'm aware, anyway) is the Mormon Church, which was a destabilizing force before it went off, founded its own colony in what is today Utah, and then agreed to be absorbed back into the U.S.

In the TV series Blakes 7, there was a standalone episode that involved a gang of psychotic delinquents called the Space Rats. In the Federation, with economic inequality gone, there could be sections of society with no direction in life and may channel their energies in different way, in the sense of the devil has uses for idle hands. In that way, there could be a phenomenon of the Space Rats in the Federation where the anti-social behaviour would need to be dealt with.

I think you raise a good point that in a society without material struggle for survival, there's going to be a need to make sure that young people have some sort of direction in life where they can channel their energies and ambitions into something meaningful and socially productive. I think the solution to that is that it's a self-reinforcing system if the Federation tries to consensually channel those passions into the same kinds of vast social support networks necessary to sustain everybody's needs.

There would need to be a form of police enforcement in the ST universe in order to deal with the criminality that would occur in their society, even though these crimes would be totally different from what we experience now due to the different economic and societal systems. I just find it interesting to speculate how it would occur.

That's fair. Personally I would be more comfortable framing them as public safety services than as "police" per se, because I've come to find the term "police" to carry connotations of an authoritarian, white supremacist, classist ethos the more I research how police services function in the modern world.

 

[Nyotarules]

(And, of course, our law enforcement and judicial systems are heavily biased against those who are poor and racial minorities.)

In the Terrancentric Trek universe I would expect nonlooking humans not to be treated as equal as humans, especially in the early UFP years.
Technological and social advancement does not mean prejudices disappear. (e.g Terra Prime)

 

[Sci]

In the Terrancentric Trek universe I would expect nonlooking humans not to be treated as equal as humans, especially in the early UFP years.
Technological and social advancement does not mean prejudices disappear. (e.g Terra Prime)

I find that argument perplexing -- United Earth was already militarily inferior to Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar (having literally only two starships deployed outside of the Sol system and capable of reaching warp 5) before the Romulan War. I can buy the idea that Earth becomes the Federation capital planet because it's the "honest broker" whom all the other early Federates trust. But the idea that Earth would be influential enough to pressure the Federation government into treating 60% of the Federation's entire membership as inferior to Humans in the public safety and judiciary spheres, seems implausible.

Edited to add:

Side-note. We know from ST09 that Vulcan in the Kelvin Timeline had a population of approximately 6 billion in 2258. Assuming that that's the standard number, and that the populations of any colony worlds are general marginal, then the early Federation (including Alpha Centauri as a separate member rather than U.E. colony) would have a population of approximately 30 billion, of which Humans would only be around 12 billion. There's no way a population of 12 billion could dominate a population of 18 billion who were already military superior to the former.

 

[Tenacity]

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[Timo]

It's not particularly convincing to see prejudice as a numbers game. Basically every empire in history has featured the rule of the few over the many, even though the many were initially opposed to the few and the sum total of their potential to oppose would have crushed not only the power of the few, but also the total power of the resultant empire. Say, the British policed the world with a handful of weak units, on the very premise that the vast armies they subjugated were inferior by nature and birth, the proof being in the pudding of them not being successful in either resisting initially or revolting later on.

The Federation supposedly started out small, like the British structure. Would there have been a bump in the road early on, when the initial "opponents" of Earth outnumbered her not just through an abstract "sum total", but by their very presence? Only if they combined their forces in practice - and ENT made a good job showing how this was utterly unlikely.

To simplify:

Earth: "We propose that Tellarites be considered inferior."
Vulcan, Andor: "Yay! Cheers! This is highly acceptable."
Earth: "We further propose that Andorians be considered inferior."
Tellar, Vulcan: "Fascinating. But appropriate. Please proceed. Up yours, antennaheads!"
Earth: "Finally, we propose that Vulcans be considered inferior."
Andor, Tellar: "Absolutely! Finally! Crush them!"
Earth: "Thank you. Now get me a beer."

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tesral]

When it has come up in game, and due to the presence of the Verifier in Trek, that is the truth will be known, we have followed a pattern established by H. Beam Piper who had the veradicator, a device of similar function.

Trials come in two phases: First the finding of fact. "What Happened". Fact only. I.E. "Jones Killed Smith." How when and with what are part of this. 4 PM in the arboretum, with the hydrospanner.

Second is the reason, the finding of fault.. Guilt or innocence can hinge on motivation. If the finding is that Jones Killed Smith because Smith was trying to kill him, that is self defense. If he killed Smith just to watch him die, that was murder. So the "Why" is vital.

This follows our common pattern of filling in the all to frequent holes in Trek with the work of other authors that is even the least vaguely similar. You will not get total verisimilitude from a weekly Tee Vee show. Continuity is too much to ask.

 

[Sci]

It's not particularly convincing to see prejudice as a numbers game. Basically every empire in history has featured the rule of the few over the many, even though the many were initially opposed to the few and the sum total of their potential to oppose would have crushed not only the power of the few, but also the total power of the resultant empire. Say, the British policed the world with a handful of weak units, on the very premise that the vast armies they subjugated were inferior by nature and birth, the proof being in the pudding of them not being successful in either resisting initially or revolting later on.

The Federation supposedly started out small, like the British structure. Would there have been a bump in the road early on, when the initial "opponents" of Earth outnumbered her not just through an abstract "sum total", but by their very presence? Only if they combined their forces in practice - and ENT made a good job showing how this was utterly unlikely.

To simplify:

Earth: "We propose that Tellarites be considered inferior."
Vulcan, Andor: "Yay! Cheers! This is highly acceptable."
Earth: "We further propose that Andorians be considered inferior."
Tellar, Vulcan: "Fascinating. But appropriate. Please proceed. Up yours, antennaheads!"
Earth: "Finally, we propose that Vulcans be considered inferior."
Andor, Tellar: "Absolutely! Finally! Crush them!"
Earth: "Thank you. Now get me a beer."

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, still not buying that Earth could subordinate three other worlds when they literally only had two starships deployed outside the Sol system the year before the Romulan War began.

 

[Shawnster]

2. Who's to say Harry is from the Federation?

Irrelevant. People from other countries come to the US and commit a crime, they are still pursued and tried by the US legal system. Doesn't matter if they are from the US or not.

Harry Mudd committed crimes in the Federation.

 

[Sgt_G]

And then there was this guy ...

He wore a mask long before masks were cool.

 

[Sci]

Irrelevant. People from other countries come to the US and commit a crime, they are still pursued and tried by the US legal system. Doesn't matter if they are from the US or not.

Harry Mudd committed crimes in the Federation.

It's relevant if the topic is making a point about the overwhelming majority of Federation citizens rather than about what the UFP does with rare outliers.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, still not buying that Earth could subordinate three other worlds when they literally only had two starships deployed outside the Sol system the year before the Romulan War began.

Well, the US was a bit player before WWI and had no navy. It was the most powerful military force on the planet after WWI and had not just the biggest navy in practice, but also the ability to make it ten tines bigger on a whim in case somebody needed crushing. So if it's muscle that defines attitude and law, Earth might just happen to be like that.

Although why Earth would need muscle in order to be an asshole is unclear. Writing of words on paper only takes arrogance. And the idea was just that Earth would spit on alien scum, not that the UFP would vote on this being a splendid idea overall; possibly Vulcans would spit on alien scum from their POV, too (I mean, they still very much do later on!) etc. and racist ideas would lie at the very heart of UFP legislation, due to it not being particularly federal in its origins.

Or due to a Vulcan pointing out that racism really was the only way to proceed, for that matter. The different biologies of the different member species would already affect how they experience punishment, so such systems would need to be racially tailored in order to be egalitarian. And separating racial from racist is pretty hopeless in practice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kirby]

I always assumed that there was some sort of Starfleet version of NCIS, but we just never saw it since the individual ship's security teams just handled most everything themselves.
We sort of saw something on DS9 with their version of Mulder and Scully and their temporal investigation.

 

[Nyotarules]

But the idea that Earth would be influential enough to pressure the Federation government into treating 60% of the Federation's entire membership as inferior to Humans in the public safety and judiciary spheres, seems implausible.

I was referring to human behaviour not legislation. RL legislation does not support personal prejudices based on race and gender however this does not mean individual humans do not behave in a racist or sexist manner. There is a reason why McCoy has an issue with Spock's heritage and Stiles behaves the way he does in Balance of Terror. In universe Starfleet reeks of Terran privilege

 

[Sci]

I always assumed that there was some sort of Starfleet version of NCIS, but we just never saw it since the individual ship's security teams just handled most everything themselves.
We sort of saw something on DS9 with their version of Mulder and Scully and their temporal investigation.

Except the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations appears to be a civilian agency, like a sort of FBI for time travel shenanigans.

 

[Kirby]

In the real world, NCIS is a civilian organization as well, it's just a little more boring than the show depicts.

 

[Sci]

In the real world, NCIS is a civilian organization as well, it's just a little more boring than the show depicts.

Just verified that with Wikipedia. I stand corrected!

For whatever it's worth, the novels have established the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations as a separate department of the Federation executive branch entirely, whereas the real life Naval Criminal Investigative Service is an agency within the Department of the Navy, which is itself part of the Department of Defense.