Creationism Banned In U.K. Schools

[Relayer1]

The U.K. Government and I agree about very little. They're a bunch of right wing zealots and the Education Secretary is deeply ignorant with regards to most matters of education. However, I think a round of applause is required for this new ruling :

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...ationism-schools_n_5511010.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Good for them.
The fact that an explicit ban is needed to get proper science into classrooms is the sad part.

And, apparently they have yet to make sure that religious schools who will continue to teach creationism stop receiving state funding and tax exemptions.

 

[Skellington]

This is welcome at any time, but it's kind of a pity that it didn't happen decades and decades ago.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

It's hard to imagine that any civilized country still would need to forbid teaching that nonsense nowadays. I'm not sure for how long it hasn't been taught in Germany, but it was at least for the last 80 years.

 

[Relayer1]

To be honest, we probably didn't need to legislate gainst it until fairly recently - no one would have given it any thought.

Unfortunately, religious groups are setting up their own schools and there seems to be special consideration given to religion thesedays. This is something of a check and balance.

 

[gturner]

Yes. The move is probably aimed at Islamic schools.

 

[Amaris]

Good for the U.K. I hope they do the same here in the U.S., though it's unlikely.

 

[gturner]

I don't think they can in the US, due to the Bill of Rights. As long as a private school meets basic educational guidelines (ie, the students can read, do math, and get most students to pass a state test), whatever else they teach is their own business.

 

[HIjol]

Always a bone of contention in the States, but usually a more local/regional issue...nonetheless, one of my teachers here was previously an Administrator for 35 years, and absolutely believes there was a Pre-Adamite civilization on Earth, and does not subscribe to the "theory" of Evolution...he is rational and balanced and an excellent teacher and person...just goes to show that it really does take all manner of perspectives to make a world...

 

[Yminale]

As much as I want to cheer, this is just more proof that the UK is becoming more fascist. In most European countries you can go to jail for denying the Holocaust. All ideas should be protected even the bad ones because there is no inherent truth only consensus. Remember once upon a time you could be jailed for teaching evolution.

 

[{ Emilia }]

As much as I want to cheer, this is just more proof that the UK is becoming more fascist.

You didn't just write that...

All ideas should be protected even the bad ones

The right to believe in creationism is still protected in the UK. Nobody is being oppressed or put in jail because they believe it. It's just that bullshit isn't taught in schools because it's got nothing to do with actual education.

Likewise the government also doesn't give a damn if you believe that all members of the government are lizard aliens who are out to enslave the human race.
It's just that you can't teach that in state-funded schools.

Because (you guessed it) it's bullshit that doesn't hold up to scientific standards.

 

[gturner]

But Hamlet isn't true either. It's just some BS that Shakespeare made up.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

All ideas should be protected even the bad ones because there is no inherent truth only consensus.

Oh? So in your opinion if I wanted to open a school that teaches Pastafarianism or that we are hold to the ground by invisible pixies instead of that ridiculous gravity thing, it would be ok because all ideas must be protected?
And since I am doing a Community Service with that school I would be entitled to state funding and tax exemption!
Right?

 

[Yminale]

As much as I want to cheer, this is just more proof that the UK is becoming more fascist.

You didn't just write that...

The UK is a more fascist country than the US. UK government can seize you without trial and hold you indefinitely. The whole idea of "military" tribunals came from the UK which were used during "the Troubles" and are still in place. Torture is still allowed even though it's technically illegal. Then there all the public cameras.

The right to believe in creationism is still protected in the UK.

Only ideas approved by the government are "protected"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_Kingdom

Nobody is being oppressed or put in jail because they believe it. It's just that bullshit isn't taught in schools because it's got nothing to do with actual education.

It's only a matter of time before they do.

 

[Yminale]

All ideas should be protected even the bad ones because there is no inherent truth only consensus.

Oh? So in your opinion if I wanted to open a school that teaches Pastafarianism or that we are hold to the ground by invisible pixies instead of that ridiculous gravity thing, it would be ok because all ideas must be protected?

Sure why not. It's your school.

And since I am doing a Community Service with that school I would be entitled to state funding and tax exemption!
Right?

Hey if you can convince your state, good for you ...

 

[{ Emilia }]

But Hamlet isn't true either. It's just some BS that Shakespeare made up.

I have no problem with teachers talking about creationism if it's treated as a work of fiction.

Cause... that's what it is. Obviously that shouldn't be taking place in any science classes.

 

[{ Emilia }]

The UK is a more fascist country than the US.

America has developed some traits of a fun little police state in the last decades, not just after 9/11. It includes a heavily armed police and a restriction of civil liberties that started during the Bush years. Yet I still wouldn't claim it's fascist in any way, shape or form.
That's because I know what fascism actually is.

UK government can seize you without trial and hold you indefinitely.

From gov.uk:
The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they have to charge you with a crime or release you.

They can apply to hold you for up to 36 or 96 hours if you’re suspected of a serious crime, eg murder.

You can be held without charge for up to 14 days If you’re arrested under the Terrorism Act.

Nobody is being oppressed or put in jail because they believe it. It's just that bullshit isn't taught in schools because it's got nothing to do with actual education.

It's only a matter of time before they do.

That is a logical fallacy. It's absurd to think that every restriction is bound to escalate and you know it.

I gotta say your post was probably the most ridiculous and stupid shit I've read all week and I'm not sure I should even bother to keep explaining why that's the case.

 

[gturner]

Hey, America's police state is so inept that they can't find any of the 22 million Mexicans living here illegally. If you're about to miss your plane you have to claim to be an Islamic jihadist so they'll wave you past the security checkpoints.

 

[MacLeod]

As much as I want to cheer, this is just more proof that the UK is becoming more fascist.

You didn't just write that...

The UK is a more fascist country than the US. UK government can seize you without trial and hold you indefinitely. The whole idea of "military" tribunals came from the UK which were used during "the Troubles" and are still in place. Torture is still allowed even though it's technically illegal. Then there all the public cameras.

The right to believe in creationism is still protected in the UK.

Only ideas approved by the government are "protected"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_Kingdom

Nobody is being oppressed or put in jail because they believe it. It's just that bullshit isn't taught in schools because it's got nothing to do with actual education.

It's only a matter of time before they do.

No torture is not allowed in the UK is Illegal(which you point out), Illegal means not allowed.

The European Convention of Human rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Article_3_-_torture

Universal Decleration of Human Rights


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

UN Convetion Against Torture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Convention_Against_Torture


Someone has already addressed the limits on how long Police can hold you.

How is the US doing in that regard, have for example all prisoners been in Guantanamo Bay either been released, or have they had a fair trail before a jury of their peers yet?


You mean all those CCTV cameras that can be used in evidence should you be a victim of crime or commit a crime?

 

[rhubarbodendron]

Allow me to consider myself an expert on fascism, being a native German, and therefore to add my 2 cents:

The UK is a more fascist country than the US.

I completely disagree. In the UK you can't build a concentration camp and hold people as young as 13 there for far more than a decade without so much as raising an official accusation. This is however possible in the US: Quantanamo.
Under Bush an order was issued that any lawyer who dared defend an inmate of Quantanamo would be sent there rthemselves (again, without a trial). That order was kept rather secret. My source is a personal friend who is a lawyer in San Francisco.

I was shocked and horrified when visiting the US that Nazis can hold public meetings there and antiques shops sell Nazi items for which you'd instantly go to prison in Germany and most other European countries.

When it comes to racism, the US are approximately equal with most European countries. Britain seems a good deal better in that respect, though, possibly because they still have their Commonwealth.

The US pride themselves of allowing everyone to believe (and teach) what they like. But - as Orwell already pointed out - there are some who are more equal than others. Communist and muslim teachings are not being tolerated, in spite of what the law says.
Christian religious nutcases on the other hand are pampered and can spread their creationist nonsense to their hearts' delight.

No offense meant but the US are a fairly young country, compared to European, Asian or African countries. To us 200 years are just a wink. We count our political history in milennia. Whatever mistakes the US make, we've already been there and lived through it. We developed further and tried to learn from past mistakes.
The US are just repeating all our previous mistakes which makes us rather nervous as we are aware of the risks. That makes us possibly a bit impatient and patronizing.
Still, I think the US could massively profit from our experience if they'd only start to listen to advice. They remind me a little of kids whom you can tell a zillion times not to touch the hot oven and who will inevitably keep trying till they burn themselves really badly.

Again: no offense meant to the US in general and to every citizen in particular. We are all aware that the individual citizen thinks an many matters very different than his/her government.