Countdown #4

[Christopher]

It's not the same at all, since as far as we know, the Mirror Universe was not the result of time travel. Indeed, it couldn't be. A timeline is not a universe. A universe is a distinct, physical location. A timeline is more like an idea, a concept, a version of events.

But that just means "Mirror Universe" is a misnomer. It has the same laws of physics, the same planets, the same species, the same individuals, the same ships -- only the historical details are different. That can't be anything but an alternate timeline. Something that's literally a different universe wouldn't have any of those commonalities; it would be something totally different, perhaps even down to the physical laws. Species 8472's fluidic space, for instance, is another universe.

Tons of SF shows, movies, and prose tales use "universe" and "timeline" interchangeably. So you mustn't take the terminology too literally. Most of the time, what's called a universe in a story is really a parallel timeline.

And it's an entirely natural reaction to immediately assume that ST XI obliterated existing continuity. In all previous instances of time travel, the new timeline did exactly that: overwrote the old. Now, suddenly, the rules have changed? That's a bit odd, innit?

We don't know that any "overwriting" happened in most cases; it could simply be that the characters moved from one timeline to another. And "Parallels" made it a canonical part of Trek physics that alternate timelines do coexist side by side, so there's definitely a precedent besides the Mirror Universe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But that just means "Mirror Universe" is a misnomer. It has the same laws of physics, the same planets, the same species, the same individuals, the same ships -- only the historical details are different. That can't be anything but an alternate timeline.

An alternate universe can also have alternate history. Look at all of those "Parallels" universes. Some of those were wildly different. Indeed, in a very real sense, it is at the same time infinitely likely, and infinitely unlikely, that the MU could have the particular version of history that it did. There are an infinite number of universes, after all.

And even so, there's no evidence that the MU (assuming you believe it is a timeline and not a universe) is the result of time travel.

We don't know that any "overwriting" happened in most cases; it could simply be that the characters moved from one timeline to another.

So what happened to the original, then? What are you suggesting happened to those characters that were *supposed* to exist in those alternate timelines?

 

[Ayelbourne]

But that just means "Mirror Universe" is a misnomer. It has the same laws of physics, the same planets, the same species, the same individuals, the same ships -- only the historical details are different. That can't be anything but an alternate timeline. Something that's literally a different universe wouldn't have any of those commonalities; it would be something totally different, perhaps even down to the physical laws. Species 8472's fluidic space, for instance, is another universe.

This link was posted today in one of the STIX threads, and I think it explains the difference between alternate timelines and alternate universes quite well.

 

[Stevil2001]

An alternate universe can also have alternate history. Look at all of those "Parallels" universes. Some of those were wildly different. Indeed, in a very real sense, it is at the same time infinitely likely, and infinitely unlikely, that the MU could have the particular version of history that it did. There are an infinite number of universes, after all.

And even so, there's no evidence that the MU (assuming you believe it is a timeline and not a universe) is the result of time travel.

Everything we saw in "Parallels" were also alternate timelines, not universes, as Christopher is using the term.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

An alternate universe can also have alternate history. Look at all of those "Parallels" universes. Some of those were wildly different. Indeed, in a very real sense, it is at the same time infinitely likely, and infinitely unlikely, that the MU could have the particular version of history that it did. There are an infinite number of universes, after all.

And even so, there's no evidence that the MU (assuming you believe it is a timeline and not a universe) is the result of time travel.

Everything we saw in "Parallels" were also alternate timelines, not universes

I'm not following. They were clearly alternate universes. Data said as much when they took Worf's tricorder readings.

 

[Stevil2001]

Everything we saw in "Parallels" were also alternate timelines, not universes

I'm not following. They were clearly alternate universes. Data said as much when they took Worf's tricorder readings.

Christopher already explained it:

But that just means "Mirror Universe" is a misnomer. It has the same laws of physics, the same planets, the same species, the same individuals, the same ships -- only the historical details are different. That can't be anything but an alternate timeline. Something that's literally a different universe wouldn't have any of those commonalities; it would be something totally different, perhaps even down to the physical laws. Species 8472's fluidic space, for instance, is another universe.

Tons of SF shows, movies, and prose tales use "universe" and "timeline" interchangeably. So you mustn't take the terminology too literally. Most of the time, what's called a universe in a story is really a parallel timeline.

Star Trek applies the terminology somewhat sloppily. The Mirror Universe is actually a parallel timeline, since it obviously diverged from the "real" timeline at some point. Ditto for all the "Parallels" universes. Ditto for all the Myriad Universes universes. Star Trek stories depicting wholly alternate universes are actually very rare.


It occurs to me that there's a precedent for alternate timelines created through time travel living on in both Crucible: McCoy and Myriad Universes: The Chimes at Midnight. These were both "repaired" but apparently continued to exist.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Mirror Universe is actually a parallel timeline, since it obviously diverged from the "real" timeline at some point.

How so?

Just because there's so many similarities of character names and all that? That's not evidence. It's a coincidence. Remember what I said about, in an infinite number of universes, the chances of the MU turning out the way it did are therefore at the same time infinitely GOOD and infinitely REMOTE.

The way you describe truly alternate universes....it seems like Heinlein's The Number Of The Beast's depiction of alternate *dimensions*.

 

[Christopher]

Just because there's so many similarities of character names and all that? That's not evidence. It's a coincidence. Remember what I said about, in an infinite number of universes, the chances of the MU turning out the way it did are therefore at the same time infinitely GOOD and infinitely REMOTE.

And I recall explaining to you in great depth, sometime last year, why that conclusion is based on a totally incorrect set of assumptions about how probability works. But since you obviously didn't listen then, there's no point in explaining it again.

 

[Andrew Harris]

The Mirror Universe is actually a parallel timeline, since it obviously diverged from the "real" timeline at some point.

How so?

Just because there's so many similarities of character names and all that? That's not evidence. It's a coincidence. Remember what I said about, in an infinite number of universes, the chances of the MU turning out the way it did are therefore at the same time infinitely GOOD and infinitely REMOTE.

The way you describe truly alternate universes....it seems like Heinlein's The Number Of The Beast's depiction of alternate *dimensions*.

Actually, the whole "infinite number of universes" thing is itself a bit misstated, since infinity is a concept, not a number.

Or, think about it this way: if we imagine infinity to be the way you are using it (that is to mean, every possibility, not just endless possibilities) then--in an "infinite number of universes"--there wouldn't just be an infinite number of different universes, but an infinite number of identical ones as well.

That is to say: if we include every possibility, then there's got to be at least one that's identical. And by accepting at least one, then there have to be at least two (which is also a "possibility"); and so then at least three, and four, five, etc.--all the way to infinity.

In other words, there'd be an infinite number of different alternate universes, of every possibility, each of which have an infinite number of identical alternates. At which point the whole purpose of the conversation itself disintegrates.

(It should also be pointed out that with the infinity-includes-every-possibility miscalculation, every bad fanfic, slashfic, etc. would also automatically be guaranteed to actually exist--and infinitely, too...)

 

[Christopher]

^You're right. Arguments based in the assumption that infinity is an actual quantity are invalid. Infinity isn't a number, but a mathematical limit: something that can be moved toward but never actually reached. So just saying "If there's an infinite number of universes" is enough to render the argument false right there. There isn't an infinite number of universes; there can't be, because the very phrase is meaningless. Any number is finite by definition.

Also, just because there's no theoretical limit on the number of realities that can potentially exist doesn't mean that every possible universe automatically does exist. That's the completely false interpretation of probability that I mentioned before.

 

[foravalon]

Just because there's so many similarities of character names and all that? That's not evidence. It's a coincidence. Remember what I said about, in an infinite number of universes, the chances of the MU turning out the way it did are therefore at the same time infinitely GOOD and infinitely REMOTE.

And I recall explaining to you in great depth, sometime last year, why that conclusion is based on a totally incorrect set of assumptions about how probability works. But since you obviously didn't listen then, there's no point in explaining it again.

Ahhh, Classic Christopher. All this talk of alternate realities, I'm sure glad that some things remain constant.

 

[Nerroth]

What's a spork? Vulcan kitchen cutlery?

That's classified information.



Anyway, I got the TPB today (should a new thread for it be set up, or will this thread suffice?) and the story as a whole isn't bad...

...though I will still miss Romulus (from the non-Star Fleet Universe timelines, that is).



Also, I found a couple of the easter eggs on different panels' LCARS displays, and they are neat!

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I wonder if IDW (or Pocket, for that matter) is planning any sort of follow-up to the 24th-century part of Countdown. The destruction of Romulus at the end of issue #2 is going to have galactopolitical repercussions.

I also wonder if Romulus' destruction is mentioned in the film on-screen; if so, the books will have to address it eventually anyway.

The latter third of the 24th-century is a pretty crappy time to live in, it seems.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I also wonder if Romulus' destruction is mentioned in the film on-screen; if so, the books will have to address it eventually anyway.

I seem to recall Nero's wife being identified on early cast lists, so there's at least a flashback, I would guess.

 

[Christopher]

I seem to recall Nero's wife being identified on early cast lists....

Which one? Claudia, Poppea, or Statilia?

 

[DarKush]

Just finished the TPB. I enjoyed it. Though I can understand the criticisms about it being a fanwank.

I found Nero a bit reminiscent of Khan, with some elements of Soran and Shinzon thrown in too, particularly Shinzon. However, I think Nero's target for revenge is more simple and understandable than Shinzon's was. I give TPTB credit for at least making the main villain an actual Romulan this time.

The Narada also reminds me of the Scmitar. I had a hard time believing that a bunch of miners, even in a souped up ship, could wreak so much havoc, but at least the writers acknowledged that through the Ayel character. The Narada looked cool, but was given some unbelievable powers.

At first I was put off by Data's return, esp. through B4, but after reading the entire story, I didn't mind it so much. It was good seeing him again. I also didn't mind moving Picard off the Enterprise, and possibly more towards the All Good Things future. The change for Geordi was fine too, though I wouldn't have minded either him or Worf being in command of the Enterprise instead of Data.

I wasn't expecting the destruction of Romulus-I love the Romulans, but shaking up the status quo isn't a bad thing, plus some Romulans did survive, so they weren't totally wiped out. I also thought they had boldly killed off Worf, but I don't mind really if he'll survive. Though I would've liked more of an explanation why he's a Klingon general.

The Vulcans behavior was off to me, and it reminded me more of the pre-Reformation Vulcans from ENT than the TOS/TNG era. I don't get the reference to a Vulcan Praetor. I'm guessing its not the equivalent of the Romulan Praetor, but that was never quite explained. I also don't get why they see Spock as a traitor. Surely some other Vulcans are seeking reunification with the Romulans as well.

How going through the wormhole sends them back in time wasn't explained either, though I hope we'll get that explanation in the movie.

Overall, not bad. I liked the uniforms, the guest appearances, and the alternate take on the Trek future, which seems different from where the novels are heading.

 

[Christopher]

How going through the wormhole sends them back in time wasn't explained either, though I hope we'll get that explanation in the movie.

Wormholes can just as easily be portals through time as through space. That's intrinsic to the theory. For Trek precedent, consider VGR: "Eye of the Needle," in which the wormhole had a differential of 20 years from one end to the other.

 

[Stevil2001]

^ Or "Accession," where the Bajoran Wormhole sends Akorem through time.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I also don't get why they see Spock as a traitor. Surely some other Vulcans are seeking reunification with the Romulans as well.

The upcoming mini-series Spock Reflections is supposed to cover that.

 

[DarKush]

I also don't get why they see Spock as a traitor. Surely some other Vulcans are seeking reunification with the Romulans as well.

The upcoming mini-series Spock Reflections is supposed to cover that.

Thanks. I really hope the Vulcans don't go back to their pre-Reformation ways. I couldn't stand their portrayal on ENT. Anyway, I look forward to checking out Spock Reflections. Is it a comic?