Could the Baul be Ferengi?

[Locutus of Bored]

really? who's 'slave' is moogie supossed to be then?

Her original husband and then Quark as the eldest and wealthiest son, and almost the Ferengi Commerce Authority who were going to take her from Quark and sell her into indentured servitude for earning illegal profits as a woman.

Also, pointing out the example of the outlier who actually brought about change in Ferengi society doesn't invalidate the hundreds of millions or billions of others still living in even worse conditions.

 

[oberth]

to be a slave you need to be the official posession of someone. she never was. indentured servitude is not slavery. we may consider ferengi traditions and laws abhorable but slavery it is not (as to ferengi women).

slaves can be sold. never heard a rule of acquisition about selling ferengi women. i also don't recall quark talking about someone who trades in women of any kind.

do they want to sell t'pol and the other women to the orions? yes. i don't know whether that is illegal under ferengi laws. it's probably the usual 'as long as you don't get caught'.

big bad words should be kept holstered for big bad deads.

no offence intented

 

[Locutus of Bored]

to be a slave you need to be the official posession of someone. she never was. indentured servitude is not slavery. we may consider ferengi traditions and laws abhorable but slavery it is not (as to ferengi women).

slaves can be sold. never heard a rule of acquisition about selling ferengi women. i also don't recall quark talking about someone who trades in women of any kind.

do they want to sell t'pol and the other women to the orions? yes. i don't know whether that is illegal under ferengi laws. it's probably the usual 'as long as you don't get caught'.

big bad words should be kept holstered for big bad deads.

no offence intented

I just gave you two examples of Ferengi taking and trading non-Ferengi slaves from TNG and ENT, and in the latter example women being sold into the slave trade specifically, but it doesn't count as slavery if the Ferengi themselves don't explicitly call it slavery and don't get caught? Nice loophole.

Ishka was the possession of her husband and then when he died, her son. That's why Quark was responsible for reimbursing the state for the profits she earned illegally as a woman. She was specifically mentioned as potentially being sold by Brunt and the FCA as punishment for earning profits. The indentured servitude was the period of time where she would no longer be considered the possession of Quark, then she would revert to being his property again once the debt was repaid.

"On my world, women aren't allowed to leave the house, or wear clothes, or learn to read."
Pel in DS9 - Rules of Acquisition

Which one of these do you not consider "big bad deeds" worthy of the name?

 

[The Wormhole]

Was that the Doctor Who crossover episode of TOS featuring the Eleventh Doctor?

Nah, but the Eleventh Doctor considers those guys to be Star Trek's coolest aliens.

 

[oberth]

I just gave you two examples of Ferengi taking and trading non-Ferengi slaves from TNG and ENT, and in the latter example women being sold into the slave trade specifically

the proto/beta ferengi in rascals can hardly count, as they got a total revamp after that (not the way they are looking) they just didn't work that way and needed to be re-invented. if they called it rosegarden it would still be slavery (if it was).

but it doesn't count as slavery if the Ferengi themselves don't explicitly call it slavery and don't get caught? Nice loophole.

i didn't say that. i said it's probably illegal but they don't care as long as nobody gets caught. and these ferengi are criminals who actively rob an alian starship, anyway.

Ishka was the possession of her husband and then when he died, her son. That's why Quark was responsible for reimbursing the state for the profits she earned illegally as a woman. She was specifically mentioned as potentially being sold by Brunt and the FCA as punishment for earning profits. The indentured servitude was the period of time where she would no longer be considered the possession of Quark, then she would revert to being his property again once the debt was repaid.

where is ever a statement that she is the posession of either of those? they are responsible for keeping her 'in line' but if she shows remorese and guves back the earnings they're not in trouble. quark can't force her to give back the dosh. if she can have her own free will and bring anybody in trouble for it she's not a slave. if she were a slave quark could give back the cash, case closed. he can't.

you describe indentured servitude correctly but whether brunt says it that way or not what is sold is not the person but the right to exploit said person until the debt is repaid.

"On my world, women aren't allowed to leave the house, or wear clothes, or learn to read."
Pel in DS9 - Rules of Acquisition

none of which makes them slaves

Which one of these do you not consider "big bad deeds" worthy of the name?

all of them - the big dead (and only that makes somebody a slave) is owning a sentient being.

i will come back to this later today - after i rewatched rules of acquisition slowly.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

the proto/beta ferengi in rascals can hardly count, as they got a total revamp after that (not the way they are looking) they just didn't work that way and needed to be re-invented. if they called it rosegarden it would still be slavery (if it was).



i didn't say that. i said it's probably illegal but they don't care as long as nobody gets caught. and these ferengi are criminals who actively rob an alian starship, anyway.

That's the point, the situation on Kaminar may not be caused by reputable Ferengi traders but pirates and criminals who call themselves Ba'ul.

And perhaps only the viewers will know that they are Ferengi. Similar to the ENT episode, they appeared in, the name of the species may not be mentioned.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

OMG!!! Now i'm entirely convinced of my theory!

It was right before my eyes. Why couldn't i have seen it sooner?

Remember in Season 1 there was a reference to the kelpian homeworld as Kelpia.

When the Short Treks arrived, the writers changed the planet name to Kaminar.

What's the name of the Ferengi homeworld? Ferenginar, of course. As we all know.

Ferenginar
Kaminar

Maybe (i)nar is a ferengi term for planet or place...

 

[DaveyNY]

I still think tis more than a bit of a stretch to believe the Ferengi are involved, but I'm willing to acknowledge your moment of glory if it turns out to be true.

 

[oberth]

I still think is more than a bit of a stretch to believe the Ferengi are involved, but I'm willing to acknowledge your moment of glory if it turns out to be true.

yep, and i'm also willing to burry this thread gently if he happens to be wrong (which is sooooo much more likely)

 

[Locutus of Bored]

the proto/beta ferengi in rascals can hardly count, as they got a total revamp after that (not the way they are looking) they just didn't work that way and needed to be re-invented. if they called it rosegarden it would still be slavery (if it was).

i didn't say that. i said it's probably illegal but they don't care as long as nobody gets caught. and these ferengi are criminals who actively rob an alian starship, anyway.

where is ever a statement that she is the posession of either of those? they are responsible for keeping her 'in line' but if she shows remorese and guves back the earnings they're not in trouble. quark can't force her to give back the dosh. if she can have her own free will and bring anybody in trouble for it she's not a slave. if she were a slave quark could give back the cash, case closed. he can't.

you describe indentured servitude correctly but whether brunt says it that way or not what is sold is not the person but the right to exploit said person until the debt is repaid.

none of which makes them slaves

all of them - the big dead (and only that makes somebody a slave) is owning a sentient being.

i will come back to this later today - after i rewatched rules of acquisition slowly.

Women are considered property in Ferengi society. They're leased by their fathers to their prospective husbands. Their wombs are rented out by their fathers or husbands. Just because you rebrand Ferengi Fried Slavery as FFS doesn't make it stop being slavery.

DS9 - Doctor Bashir, I Presume:
QUARK: Thank the Nagus that you didn't. Remember what happened with Nog's mother? Yeah, don't want to think about her, do you. Let me refresh your memory. You signed a standard five year marriage contract with Prinadora's father because you wanted to have a child. A simple everyday business deal. But then you fell in love with your wife and wanted to extend the contract. And you were so in love that you never bothered to read the extension before signing it. So in the end, her father swindled you out of all your money.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/514.htm

DS9 - Nor the Battle to the Strong:
QUARK: As the lessee, he does have certain rights. Back home, pregnancy is considered a rental.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/502.htm

Though the Ferengi claimed that their society had never engaged in slavery, women in their culture were still considered property and had no rights. (DS9: "The Jem'Hadar", DS9: "Family Business")
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Slavery

Though slavery (of men) was unknown in Ferengi society, exploitation was the rule.

However, the Ferengi managed to avoid many of the worst aspects of an evolving culture and their social history was notable for the absence of atrocities such as slavery or genocide, a distinction the Ferengi felt made them morally superior (though their definition of "slavery" clearly did not extend to their treatment of women).

Ferengi showed themselves willing to engage in slave-trading and the capturing of aliens for slave labor if profitable. (ENT: "Acquisition"; TNG: "Rascals")
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi

While it's by no means the end all and be all of an argument, Memory Alpha certainly seems to agree with me that the conditions Ferengi women are held in are slavery.

You discount an earlier account of Ferengi behavior as "proto-Ferengis", yet your whole argument is set around defending Quark's rose-colored defense of his culture against Sisko's criticism. Meanwhile, in Quark's own words women are treated like property.

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's a waste of time.

 

[Kor]

The Ferengi eat grubs. Kelpians would give them indigestion.

Kor

 

[Unimatrix Q]

The Ferengi eat grubs. Kelpians would give them indigestion.

Kor

Never meant that Ferengi would eat them, just that they might sell them or butcher them for their meat. Which they may sell to their customers.

But to play devil's advocate for the eating part, there might be little difference in taste and consistency between kelpian ganglia and tube grubs

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Have put up a poll for this thread and edited my first post with additional information.

 

[Kor]

"Ba'ul" sounds like something from Stargate: SG1.

Kor

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Really wondering why apparently most people here can't imagine that the Ba'ul might be Ferengi, because there are as many or even more possible hints for this being true than there were for Mirror Lorca during last season...

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Another possible hint:

https://www.trektoday.com/content/2019/01/saru-in-discoverys-season-two-a-return/

" "Because I’m leaving a pre-warp society secretly, and joining a warp society. And so now what? I can’t go back with the knowledge that I have. That would ruin their own natural growth, right? So how do I get back to Kaminar, then. This is going to be a conflict and – yes, there’s a lot at stake here, for Saru. And I learn things this year about myself, and some things come up that challenge my perception of what it is to be a Kelpien, what I thought I knew about being a Kelpien. There’s so much, my world’s a little bit rocked. And going back to Kaminar: can I share what I know? Wow, right? Mystery!" "

Hmm...

Edit:

And another one...

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/mackinnon-familiar-aliens-in-season-two-of-discovery.297963/

 

[Unimatrix Q]

From now on if articles are released that might hint at the Ferengi, i add the links in my first post.

 

[Kor]

I don't want to see any significant Ferengi presence in STDsc. It was bad enough to see them in ENT, when in the time of TNG S1, they were supposed to be this mysterious people that the Federation hardly knew anything about and hadn't even had official first contact with.

Kor

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I don't want to see any significant Ferengi presence in STDsc. It was bad enough to see them in ENT, when in the time of TNG S1, they were supposed to be this mysterious people that the Federation hardly knew anything about and hadn't even had official first contact with.

Kor

It's illogical to think there were no Ferengi in the space known by the Federation during the 23rd century. And trek canon was already often enough changed by the writers for new episodes before.

Especially things about the Ferengi and the Borg. Compare the Ferengi in "The last Outpost" with the DS9 Ferengi for example.

And maybe it's similar to ENT, where the name of the species wasn't mentioned and only we, the fans, knew who they were.