Could Star Trek V been saved?
- Thread starter tim0122
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I think you underestimate Scottish stubbornness.
Shatner's original concept had Kirk (of course) as basically the only one in the galaxy who managed to resist Sybok. Which is patently ridiculous, of course. Fortunately, Nimoy and Kelly pushed back on that and essentially refused to have their characters betray Kirk.
These days I look at STV as the big screen equivalent of a third season episode. It's got big ideas but nothing like the budget it needs to realize them. And it plays as unintentionally campy a lot of the time.
I think if you were going to salvage STV, it had to be done at the script stage. Harve Bennett pointed out that "The Enterprise crew meets God" is an inherently flawed premise, because you know going in that it's not going to be the real God. Most of the humor is terribly forced and slapsticky. And I think 1989 was pretty late in the day for Spock to suddenly have a long-lost brother, especially since he'd mind melded with McCoy and put his Katra inside him three movies before.
But I think you could make a good movie out of the premise of the Enterprise being taken over by a mind-controlling religious fanatic who's taken hostages. Make it as Die Hard mashed up with Star Trek and give it a higher budget and I think it could work. Shatner was a good action director and the scene where Sybok shows Spock and McCoy their individual pains is good. But Sybok is a weak antagonist overall and I don't think the film's grand "statement" ("God is right here, in the human heart") amounts to much.
I'm a firm believer that it could be saved. A few of the awful scenes like Scotty bumping his head and getting knocked out could easily be removed and not affect the story at all. Replacing all of the starship VFX would be great.
Those would be steps in the right direction, but since I have concerns about the underlying story itself, I'm not sure they would "save" it.
I do like that the final film has McCoy become sympathetic to Sybok, even largely won over by him, but not to the point of turning against or betraying Kirk while Spock is just not interested/tempted at all in very believable way.
It would've been hugely controversial but ST5 should've been a vehicle to introduce Gnosticism to the mainstream, which posits that God and the devil are the same being, Yaldabaoth the demiurge, who feeds off the suffering of people and plays both sides to feed from the suffering of people generated by the play-acted conflict between good and evil. When Kirk asks "What does God need with a starship?", Spock would point out that religious books like the Bible often have God asking for things he presumably wouldn't need and that the loss of a starship would result in feelings of loss and suffering from the people associated with it that God/devil/Yaldabaoth would then feed off of. After fleeing from Yaldabaoth, the Federation would move towards the much more atheist society that we see in TNG.
That being said, undoubtedly this would be HUGELY controversial and the studio wouldn't go through with it probably (Gnosticism itself was wiped out by Christian religions in medieval times and reigniting that controversy through a Star Trek movie is probably something studios want to avoid considering the huge swaths of Christians ready to protest)
That being said, undoubtedly this would be HUGELY controversial and the studio wouldn't go through with it probably (Gnosticism itself was wiped out by Christian religions in medieval times and reigniting that controversy through a Star Trek movie is probably something studios want to avoid considering the huge swaths of Christians ready to protest)
Meh.
The Catholic Church condemned the Exorcist and the Last Temptation of Christ and that just
And Gnosticism just holds that all physical matter is bad, and all spirit is good. So, God cannot interact with the physical world so created iterations of itself that were less good as it got more separated and moved in to the physical.
It would be an interesting idea in Trek, especially given how friendly they made the devil in TAS.
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All the issues I have with Star Trek V are ones that are on a fundamental level. The story, premise and conclusion are just not good. Fixing the bad effects and/or adding in Rockmen isn't going to change the primary issues that I have with the film, which are sadly essential to the story. Like the crew willfully committing mutiny on Kirk for reasons that we're not privy to or how the Enterprise barely works or that Starfleet thinks Kirk is so awesome that he can do anything even in a broken ship.
Vulcan mindmelds turned jurati into a murderer in Picard and turned people back into mutineering maquis on voyager. In retrospect what sybok did seems mild.
And that's the point. What Sybok is doing is NOT mind-control or influencing the crew into doing what he wants. He's simply removing a 'secret pain' that simply makes the crew feel better. If he had control or influence over the crew, there would have been a moment where his influence had clearly lost it's affect and everyone would have come back to their senses, but we don't get a moment like that. When Sybok gives the ship back and later dies on the planet's surface, everyone who had their pain taken away still acts the same.
And as the film depicts, removing a person's pain does not guarantee loyalty as Spock and McCoy demonstrated. So in the end we're left with the notion that the only crew on the Enterprise who would never betray Kirk are Spock and McCoy (Minus Scotty because Sybok didn't get to him). Everyone else comes off like they were just waiting for an excuse to mutiny against Kirk since no one shows any regret for betraying their Captain. And that's an important detail to remember because Kirk does get an apology from someone who caused him a lot of trouble and it was the freaking Klingon who hunted the Enterprise down because he was bored.
I quite like TFF, especially since it feels most like TOS along with TMP.
That said, the story is the biggest problem. TMP was unfortunately seen as a narrative failure by Meyer and Bennett, who oversaw the creative vision of II-IV. Their unified vision was incredibly tough to beat as it every possible emotional beat conceivable and, in many ways, wrapped up the story of Kirk and his crew in a way that would have made for a satisfactory end to the film series.
With all of that in mind, where does Star Trek V go? I think Shatner had the right idea to get metaphysical and bring back a sense of adventure, but Spock's long-lost brother and a search for God were probably not the way to go.
I don't know what kind of story would have worked. We certainly didn't need another "Earth is in peril" or "Big bad wants revenge," but we also didn't need to follow up the promise of "let's see what she's got" with a ship that barely works. It would have been great to see that the Enterprise is off on another five year mission and they make a new discovery or revisit concepts/characters from TOS. A return to the Mirror Universe would have been fun. I think the premise could have been established for the general audience with minimal exposition and a lot of money could have been saved on casting big names.
All in all, TFF tried something different from the films that preceded it but needed a better premise.
That said, the story is the biggest problem. TMP was unfortunately seen as a narrative failure by Meyer and Bennett, who oversaw the creative vision of II-IV. Their unified vision was incredibly tough to beat as it every possible emotional beat conceivable and, in many ways, wrapped up the story of Kirk and his crew in a way that would have made for a satisfactory end to the film series.
With all of that in mind, where does Star Trek V go? I think Shatner had the right idea to get metaphysical and bring back a sense of adventure, but Spock's long-lost brother and a search for God were probably not the way to go.
I don't know what kind of story would have worked. We certainly didn't need another "Earth is in peril" or "Big bad wants revenge," but we also didn't need to follow up the promise of "let's see what she's got" with a ship that barely works. It would have been great to see that the Enterprise is off on another five year mission and they make a new discovery or revisit concepts/characters from TOS. A return to the Mirror Universe would have been fun. I think the premise could have been established for the general audience with minimal exposition and a lot of money could have been saved on casting big names.
All in all, TFF tried something different from the films that preceded it but needed a better premise.
Sybok was patterned after the 80s televangelists who were the forerunners of the alt-right religious groups involved in politics today. If Shatner had been allowed to go all the way with Sybok by having him vaporize gay people, attack birth control etc. due to his religious fanaticism, then I guarantee you it would have been controversial.
The fact that Sybok is shown in SNW as having a non-binary partner and glossing over that his character as originally conceived as a religious fundamentalist would likely have killed and denounced said character (forget about even being in a relationship with them) shows that even now Trek is still pulling punches on what the Sybok character is supposed to represent.
See also: How William Stryker was turned into a generic military villain for the X-Men films instead of the religious fundamentalist mutant-hating preacher he was in the X-Men comics.
Of course it would be controversial.
And it would have generated more interest was my point. You can introduce stuff all you want and people will be pissed because they can.
Or, you can just watch films and analyze them. I'm a Christian, yet find Constantine, Hellraiser, and such just fine and not controversial. Probably because pop culture doesn't dictate my beliefs.
It really saves me a lot of money on blood pressure meds.
"I lost a brother once. I was lucky - I got him back"
One way you could go is to just lean into the "found family" vs blood theme and treat the premise of "finding God" as more of just the backdrop for the real story to take place. Done well, this or just about any premise would do fine. This is a chance to revisit some of Spock's background and history pre-Starfleet, through the lens of his post resurrection and 20-ish years of growth and development since TOS. In episodes like Amok Time and Journey to Babel, he was still forming his friendship with Kirk -- and just beginning to discover the potential for, if not friendship, then at least not outright antagonist relationship with McCoy. By TFF - he had grown to know all the characters much more, gained a much deeper understanding of McCoy, and come to accept, if not yet embrace, his human half. Introducing a "long lost brother" in Sybok, while the trope does admittedly strain credibility coming this late in the history, would allow for an opportunity for Spock to confront how much he has grown and changed, and how it affects how he and his blood family see each other, in ways that are hard to show between Spocks and Sarek because of their more formal and detached relationship. To see Spock come to see that not only are Kirk, McCoy and the other characters his friend - they have come to be more a family to him than his own blood. I want to see what it means to Spock's worldview now that he had entrusted his very existence to one of the must emotional and "illogical" people he had ever known. Now that he has finally reconciled with his father, how does it affect him to now have to side against his blood family?
At the end of TMP and TWOK, we saw a warmer Spock that was beginning to accept his human half and emotional connections to his friends. By TWOK he his actually explicitly acknowledging his friendship with Kirk. He was absent most of TSFS, and still recovering and rediscovering himself in TVH. I want to see him continue his growth to the next steps. To see more of his identity outside of his bubble in Starfleet. We got a few subtle hints of it in TFF, but there is so much more that could be explored.
After all the incredible events of the last 3 films, why not take some time to explore how it has affected and changed, some of the other characters too? That is a movie I would like to see.
One way you could go is to just lean into the "found family" vs blood theme and treat the premise of "finding God" as more of just the backdrop for the real story to take place. Done well, this or just about any premise would do fine. This is a chance to revisit some of Spock's background and history pre-Starfleet, through the lens of his post resurrection and 20-ish years of growth and development since TOS. In episodes like Amok Time and Journey to Babel, he was still forming his friendship with Kirk -- and just beginning to discover the potential for, if not friendship, then at least not outright antagonist relationship with McCoy. By TFF - he had grown to know all the characters much more, gained a much deeper understanding of McCoy, and come to accept, if not yet embrace, his human half. Introducing a "long lost brother" in Sybok, while the trope does admittedly strain credibility coming this late in the history, would allow for an opportunity for Spock to confront how much he has grown and changed, and how it affects how he and his blood family see each other, in ways that are hard to show between Spocks and Sarek because of their more formal and detached relationship. To see Spock come to see that not only are Kirk, McCoy and the other characters his friend - they have come to be more a family to him than his own blood. I want to see what it means to Spock's worldview now that he had entrusted his very existence to one of the must emotional and "illogical" people he had ever known. Now that he has finally reconciled with his father, how does it affect him to now have to side against his blood family?
At the end of TMP and TWOK, we saw a warmer Spock that was beginning to accept his human half and emotional connections to his friends. By TWOK he his actually explicitly acknowledging his friendship with Kirk. He was absent most of TSFS, and still recovering and rediscovering himself in TVH. I want to see him continue his growth to the next steps. To see more of his identity outside of his bubble in Starfleet. We got a few subtle hints of it in TFF, but there is so much more that could be explored.
After all the incredible events of the last 3 films, why not take some time to explore how it has affected and changed, some of the other characters too? That is a movie I would like to see.
The film is too fundamentally flawed to be able to fix it with better VFX, because the subpar effects weren’t the problem, despite what Shatner believes. The thing is, the film really isn’t about a metaphor for TV evangelists, because Sybok doesn’t act like Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker or Jerry Falwell. He is not a fake preacher trying to swindle people out of their money. He truly believes he has contacted God and only wants to find Him while helping to heal others of their pain.
No. The movie is actually just a self-serving vehicle for Shatner. The whole point of the story is to show that Kirk is strong and everybody else is weak. That’s why everyone turns on him, that’s why everyone is brainwashed to follow Sybok…except Kirk. Kirk is the ultimate strongman, resistant to Sybok’s charms and is able to defeat him (and, ultimately God, never mind that He’s just an alien), and never falls victim to the ‘false prophet’ like his subordinates do. This film might as well have been an ‘80’s James Bond schlock movie plot: despite a malfunctioning ship and brainwashed crew, Kirk still miraculously single-handedly saves the day.
It sounds like Ahsoka Tano and Rex. Ahsoka is the ultimate Jedi, resistant to the dark side and strong where every other Jedi is weak. Every clone is brainwashed to follow Order 66... except Rex who can shout a warning when no other clone does. Despite a sabotaged ship and a brainwashed crew, Ahsoka still miraculously single-handedly saves the day, impressing even Vader.
Shatner and Filoni should write a script together.
I’ve never seen Ahsoka so I’ll have to take your word for it.
As far as TFF is concerned, Shatner’s motive for the film is painfully evident right from the start, with Kirk and his rock-climbing stunt (and also in the thankfully cut skydiving scene in Generations): Shatner, through Kirk, is showing off his seeming invincibility, the only conceit being that he’s not afraid of dying because he has his friends to save him if he gets in trouble. Now if Shatner had carried through with this idea when Sybok offers to heal his pain, at least it would have made more sense for Kirk to finally give in. Because he admitted his secret pain earlier in the film: That Kirk is only afraid of dying if he’s alone. Which coincides with Shatner’s secret pain: he’s afraid of losing his fame unless the fictional character he plays can single-handedly save the day against all odds. That’s why Shatner has constantly refused to do cameo roles: because Kirk wouldn’t be the hero. And since nobody is offering him a hero role, he will never come back to Star Trek.
But imagine if Shatner had put aside his narcissism and included a scene where Kirk is actually alone and helpless, and owns that he is truly nothing without his fans…er, friends. That vulnerability would have been fantastic character development. But he opted instead to be the tough guy surrounded by weaklings.
Shatner was involved in that Roddenberry short a few months back, but admittedly he was the hero so that probably wouldn't contradict your point. However, the Starfleet Academy PC game features Shatner as Kirk a lot (in the live action cutscenes) and he's not in the starring role nor an invincible hero in it.
