Could Nemesis have worked if it was a DS9 or VOY standalone film?

[FederationHistorian]

We all know that NEM wasn't received warmly. But I wonder if reception to it have changed if it had been a DS9 film of VOY film instead of being a TNG film? Let's ignore that DS9 and VOY were not as popular as TNG, and that the plot was used for either.

Recycle various aspects and wouldn't it work?

DS9: Bashir and Ezri Dax marry. Buggy scene still happens. Romulans clone Sisko, either to fake his return of to sew doubt that he has in fact returned. Film proceeds as normal, with the Defiant replacing the Ent-E in the battle against the Scimitar, Romulans coming to assist, a member of the crew dying, and a member of the crew leaving for the USS Titan.

VOY: Chakotay and Seven marry. Buggy scene still happens. Romulans clone Janeway, to have an agent n their behalf in the highest echelons of Starfleet now that she’s a Vice Admiral. Film proceeds as normal, with Voyager replacing the Ent-E in the battle against the Scimitar, Romulans coming to assist, a member of the crew dying, and a member of the crew leaving for the USS Titan.

I’ll stick with these two and ignore ENT. Aspects of NEM could work with an ENT version of the film (Trip and T’Pol marry, the buggy scene, Romulans clone Archer and/or T’Pol, the Bassen Rift hampering communications with Romulan vessels), but it gets wonky if the Romulans come to the aid of the NX-01 in the battle with the Scimitar considering the era. And its not clear if anyone would die, or if the crew would stay together after.

Would these alternate versions of NEM work, or would they still be plagued by problems that hurt the orignal version?

 

[dupersuper]

Could it be a well written DS9 or Voyager movie?

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, the biggest part of Nemesis is that the villain's plot makes little sense. He acts like he has all the time in the world and then he is dying and suddenly there is a ticking clock. So, if one were to rewrite this film then it would need to start with the villain.

 

[suarezguy]

Romulans cloning the captain would still be really weird with either of those two also, weirder and (positively) a bit more intriguing with Sisko in that/if the real person's not even around, probably better that it at least wasn't a years-ago plot, though a Deep Space Nine movie without its lead would seem wrong (but OTOH his return shouldn't have been rushed). Otherwise not much difference, the problem with Nemesis was mostly the antagonists rather than the crew.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

DS9, with the Dominion cloning O'Brien. Their flimsy reasons wouldn't much matter, because an evil megalomaniac O'Brien would be too damn entertaining.

Better yet, don't make it a clone; make it a shapeshifter that got stuck in O'Brien's form.

For the "Voyager" version, make the villain ne of the EMH Mark-1s that escaped the mine. Robert Picardo played a fantastic evil-Doc several times on Voyager.

 

[Vger23]

Fans didn't care or show up for the beloved TNG cast. Casual movie goers cared even less

There would have been even less care or interest in a DS9 or VOY movie.

That's not a criticism of those shows (I personally like DS9 more than TNG). It's just a fact based on the recognition and popularity of those shows at the time.

 

[shapeshifter]

4 fantastic, (imo) appearances building up Tomalak as the main Romulan badass then come time for his big finish on the big screen and what do we get?

 

[fireproof78]

Have Dukat as a clone.

 

[cardinal biggles]

It was a shit story and a shit script. Transposing the DS9 or Voyager characters onto it would not have made it better, just different.

 

[ananta]

Um, yeah, they needed to go back to the drawing board for this one. It didn’t help that at that time Trek just felt really tired. Nobody was here for it, including me frankly.

 

[JoseNoodles]

Honestly, the biggest part of Nemesis is that the villain's plot makes little sense. He acts like he has all the time in the world and then he is dying and suddenly there is a ticking clock. So, if one were to rewrite this film then it would need to start with the villain.

Plus his beef with Earth. Weren't the Romulans the ones abusing him? Wouldn't it had made more sense to attack Romulus?

 

[fireproof78]

Plus his beef with Earth. Weren't the Romulans the ones abusing him? Wouldn't it had made more sense to attack Romulus?

I mean...he did. He took out the leadership in a military coup because...because everyone knows that dilithium slaves make the best generals and the military followed him.

Yeah, got nothing.

ETA: took out, not at.

 

[JoseNoodles]

I mean...he did. He took at the leadership in a military coup because...because everyone knows that dilithium slaves make the best generals and the military followed him.

Yeah, got nothing.

Yup, the might Romulan Star Empire bowed down to an incel clone of Picard. Good grief.

 

[Qonundrum]

We all know that NEM wasn't received warmly. But I wonder if reception to it have changed if it had been a DS9 film of VOY film instead of being a TNG film? Let's ignore that DS9 and VOY were not as popular as TNG, and that the plot was used for either.

Not with the sordid mishmash of ideas that don't mesh. Shinzon being a failed biological experiment - a clone of Picard - is a stretch already. Chucking him on the prison planet of Remus to languish is another. Managing to build the Mary Stu/Marty Sue ship-to-end-all-ships with nobody noticing and reporting to high command is yet another... unless they were all high all the time, but that seems atypical.

Recycle various aspects and wouldn't it work?

The mutha of all ships could be a Dominion weapon, since the Borg and Son'a already had oversized destructive space vehicles that could damage planets, why not another so soon?

DS9: Bashir and Ezri Dax marry.

That'll bring in millions of moviegoers for sure...

Buggy scene still happens.

Wasn't that Stewart's idea? It still is an overly long waste of time that makes "The Motion Picture" seem rabidly paced by comparison.

Romulans clone Sisko, either to fake his return of to sew doubt that he has in fact returned. Film proceeds as normal, with the Defiant replacing the Ent-E in the battle against the Scimitar, Romulans coming to assist, a member of the crew dying, and a member of the crew leaving for the USS Titan.

Hmmm.... how they manage to get Sisko's DNA aside (why not the Founders instead?), you just made that idea viable. Assuming people would be intrigued by a DS9/TNG crossover movie.

VOY: Chakotay and Seven marry. Buggy scene still happens. Romulans clone Janeway, to have an agent n their behalf in the highest echelons of Starfleet now that she’s a Vice Admiral. Film proceeds as normal, with Voyager replacing the Ent-E in the battle against the Scimitar, Romulans coming to assist, a member of the crew dying, and a member of the crew leaving for the USS Titan.

Not as strong on any count.

I’ll stick with these two and ignore ENT. Aspects of NEM could work with an ENT version of the film (Trip and T’Pol marry, the buggy scene, Romulans clone Archer and/or T’Pol, the Bassen Rift hampering communications with Romulan vessels), but it gets wonky if the Romulans come to the aid of the NX-01 in the battle with the Scimitar considering the era. And its not clear if anyone would die, or if the crew would stay together after.

Would these alternate versions of NEM work, or would they still be plagued by problems that hurt the orignal version?

The original version had, what, a 4 year gap. Yet the thing feels rushed and inconsequential. I don't think much would have changed that. There were never ideas back then for DS9 or VOY movies (not deemed "popular enough"? Never mind ENT), and as far back as "First Contact" (1996) the most they would do beyond feeling rushed and inconsequential were silly cameos and campy quips instead of something more dramatically engaging.

The Schimitar had some potential but, you guessed it, the way it's brought in feels no less inconsequential or rushed. Now maybe the official Romulan govt or Dominion could twirl a mustache, go "teeeheheehee" and cobble up something (especially the still-mysterious-and-big Dominion), but not some tinpot side group that would have by far the least-available resources.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Honestly, the biggest part of Nemesis is that the villain's plot makes little sense. He acts like he has all the time in the world and then he is dying and suddenly there is a ticking clock. So, if one were to rewrite this film then it would need to start with the villain.

There's also the issue of why Shinzon decides to go after Earth, a planet he hasn't been to and really mean little to him, whilst Romulus is the symbol of oppression and brutality to him and the Remans. Yes, Shizon might go after Earth to strike a blow to their donor and draw them out, but if the plan was successful and Earth was decimated then there is no reason why the donor would submit afterwards, given their family will have just perished.

They Human/Earth centric nature of enemy plots really is baffling. The UFP and Starfleet will have contingency upon contingency for the loss of Earth, so both organisations would continue, though admittedly somewhat disrupted until they got a handle on just what the new order was.

 

[Kirk Von Shtupp]

We all know that NEM wasn't received warmly. But I wonder if reception to it have changed if it had been a DS9 film of VOY film instead of being a TNG film? Let's ignore that DS9 and VOY were not as popular as TNG, and that the plot was used for either.

The short answer, in my opinion, is no. Nemesis was way too contrived. There was nothing organic or authentic about it's storytelling or it's story. It was a hackneyed stab at retelling TWoK therefore it wouldn't have within the framework of any of the Star Trek shows (and I don't believe the relative popularity of any of the Trek shows would have made one iotas difference).

 

[Damian]

Plus his beef with Earth. Weren't the Romulans the ones abusing him? Wouldn't it had made more sense to attack Romulus?

There's also the issue of why Shinzon decides to go after Earth, a planet he hasn't been to and really mean little to him, whilst Romulus is the symbol of oppression and brutality to him and the Remans.

That has more to do with Captain Picard. One of the themes of the film was that Schinzon felt like the echo, and he wanted to beat the 'voice.' The ultimate defeat of Picard would be wiping out his homeworld, Earth.

So Schinzon's desire to eradicate Earth had everything to do with Captain Picard. Not to mention strategically it would cripple the Federation, so there's that. But to Schinzon that was just a side benefit. He wanted to eliminate all traces of Picard because in his mind that would be his ultimate victory over the 'voice.'

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Given the number of times Earth has been targeted over the years, the UFP and Starfleet must have a very comprehensive system in place to should the planet be lost then leadership of the government and quasi-military would be passed on to another planet within a matter of hours if not minutes. There's no way they'd be shortsighted enough to have all their eggs in one basket, why else would Earth seem to be so poorly defended almost every time someone got close to it?

 

[Dukhat]

The OP didn't ask why Nemesis failed. He asked if a movie about DS9 or VOY would have worked better.

And the answer to that would be, no. It would have been worse.