Could Kirk have been punished for not raising shields in TWOK?

[RyanKCR]

Carol was referring to Starfleet when she asked: "why are you taking Genesis from us?"

Why would she hunt Admiral Kirk down, on assignment aboard the Enterprise, instead of someone from Starfleet actually involved in the project?

Kirk had to be involved at some level or it makes no sense for Carol Marcus to go out of her way to him for information. Then you add the fact that he seemed pretty knowledgeable about the project and had security clearance to materials related to it.

Because Khan used Kirk's name to threated Genesis to lure Kirk into the situation. Kirk only had basic info on Genesis. Also why would he be involved when he was just in charge of or part of Starfleet Academy?

The fact that he had security clearance could be due to the fact that he was an admiral.

 

[Galileo7]

But jamming could be from a natural source as well. Perhaps an ion storm (whatever they are) or the star put out a big flare. There's no indication that there was a ship under enemy control until the Enterprise meets up with Reliant and things go downhill quickly.

^ That's what I meant. An electromagnetic storm as I said in my post or some other natural phenomena. There was no way that Kirk could have known there was a crisis unfolding until after Reliant fired on Enterprise.

I think we're missing a key point here: Kirk was evidently intimately involved with the development of Genesis. She even asks, "Why are you taking Genesis away from us?". Then you have the fact that the Reliant is no longer on the assignment given to it, "It's one of ours.". This to me indicates that no other starships are supposedly in the area.

Kirk should've known something was up, even if there wasn't a regulation about raising shields. I mean he does order 'Yellow Alert', which if you watch the movie, means that some type of defensive bubble was activated around the bridge module.

The movie needed to show Kirk being "rusty", this was how they accomplished it.

I think you are correct about showing Kirk "rusty". However, I think if it was not a Federation starship Reliant, thus Khan's statement:"We are one, big happy fleet!", Kirk would have raised shields immediately upon encountering.

 

[BillJ]

Because Khan used Kirk's name to threated Genesis to lure Kirk into the situation. Kirk only had basic info on Genesis. Also why would he be involved when he was just in charge of or part of Starfleet Academy?

Khan may have used his name... but I can't believe Carol Marcus is that dumb. Why would she think the guy in charge of Starfleet Academy would have any jurisdiction over the Genesis project?

So it means she would need to go to either her contact within Starfleet or the Commodore/Admiral that the Reliant reports to. Either one of those could have been Kirk.

Data Security is so stringent now that I have a hard time believing Kirk would be granted access to a project he had no part in.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Kirk wasn't the commandant of the Academy...he was an instructor and as for Khan, remember Pavel is the one who made the request of Carol to turn over all the Genesis materials. She didn't even know about Khan either at that point. Carol thought that Starfleet was playing bureaucrat with her project when it had previously promised that it wouldn't.

 

[Timo]

Kirk had to be involved at some level or it makes no sense for Carol Marcus to go out of her way to him for information. Then you add the fact that he seemed pretty knowledgeable about the project and had security clearance to materials related to it.

It sounds natural enough to think that Kirk was involved with Carol Marcus, not with Genesis.

Of course Marcus would call the one Starfleet bigwig he knew, rather than those who were his seeming enemies. And of course Kirk would have a passing knowledge of what his old flame was doing, and the incentive and authority to provide help on a matter that didn't officially belong to him in the slightest.

From the Stardate on the Genesis proposal video it looked like it was a couple of years ago when Admiral Kirk was maybe still Chief of Fleet Operations?

Kirk wasn't the commandant of the Academy...he was an instructor

We know basically squat about Kirk's career outside the specific days depicted in the movies. He could have been the Academy commandant for all we know; Rear Admiral sounds just about right for such a position. And he could have been in the inner circle of Genesis things among other things at the time Marcus made her proposal, even if he wasn't Chief of SF Ops.

As for the proposal video, we get the two versions, one by Marcus and one by Kirk. The latter, from ST4, was probably something Kirk put together after the events of ST2, to provide a more coherent narration for the UFP Council viewing the thing; he'd have borrowed material from the original Marcus tape for that, but this doesn't mean he was involved with Genesis in any way before ST2.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Admiral_Young]

I highly doubt from the way he was presented and conducted himself that Admiral Kirk was not the commandant, perhaps on the Academy's academic board or something given his rank but I would guess he was not the commandant. I don't think his rank was Rear Admiral was it? It's been a while since I've taken a look at his rank pips from that time period. I'm starting to think this thread has run it's course.

 

[Maurice]

It seems to mean highlighting on a computer screen a specific deck below the bridge with colors indicative of... what? Probably the status of intruder control measures on that deck, because that's what the text on that screen refers to.

It's probably one out of about three dozen things people do when Yellow Alert is ordered; had the camera dwelled on that computer screen longer, each of the decks of the ship might have been highlighted in turn.

Nah, we know that the screen in question was the unused Intruder Alert graphic from TMP when then Ilia probe arrives (you can see it 8 seconds in this TMP trailer). If they'd held on that image another instant it would have finished filling in that one deck and put a flashing dot on a cabin and listed the deck coordinates.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Maybe an alternative question to ask is...would Spock have raised shields if he was in command of the Enterprise?

 

[BillJ]

Maybe an alternative question to ask is...would Spock have raised shields if he was in command of the Enterprise?

I think a better question would be: How effective are shields when two ships are as close as Reliant and Enterprise were?

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ You beat me LOL Interesting...I don't think they would have been effective for very long at that close range with full phasers. I find it interesting too that Khan ordered Reliant to fire phasers instead of photon torpedoes. I realize that he wanted a precision tactical strike against Enterprise, but wouldn't photon torpedoes cripple them?

 

[Captain Worf]

Carol was referring to Starfleet when she asked: "why are you taking Genesis from us?"

Why would she hunt Admiral Kirk down, on assignment aboard the Enterprise, instead of someone from Starfleet actually involved in the project?

Kirk had to be involved at some level or it makes no sense for Carol Marcus to go out of her way to him for information. Then you add the fact that he seemed pretty knowledgeable about the project and had security clearance to materials related to it.

Checkov said that Kirk gave the order to give Genesis to the Reliant when david asked where the order came from.

 

[BillJ]

Carol was referring to Starfleet when she asked: "why are you taking Genesis from us?"

Why would she hunt Admiral Kirk down, on assignment aboard the Enterprise, instead of someone from Starfleet actually involved in the project?

Kirk had to be involved at some level or it makes no sense for Carol Marcus to go out of her way to him for information. Then you add the fact that he seemed pretty knowledgeable about the project and had security clearance to materials related to it.

Checkov said that Kirk gave the order to give Genesis to the Reliant when david asked where the order came from.

Yeah. But she doesn't seem the least bit surprised when she learns this. It didn't seem like a total broadside, like she was going to have to deal with someone she hadn't been dealing with all along. I admit it's just a feeling on my part that Kirk was involved... but based what we see in the film it does seem logical from my perspective.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I'm pretty sure that based on the tape footage that Admiral Kirk at the time that Genesis was proposed and in it's early stages was involved to some degree. He probably made that recording when he was Fleet of Chief Operations.

 

[kkozoriz1]

When Carol asks "Why are you taking Genesis away from us" Kirk replies "Nobody's taking Genesis". That may mean that he's following the project if not actively involved. He does say that the tape was made a while ago and he assumes that they've moved to the next stage. Interested observer but not active participant.

 

[Timo]

I don't think his rank was Rear Admiral was it?

That's what it was intended to be by the designer of those pins, but admittedly it was never verified on screen. We did see more pompous pins in the later movies, supposedly denoting Vice Admiral, full Admiral and then the top rank that may have been Fleet Admiral or Grand Admiral or whatever.

Kirk's TMP braid also looked like it ought to be Rear Admiral, or one step above the TOS Commodore braid. I guess Kirk either stalled his career by annoying his superiors, or then took a long leave of absence as sort of suggested in ST:GEN.

Or then his fumbling with the shields in ST2 was retroactively held against him by a time-traveling superior.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Carol was referring to Starfleet when she asked: "why are you taking Genesis from us?"

Why would she hunt Admiral Kirk down, on assignment aboard the Enterprise, instead of someone from Starfleet actually involved in the project?

Because Chekov, under orders from Khan, told her that Adm Kirk had given the order for Reliant to come to Regulus and collect the Genesis material. Khan knew she'd call Kirk to confirm the order and that Kirk would be drawn into his trap.

 

[Timo]

It's quite a coincidence that Khan stumbled onto a starship that had a "once-removed" connection to Kirk; in a big organization like Starfleet, I'd expect twice- or thrice-removed instead.

Perhaps we shouldn't make this a bigger coincidence than it already is? That is, preferably there would be no other connection between Marcus and Kirk besides the fact that they had been an item in the past. That would be enough justification for Marcus to call Kirk rather than some nameless Admiral from her project.

In turn, Khan would have ordered Chekov to bring Kirk into this somehow, no matter how artificial or awkward the connection, probably without knowing that Carol and Jim had been a couple. (Indeed, had Khan known about this, he would have more vehemently pursued a Carol-as-hostage scheme, and e.g. would not have let her escape to the Regula cave.) Khan could also have made Chekov call Starfleet directly to bring Kirk into the trap, but Chekov had already told him about Genesis; Khan would be just the type to go for the world-domination device without bothering to interrogate Chekov further.

So, in the preferable interpretation, it was just an unfortunate coincidence that the random scientist who was ordered by Khan, via Chekov, to contact Kirk happened to be his former lover...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Basil]

People seeing his actions as dopey in that scene are seeing them exactly as intended and as Kirk himself later concedes. He seems to be following a sense of gentlemanly protocol to another captain by choosing to not raise shields -- an idea that could be used to his defense even if it does not seem logical -- and since neither Spock nor Sulu seem troubled by it (remember, Sulu reminds Saavik of a similar issue when she chooses to attempt rescue of the Kobyashi Maru in the ironically parallel scene at the beginning), Kirk's actions seem within the bounds of a captain's discretion.

We're led to believe that because of his age and depression, Kirk is not at his best game. In this sense, his actions aren't simply supporting the plot but demonstrating the flaws in a character we think we know. But this is Kirk more than a decade later and to whom aging has not been easy. That's what makes him intriguing as a character and what makes Star Trek II the only legitimate character-driven Trek movie. The plot grows out of his condition, not the other way around. This may make him an imperfect hero but there wouldn't be much of a story arc if he was perfect.

A stretch might be to assume that he was taking no provocative an action so as not to spook whoever might have hijacked the Reliant, if it could be rationalized that he was thinking that far ahead. But there's far more context in everyone's behavior to believe the more likely explanation is Kirk simply chooses what is within his bounds as captain but what later is shown to be a lousy choice.

Should he have been disciplined for showing poor judgment in that moment? Perhaps. But given the ultimate outcome, even in the "real world" that would have been unlikely, especially if Genesis was as politically problematic a "black project" as it is suggested in the sequels. Kirk's having to live with his choice(s), which was another point the story makes, might be deemed enough. Others would also avoid publicity.

 

[Timo]

Kirk is certainly doing less than would be possible for guaranteeing the safety of his vessel. But he always does that; he never was more cautious in TOS or TAS. Which sort of undermines the as such commendable dramatic intent of that scene. It also makes it difficult to argue that Starfleet would take a dim view, because Starfleet apparently never did back when similar "carelessness" allowed various foes to hurt or even capture the Enterprise.

The interesting question is, what would Kirk have to do in order to be so noticeably worse than in TOS that Starfleet would take issue?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Basil]

Kirk is certainly doing less than would be possible for guaranteeing the safety of his vessel. But he always does that; he never was more cautious in TOS or TAS. Which sort of undermines the as such commendable dramatic intent of that scene. It also makes it difficult to argue that Starfleet would take a dim view, because Starfleet apparently never did back when similar "carelessness" allowed various foes to hurt or even capture the Enterprise.

The interesting question is, what would Kirk have to do in order to be so noticeably worse than in TOS that Starfleet would take issue?

Timo Saloniemi

No, Starfleet was willing to court martial him for ejecting Ben Finney when it did not appear the ship was yet in danger, so it is pretty easy to show there is a Starfleet precedent for even less offense required to prosecute a captain with regard to actions affecting the safety of ship and crew. In that circumstance, only one man is seemingly killed as the result of the captain's action. What we don't have is a situation exactly like the one he encounters in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, nor an understanding of what the actual regulation that Saavik begins quoting is or how it might be different than those 15 years before.

The argument that Kirk always did "less than would be possible for guaranteeing the safety of his vessel" is specious because there is a big difference between a calculated risk vis a vis Kirk's duty and its potential outcome and what we have with the scene in this movie, where Kirk had no idea he was about to get ambushed. Beyond that, if Kirk was to do everything possible, the Enterprise would never leave drydock.