Could Kirk have been punished for not raising shields in TWOK?

[Timo]

Realistically, a good and experienced captain like James Kirk WOULD have raised shields in that scenario in the movie.

We can't apply our own standards of "realism" here when we clearly see Starfleet has different standards. Kirk didn't raise shields when meeting fellow yet mysteriously silent starships in "Omega Glory" or "Tholian Web", nor did Picard when meeting with the fake Yamato or the Lantree. Hell, there isn't even indication that Picard would have raised shields against Ben Maxwell's rogue Phoenix initially!

There simply is no precedent for raising shields against a fellow Starfleet vessel.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Admiral_Young]

"Better safe than sorry" against a friendly ship? I suppose that Kirk could have raised shields when dropping out of warp and entering the Mutara sector. Then again why would he? He was approaching a Federation science station being protected by a Starfleet vessel. There was no way that he could have anticipated that a madman he probably hadn't thought about in twenty years was now commanding the ship. In fact he said after Reliant did not respond to hails "This is damned peculiar..." Now that could in fact be taken that he should have raised shields but until Khan fired on Enterprise there was absolutely no way to determine if Reliant was hostile. Unless he decided to initiate a sensor sweep or send a boarding party. I believe that Kirk acted as he should have acted in that situation. Not as we would expect him to act.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

Considering how much crazy $#!7 has happened in Star Trek, I'm surprised that Starfleet security is so lax and disbelieving. In a universe where things like the Borg, the Crystalline Entity, the Talosions, cloaking devices, Betazoids, etc. can exist, how come everytime they're presented with some new situation they say "Oh, that can never happen, it must be something-or-other"... until they're proven wrong. I would have believed Kirk when he said Spock had a chance of returning.

 

[sonak]

Err, for those saying that "he shouldn't raise shields against a Federation ship," how many times has there been hijackings, or possession of a crew by hostile alien entities in Star Trek, etc.?

Remember, Kirk had just gotten an alarming transmission from Dr. Carol Marcus that was JAMMED by someone. He knew they were going into a potentially dangerous situation from the scene where he takes command from Spock. THEN, on top of this he has a ship heading for him that hasn't made contact.


Raising shields is merely a moderate precautionary measure. It's not targeting weapons or anything offensive in nature like that.

There's just no getting around the sloppiness of this story point that has Kirk coming off as clueless and unprepared.

 

[Timo]

It's not a "story point". It's a standing feature of all Star Trek, a story constant if there ever was one.

Starfleet just plain doesn't raise precautionary shields, EVER. We have exactly two explanations for that, in-universe:

1) All the hero characters are born stupid, and that's what Starfleet is hiring
2) Starfleet has some good reason it ain't telling

In neither case is Kirk clueless or unprepared by Starfleet standards. Had he raised shields there, he would have acted outside the parameters of the Star Trek universe!

(As for your description of the ST2 situation, well, Carol Marcus made a call in which he complained about some bureaucratic details regarding the control of her project - hardly an emergency by Trek standards. She then got jammed, and lo and behold, Kirk then encounters a starship that appears to be jammed, too. A likelier victim than perp...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

Well, Kirk seemed a little alarmed for it to be just some message about bureaucratic mess-ups. I think it was meant to be assumed it was a serious situation, especially with the possibility of the Genesis project in peril.


At any rate, I'll go with your explanation of it being just standard Starfleet stupidity not to raise shields as a precaution, but if that's the case then they really need to change their procedures.

 

[Admiral_Young]

It could be chalked up to sloppy writing if you really want to be critical of the situation that he found himself in but as Timo pointed out we have never seen a Starfleet ship raise their shields against another ship on screen. Kirk was also alarmed because the message was from Carol. Remember in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Kirk did not order shields raised when Qo;'Nos One despite instincts probably telling him to do so and the Klingons were considered a hostile enemy at the time despite the burgeoning peace process. Kirk had no idea how critical the situation was with the Reliant and on the space. As I said maybe he should have ordered a sensor sweep of the ship out of precaution when the ship did not return hails. To him there was any conceivable number of possible outcomes.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Carol didn't say that they were under attack. She gave the impression that Someone in the Federation or Starfleet was removing the project from her control. Add in the comm problems and it's an unusual situation but not necessarily a dangerous one. Nobody yet knew that Khan had escaped or taken over Reliant. As Kirk said "It's probably nothing. garbled communications."

 

[Maurice]

^^^But Uhura says the signal was "jammed at the source", which implies something more than "problems".

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Didn't she say that when Enterprise arrived? It's been a few months since I've seen the movie

 

[BillJ]

^ Didn't she say that when Enterprise arrived? It's been a few months since I've seen the movie

No. She states that the communication was jammed at the source when Kirk loses contact with Carol Marcus.

It was essentially a 'needed piece of stupidity' to move the story forward.

 

[Maurice]

^ Didn't she say that when Enterprise arrived? It's been a few months since I've seen the movie

No, she says it when Carol's transmission gets cut off and Kirk asks what's happening. Kirk then says or Uhura to get him Starfleet Command.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Okay two of you said the same thing, thanks for the reminding. Jamming at the source could have meant some kind of electromagnetic disturbance coming from outside of the space station. I realize that I'm reaching here but I think the answer to the original posters question is no.

 

[kkozoriz1]

But jamming could be from a natural source as well. Perhaps an ion storm (whatever they are) or the star put out a big flare. There's no indication that there was a ship under enemy control until the Enterprise meets up with Reliant and things go downhill quickly.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ That's what I meant. An electromagnetic storm as I said in my post or some other natural phenomena. There was no way that Kirk could have known there was a crisis unfolding until after Reliant fired on Enterprise.

 

[BillJ]

But jamming could be from a natural source as well. Perhaps an ion storm (whatever they are) or the star put out a big flare. There's no indication that there was a ship under enemy control until the Enterprise meets up with Reliant and things go downhill quickly.

^ That's what I meant. An electromagnetic storm as I said in my post or some other natural phenomena. There was no way that Kirk could have known there was a crisis unfolding until after Reliant fired on Enterprise.

I think we're missing a key point here: Kirk was evidently intimately involved with the development of Genesis. She even asks, "Why are you taking Genesis away from us?". Then you have the fact that the Reliant is no longer on the assignment given to it, "It's one of ours.". This to me indicates that no other starships are supposedly in the area.

Kirk should've known something was up, even if there wasn't a regulation about raising shields. I mean he does order 'Yellow Alert', which if you watch the movie, means that some type of defensive bubble was activated around the bridge module.

The movie needed to show Kirk being "rusty", this was how they accomplished it.

 

[Timo]

To be sure, starship skippers in TOS or TNG don't know what other starship skippers are up to. Which is only logical, considering how much leeway Kirk or Picard had in executing their own missions and meandering from them to various side paths. Just encountering a starship where one doesn't expect to find one isn't grounds for alarm, let alone raising of shields, as e.g. "Doomsday Machine" demonstrates.

I mean he does order 'Yellow Alert', which if you watch the movie, means that some type of defensive bubble was activated around the bridge module.

It seems to mean highlighting on a computer screen a specific deck below the bridge with colors indicative of... what? Probably the status of intruder control measures on that deck, because that's what the text on that screen refers to.

It's probably one out of about three dozen things people do when Yellow Alert is ordered; had the camera dwelled on that computer screen longer, each of the decks of the ship might have been highlighted in turn.

The movie needed to show Kirk being "rusty", this was how they accomplished it.

Which is a bit funny, because Kirk was that "rusty" all through TOS and TAS, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RyanKCR]

But jamming could be from a natural source as well. Perhaps an ion storm (whatever they are) or the star put out a big flare. There's no indication that there was a ship under enemy control until the Enterprise meets up with Reliant and things go downhill quickly.

^ That's what I meant. An electromagnetic storm as I said in my post or some other natural phenomena. There was no way that Kirk could have known there was a crisis unfolding until after Reliant fired on Enterprise.

I think we're missing a key point here: Kirk was evidently intimately involved with the development of Genesis. She even asks, "Why are you taking Genesis away from us?". Then you have the fact that the Reliant is no longer on the assignment given to it, "It's one of ours.". This to me indicates that no other starships are supposedly in the area.

Kirk should've known something was up, even if there wasn't a regulation about raising shields. I mean he does order 'Yellow Alert', which if you watch the movie, means that some type of defensive bubble was activated around the bridge module.

The movie needed to show Kirk being "rusty", this was how they accomplished it.

Carol was referring to Starfleet when she asked: "why are you taking Genesis from us?"

 

[BillJ]

Carol was referring to Starfleet when she asked: "why are you taking Genesis from us?"

Why would she hunt Admiral Kirk down, on assignment aboard the Enterprise, instead of someone from Starfleet actually involved in the project?

Kirk had to be involved at some level or it makes no sense for Carol Marcus to go out of her way to him for information. Then you add the fact that he seemed pretty knowledgeable about the project and had security clearance to materials related to it.

 

[Admiral_Young]

From the Stardate on the Genesis proposal video it looked like it was a couple of years ago when Admiral Kirk was maybe still Chief of Fleet Operations? Or maybe before he decided to teach at the Academy he still had an Admiralty posting that would allow him to oversee Genesis. Yeah Carol was referring to Starfleet when directing her message to Kirk. Jim even asks "Who's taking Genesis..." He had no idea what she was talking about or what was happening because of the garbled communications. Also regarding his comment "It could be nothing..." That was directed towards Spock because he knew that the Enterprise was going into action and needed to defer to the actual commanding officer of the ship. Remember Spock deferred command to Admiral Kirk in the first place after they received that communication from Regula. Spock could have just as easily relayed the message to Starfleet Command and request further orders but out of loyalty and knowing that it was Dr. Marcus put his faith and command in Kirk.