Could Jadzia Dax have been promoted to Commander?

[Bacl]

Question: Could Jadzia Dax have been promoted to commander WITHOUT having to transfer into the command division (i.e. red shirt)?

During the war, she was in command of the Defiant a lot, despite being a Science Officer. I believe that at one point Sisko was transferred to a high position in HQ, and the Admiral said that Dax was being put in permanent command of the Defiant until they retook DS9.

Would they ever have made her a full commander without requiring her change divisions?

In fact, has there ever been a Science Division commander? Is there any stated restriction keeping the sciences from becoming Captains and Admirals?

Finally, could they have ever just given Dax her own ship, even if her rank never got any higher? Do you think a blue shirt wearing science officer could be put in command of a ship, even at Lt. Commander?

 

[Vulcan Princess]

In fact, has there ever been a Science Division commander?

I don't know about your other questions, but Dr. Crusher and Dr. Pulaski were both full commanders, and Counselor Troi got promoted to full commander near the end of the TNG run as well.

 

[neozeks]

Finally, could they have ever just given Dax her own ship, even if her rank never got any higher? Do you think a blue shirt wearing science officer could be put in command of a ship, even at Lt. Commander?

If it's a small ship, yes, it could definitely be commanded by a Lt. Commander. However, Starfleet ship captains, even captains of scientific and hospital ships, have always been in the command division. I assume in the latter cases they were mostly former science and medical officers but it does seem that in order to be given a permanent command or XO position (unlike just hopping in when they are unavailable) you have to transfer to the command division.

 

[Joeman]

It would have been a lot better than being promoted to Becker.

 

[Magnum]

In fact, has there ever been a Science Division commander? Is there any stated restriction keeping the sciences from becoming Captains and Admirals?

Wasn't Janeway in the science division? Heck, so was Spock!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Holding the rank commander doesn't mean you can command a vessel.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think one of the differences between Starfleet and today's navies is that you have to have the actual rank of captain to permanantly command a starship, regardless of its size. Smaller support ships like (a Sydney-class transport, for example) may not have permanant captains and could have almost any command-level officer as their captains since that may only be deployed on very short individual missions lasting only a few days or even weeks in duration, IMO...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One wonders why Jadzia was even a science officer to begin with. She rarely ever actually *acted* like one. When was the last time she actually did something scientific? I mean, of course she's qualified and intelligent, but we almost never actually saw her doing things that science officers do.

They should have just moved her over to command and be done with it.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Well, it was Dax's research about the Denorios Belt that led to the discovery of the wormwhole. I would imagine that Dax was probably Starfleet's top authority about it and had ongoing research projects dedicated towards it and the Orbs.

The only problem is that ongoing research projects doesn't make for good dramatic television, so I figure that a lot of Dax's scientific work was just done offscreen. But IIRC, Dax was DS9's second officer, and when the war broke out, almost everyone was doing jobs they originally didn't come to DS9 for, IMO...

 

[Jono]

Weren't Spock and McCoy captains in the end of the TOS movies?

As for can a Lt Commander in the sciences division command a ship the answer is yes. Dax was given command of the Defiant for several weeks during the Dominion War and she didn't change from sciences to command colours.

The last time Jadzia did anything scientific was probably "One Little Ship" when she went into the "Honey, I Shrunk the Runabout" Nebula.

 

[doctorfoto]

Yeah, that whole rank vs senior staff thing has always confused me.

I mean if Jadzia had been made a full Cmdr, wouldn't that have placed her in a rank higher than the then Major Kira? (assuming that a Bajoran Colonel is the equivalent to a Starfleet Commander). Of course as designated First Officer, Kira would have command - but it just seems weird.

But yeah, that whole senior staff thing must be the trump card. Otherwise, of the thousands of officers stationed on DS9 - none of them could have ranks higher than the senior staff, and we know that couldn't have been true. Technically, Nog and most of the engineering staff outranked O'Brien, but as Chief Operations Officer, he called the shots.

I kinda wish that the senior staff would have had some sort of uniform designation marking them as such, so that all the new and visiting Starfleet officers would know who was doing what. Though I imagine the in-universe explanation would be that all officers familiarize themselves with who the senior staff is before visiting new stations or ships. It would still be nice though.

 

[neozeks]

I think one of the differences between Starfleet and today's navies is that you have to have the actual rank of captain to permanantly command a starship, regardless of its size.

I don't think that's the case. It seems rather unwise to limit yourself like that. I think it's just that there are many people of captain rank around gunning for commands and since they have an advantage over lower ranked officers, they get commands even of smaller ships.

But IIRC, Dax was DS9's second officer, and when the war broke out, almost everyone was doing jobs they originally didn't come to DS9 for, IMO...

Before Worf came aboard, she was the third officer, actually, Kira was second (well, i guess you could say Dax was the second Starfleet officer). Afterwards, Worf took that place. Dax was just very good at other jobs, like the ocasional command, beside science. But since she was still the station's science officer and her command asignments were always temporary, she remained in the science division.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think one of the differences between Starfleet and today's navies is that you have to have the actual rank of captain to permanantly command a starship, regardless of its size.

I don't think that's the case. It seems rather unwise to limit yourself like that. I think it's just that there are many people of captain rank around gunning for commands and since they have an advantage over lower ranked officers, they get commands even of smaller ships.

I disagree. I think it's a matter of Starfleet policy that you have to be a full captain to permanantly command a starship (temporary commands are probably a different matter altogether). In the VOY episode "Equinox," we saw a ship that was perhaps not much bigger than the Defiant (and a fraction of the size of the Enterprise-D), and there was a full captain in the center seat. Same thing with the comparable-sized Oberth-class ship in Star Trek III. If Starfleet followed the policies of today's navies, those smaller ships might have had commanders as their permanant captains.

But IIRC, Dax was DS9's second officer, and when the war broke out, almost everyone was doing jobs they originally didn't come to DS9 for, IMO...

Before Worf came aboard, she was the third officer, actually, Kira was second (well, i guess you could say Dax was the second Starfleet officer).

That's not really how it works. The first officer is the second-in-command, and that was was Kira. The next officer in the chain of command was Dax, making her the second officer. That's how it was with Data aboard the Enterprise-D as well.

Afterwards, Worf took that place.

I don't think so. As strategic operations officer, Worf's duties were mostly confined to the Defiant (and anything dealing with the Klingons). If anything, Sisko had to invent a position for Worf because it previously didn't exist on the station. On the other hand, Dax was already second officer long before Worf arrived and was equal in rank to him by then.

Now, I do think Worf became second officer after Jadzia Dax died, however...

 

[neozeks]

I disagree. I think it's a matter of Starfleet policy that you have to be a full captain to permanantly command a starship (temporary commands are probably a different matter altogether). In the VOY episode "Equinox," we saw a ship that was perhaps not much bigger than the Defiant (and a fraction of the size of the Enterprise-D), and there was a full captain in the center seat. Same thing with the comparable-sized Oberth-class ship in Star Trek III. If Starfleet followed the policies of today's navies, those smaller ships might have had commanders as their permanant captains.

Yeah, I was thinking exactly about those cases. In the end, both theories are equally valid in explaining the situation we see on screen. Though I would like to point out that Sisko had command of DS9 while still being commander. Why would a small command like the Equinox require you to be captain while a station like DS9 (that i assume was at least in the same range in terms of personnel, if not larger) wouldn't? Plus, in season 3, aside from DS9, Sisko was also in command of the Defiant, while still being a commander.

That's not really how it works. The first officer is the second-in-command, and that was was Kira. The next officer in the chain of command was Dax, making her the second officer. That's how it was with Data aboard the Enterprise-D as well.

Sorry, you're right. I wasn't thinking and I mixed up the terms.

I don't think so. As strategic operations officer, Worf's duties were mostly confined to the Defiant (and anything dealing with the Klingons). If anything, Sisko had to invent a position for Worf because it previously didn't exist on the station. On the other hand, Dax was already second officer long before Worf arrived and was equal in rank to him by then.

Hmm, interesting. I always had the impression that while Kira served as Sisko's XO for the station in general, Worf was his XO for Starfleet matters, including the Defiant, as well as the second officer for the station, after Kira, trumping Dax because of his command division position. If what you're saying is true, in a situation where Sisko and Kira were unavailable, leaving just Dax and Worf available, Dax would have command if they were on the station, while Worf would have command if they were on the Defiant. We have seen the second situation on the series, but I can't remember if we ever saw the first one.

 

[milo bloom]

As for why she was wearing blue, the Spock comparison is probably best. There's at least one instance in TOS where Kirk is missing and there's a comment about Spock possibly being given command of the Enterprise, and of course in the movies that's actually done. While Jadzia had many different abilities and was likely high on Sisko's personal list for his senior staff, she was either assigned the position of science officer because that position needed filling on DS9, or she was doing that job on a ship or something and just transferred straight over. Kinda like Data being the de facto science officer on TNG despite sitting at Ops in a mustard colored uniform.

Sometimes officers are "kludged" into positions where the CO wants them (and sometimes it's where the producers of the show need them, like Spiner's makeup not looking good with blue, or Hoshi wearing blue despite communications later being an ops/support position).

 

[Kai Winn]

mccoy was an admiral in encounter at farpoint. the captain of the evil equinox was a scientist.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I disagree. I think it's a matter of Starfleet policy that you have to be a full captain to permanantly command a starship (temporary commands are probably a different matter altogether). In the VOY episode "Equinox," we saw a ship that was perhaps not much bigger than the Defiant (and a fraction of the size of the Enterprise-D), and there was a full captain in the center seat. Same thing with the comparable-sized Oberth-class ship in Star Trek III. If Starfleet followed the policies of today's navies, those smaller ships might have had commanders as their permanant captains.

Yeah, I was thinking exactly about those cases. In the end, both theories are equally valid in explaining the situation we see on screen. Though I would like to point out that Sisko had command of DS9 while still being commander. Why would a small command like the Equinox require you to be captain while a station like DS9 (that i assume was at least in the same range in terms of personnel, if not larger) wouldn't? Plus, in season 3, aside from DS9, Sisko was also in command of the Defiant, while still being a commander.

Personally, I think DS9 originally warranted a commander's billet (prior to "Emissary") because it was considered more of a public relations desk job than anything else. I do think there were captains and admirals who were making the really big decisions in the Bajor Sector, but Sisko was their man in the field (Sisko did seem to have less autonomy than a starship captain in his dealings with Starfleet early in the series). His promotion to captain may have been to justify the bigger role the station was playing in the sector and to give him more authority.

As far as the Defiant, though, I believe that it was considered part of DS9's vehicle inventory (like the runabouts) than an independent starship.

As strategic operations officer, Worf's duties were mostly confined to the Defiant (and anything dealing with the Klingons). If anything, Sisko had to invent a position for Worf because it previously didn't exist on the station. On the other hand, Dax was already second officer long before Worf arrived and was equal in rank to him by then.

Hmm, interesting. I always had the impression that while Kira served as Sisko's XO for the station in general, Worf was his XO for Starfleet matters, including the Defiant, as well as the second officer for the station, after Kira, trumping Dax because of his command division position. If what you're saying is true, in a situation where Sisko and Kira were unavailable, leaving just Dax and Worf available, Dax would have command if they were on the station, while Worf would have command if they were on the Defiant. We have seen the second situation on the series, but I can't remember if we ever saw the first one.

I think what complicates the whole Dax and Worf thing was that they frequently took turns being in charge of specific missions. Both commanded the Defiant on occasion, and in the episode "Change of Heart," they were acting more like husband and wife than commander and subordinate, and the issue of who was in charge of that mission never really came up at all between them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for why she was wearing blue, the Spock comparison is probably best.

I view that as a special case, because Spock was specifically said to be both first officer and science officer. He would have been entitled to wear either command or science colors. In fact we have seen him in both. He had to pick one, so he must have thought that he was more of a scientist than a commander and thus picked science blue.

As for Jadzia, her only listed position was science officer. So naturally she would wear blue. But as I said, we rarely actually saw her doing scientific work. Why invent the character and call her a scientist if she can't BE a scientist? They should have made Jadzia a command officer and made someone *else* the scientist. Hell, TNG never had a main character who was a science officer, and they got along just fine.

 

[neozeks]

But as I said, we rarely actually saw her doing scientific work.

Well, she was the person everybody turned to whenever there was some kind of strange scientific phenomenon.

 

[Withers]

Admiral Toddman was an Admiral who wore Security/Engineering division colors. Granted, he was the only character ever shown on screen who did this, it still happened. So I think even if they had promoted her to Commander she would still have worn blue.

-Withers-​