Fear ye not; the purpose of my question remains thoroughly in the aforementioned what if territory, and has naught to do with the bungling of those crayon-snorting incompetents.
Could Equinox have turned Voyager around?
- Thread starter Riley
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I'm so sick and tired of Ron Moore and his nonsense. I'm sorry, but I don't regard him as the last word in science-fiction television and I wasn't that impressed by his handling of "DS9", let alone most of "Battlestar Galactica". Overrated, in my opinion.
And I'm sick and tired of this belief that "Voyager" had to be Trek's version of "BSG". To me, it's just another anal excuse to bash the show.
If they didn't want to feature the realities of a single ship, stranded and trying to find its way home (limited shuttle and torpedo supply, limited repairs, crew going generational), they should've gone with a different premise.
I loved VOY, but let's not be disingenuous; there was plenty to bash - and it was largely due to the incompetence of the writing staff and UPN's meddling.
In any case, as has been pointed out already in the thread multiple times no one here is asking that Voyager become some kind of depressing nuBSG clone with characters who are -at best- antiheroes; merely that actions and events in any given episode have a permanent consequence instead of being childishly tossed aside courtesy of what was essentially a UPN-mandated weekly reset button.
ALL of the Trek shows had their issues. Including Moore's precious DS9. I can barely stand the last two seasons of that show and TNG. I had once written an essay on my views of each series within the franchise.
And I can think of at least two episodes that had used the reset button in regard to time travel, a device I have NO issues with. Ron Moore can stick his head in a certain part of his body that he cannot see, as far as I'm concerned.
And I can think of at least two episodes that had used the reset button in regard to time travel, a device I have NO issues with. Ron Moore can stick his head in a certain part of his body that he cannot see, as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, because for time travel episodes that generally comes with the territory. You're drawing a false equivalence between this and an entire series forced to work in that format.
Now, did you want to contribute something helpful to the thread, or do you for some reason expect us to endure more of this pointless toxic bitterness?
This.
Trek shows have issues and there's no denying that. But, to set up a premise and then dismiss, downplay or ignore elements that made Voyager unique as an idea.
No, I don't want Moore or some dark and gritty show. I just want things to matter as a course of consequences. Please don't say things are limited only for them to not be so limited.
I don't mind reset buttons in general because status quo sells. But, making it sound like this is a different Trek show because the ship is all by itself then not really paying that off? Disappointing.
Time travel stories usually have a reset button waiting at the end as part of the resolution. The problem with VOY was that reset button was used for virtually everything.
Some examples:
1. "THE CLOUD" - Chakotay says they have 38 torpedoes, with Janeway saying right back, "And no way to replace them when they're gone." They end up using double the torpedo amount throughout the show. Not even a log entry saying they found a way to make new torpedoes, which would have taken... (checks clock) roughly 2-3 seconds to accomplish.
2. "DEADLOCK" - the surviving Voyager is beat to hell, with even the bridge not able to be occupied for days. The ship is pristine in the very next episode with no sign it was damaged.
3. "THE KILLING GAME, PART II" - the final log entry just before the last scene when Janeway meets with the Hirogen and gives them holodeck technology mentions the "damage to Voyager is extreme". The very next episode? Pristine... again.
4. "ALICE" - Chakotay tells Tom they have 'a full complement of shuttles, plus the Delta Flyer'. Full complement? Really? After you PERSONALLY get three destroyed yourself ("INITIATIONS", "UNITY", "NEMESIS", and a fourth about a year and 2/3 later in "NATURAL LAW"), Tom getting 3 destroyed ("PARTURITION", "REAL LIFE", "DAY OF HONOR"), and 2 shuttles given away ("COUNTERPOINT"). TNG lost LESS shuttles than VOY did, and they had THREE shuttlebays and had the ability to get new shuttles from a starbase because they were within range often.
5. The crew complement was 148 in late season 3 ("DISTANT VOICES" and "DISPLACED"), but toward the end of the show ("AUTHOR, AUTHOR"), they have 145. Between those two episodes, they lost a LOT more than 3 people. ("SCIENTIFIC METHOD", "THE KILLING GAME", "LIVING WITNESS", "ONE", "EQUINOX", "ASHES TO ASHES".) When you have a crew count with no way to replace them with other Starfleet people after they die... this becomes a glaring issue.
The problem was the suits, and the writers by not putting in just a few lines of dialogue, insulted the intelligence of the audience by not following their own established counts, dialogue, and story premise. I like VOY, but let's be real... they made a LOT of unforced errors that could have EASILY been fixed.
Which is why they should have expanded the premise by having VOY have more DQ main characters and how their presence there has destabilized the local status quo (the Death of the Caretaker) and them working to fix that, as opposed to "Gilligan's Island in Space".
NuBSG fell apart after only 2 seasons, even Ron Moore couldn't get the "Single Lost Ship" thing to work because it's an inherently limited premise.
Somewhat yes to the first and second parts, and a wholehearted no to the third; to be honest it doesn't seem like you fully thought that out: It's obviously not feasible for a single ship to be expected to fix that situation any more than they already have, unless they decide to stay there (and even then their odds would be slim!). At the end of the day you're simply not going to convince a ship full of people to willingly remain stranded when they largely want to find a way home to their loved ones.
Did you start your own thread for your premise yet?
Well, what I'm really saying is that the whole "Repair the damage they helped do" thing would be the reason why they stay in the general area for a while. Then they find some way to go home (the Female Caretaker) and some of the crew decide to stay while others go back to the Alpha Quadrant. Like the Maquis crew (if they're maintained in this version) who wouldn't have a reason to go back once they find out the Dominion destroyed the Maquis.
Just a basic idea with lots of stuff to iron out.
No crew would wish to idly waste time getting back, with none actually desiring to remain behind permanently; Janeway stranded them all and even she wanted to get the hell out. And just because the Maquis as an organisation was eventually destroyed, you assume the majority wouldn't want to get back to everything else they knew and loved??
I don't know how much more plainly I can ask that you respect the OP and the rest of us and post your ideas into your own thread. Jesus, dude...
I don't know how much more plainly I can ask that you respect the OP and the rest of us and post your ideas into your own thread. Jesus, dude...
This thread has had a few tangents as most threads do especially when you try comparing VOY to nuBSG. We have gotten off into the weeds a bit though. Let's go back to the beginning.
UPN would never have allowed this to happen at the time and VOY's budget was already being scrutinized. Moore certainly explored this with his Pegasus arc on nuBSG so I think if you watch that you can get a pretty good idea of where he'd have taken the Equinox had it remained on VOY beyond the two parter.
I can't really argue with anything you posit but with UPN basically demanding VOY be TNG-lite there's not much more we can say on the topic. VOY was not syndicated like TNG and DS9 were at the time so the UPN suits got the final say in pretty much everything the show was doing. After all of the interviews I've seen over the years from Berman and company I think it's safe to say they would have liked to do some of the stuff the premise setup but were not allowed to.
Don't let Berman and them off, though. Voyager had a lot of lower-level issues that I seriously doubt the suits cared about. For instance, I have no doubt they could have spent ten seconds explaining why Voyager suddenly had unlimited torpedo supply, or devoted thirty seconds to Janeway slapping a pip on Harry's collar.
^ This, plus for the sake of this scenario I think it kinda has to be a prerequisite that we ignore the interference of the crayon-snorting UPN suits.
I do think that Equinox would have ended up getting destroyed if not during then prior to the season finale, similar to the nuBSG events (as Akiraprise points out). That has the potential for an emotional impact if, after all that little ship had been through and her restoration/redemption arc, she ended up sacrificed for Voyager to survive.
(Alternatively, maybe Equinox does survive to reach the AQ, and her destruction was how Chuckles kicked the bucket in the "original" finale timeline, before Adml Janeway came back to fix everything
)
I do think that Equinox would have ended up getting destroyed if not during then prior to the season finale, similar to the nuBSG events (as Akiraprise points out). That has the potential for an emotional impact if, after all that little ship had been through and her restoration/redemption arc, she ended up sacrificed for Voyager to survive.
(Alternatively, maybe Equinox does survive to reach the AQ, and her destruction was how Chuckles kicked the bucket in the "original" finale timeline, before Adml Janeway came back to fix everything
)
Honestly, if they kept the Equinox then maybe Carey wouldn't have such a weird death.^ This, plus for the sake of this scenario I think it kinda has to be a prerequisite that we ignore the interference of the crayon-snorting UPN suits.
I do think that Equinox would have ended up getting destroyed if not during then prior to the season finale, similar to the nuBSG events (as Akiraprise points out). That has the potential for an emotional impact if, after all that little ship had been through and her restoration/redemption arc, she ended up sacrificed for Voyager to survive.
(Alternatively, maybe Equinox does survive to reach the AQ, and her destruction was how Chuckles kicked the bucket in the "original" finale timeline, before Adml Janeway came back to fix everything
You know I'm embarrassed to admit I was certain he'd been killed by that monster in Basics Pt1/2, but you're right! Yes, absolutely - in fact he'd have been the perfect choice for chief engineer of Equinox
This actually does not surprise me in the slightest
Yes, which is why in episodes that take place in Voyager's past ("RELATIVITY", "FURY"), Carey appears, but in 'real time', he was absent between "STATE OF FLUX" and "FRIENDSHIP ONE".
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