Could books Ever become Canon?

[Steve Roby]

* shrugs * I dunno. I'd like to think that if Trek had a system like that used by Star Wars for determining canoncity, then a lot of the potential headaches involved with so many tie-ins would be far less than it would be now.

No, thanks. Lucas himself has said as far as he's concerned the EU stuff isn't canon. So EU is apocryphal, and several different kinds of apocryphal (G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon) at that. That sounds like more headaches, not fewer.

 

[Unicron]

That's true, but he hasn't made a concentrated effort to insure that material is ignored or overwritten. At worst, he's said that some of the stuff dealing with the timeline outside of the movies doesn't reflect the way he would do it, but it's still a valid way. Lucas has also included small nods to the EU in the films.

Bottom line is, no matter what aspects of the EU different fans like and dislike, they don't get into arguments over it being part of the continuity. It's simply accepted as such. Whereas in the Trek franchise, non-televised media is second class at best.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That's true, but he hasn't made a concentrated effort to insure that material is ignored or overwritten. At worst, he's said that some of the stuff dealing with the timeline outside of the movies doesn't reflect the way he would do it, but it's still a valid way. Lucas has also included small nods to the EU in the films.

Actually, onscreen "canonical" ST has included numerous nods to the books and comics.

F?ranz Joseph's designs, floor plans and ships' names, classes and numbers.

Diane Duane re-used her premise of "The Wounded Sky" in a TNG episode, but her female "glass arachnoid" alien scientist became a seemingly humanoid male Traveler.

Alien sketches from the "Starfleet Medical Reference Manual" in DS9.

Sulu's first name (ST VI) came directly from the Vonda McIntyre novels.

The popularity of Konom the turncoat Klingon in DC Comics post-ST II comics possibly helped to inspire the concept of putting Worf into TNG at the last minute. Certainly, fans used to quiz GR about Konom at conventions.

Several episodes have included salutes to TAS.

Bottom line is, no matter what aspects of the EU different fans like and dislike, they don't get into arguments over it being part of the continuity.

They don't? I doubt that very much.

How did they handle the SW comic where Jabba the Hutt was introduced as a fat humanoid? If SW tie-ins routinely inform the series, Jabba should have stayed that way when introduced in "The Empire Strikes Back".

Whereas in the Trek franchise, non-televised media is second class at best.

How is not being "canon" making the tie-ins second class?

Sure, I was hearing fans label the novels as such way before 1989, which is when Richard Arnold issued Gene Roddenberry's memo from the ST Office. I heard fans telling me they were refusing to read the novelization of TMP, because they'd heard that GR had filled it with stuff that never happens in the movie. Ditto McIntyre's ST II and III's novelizations, which had a romance between Saavik and David, a captain promotion for Sulu, and many additional characters and scenes.

No one had decreed anything about "ST canon" at that point.

Let's imagine for a moment that JJ Abrams had simply added William Shatner playing Old Kirk to the ST XI script. Only about one percent of ST fans read all the books. Shatner's novels were very popular, so let's exaggerate that ten percent of fans have read them. Certainly, while its likely the general public caught "Generations", it's unlikely they knew to read "The Return".

So they go along to ST XI and there's Old Kirk, fully recovered from his Nexus death and now many years older than when his character died onscreen.

People say, "I thought Kirk died in 'Generations'?"

And the answer is: "Oh, you should have read the tie-in novel trilogy, now long out of print, where Kirk was resurrected - twice - first by Romulans and then by Borg nanites!"

I see nothing wrong with a show's creator setting up a very clear line for the stories being told by licensed tie-in novels, omics, short stories, RPB manuals and even the little cut-out character biographies on the back of action figure packaging. This material should not routinely inform the parent work. And tie-ins, which can sometimes be what solidifies a new fan's resolve to follow a series, should be an accurate depiction, at time of writing, as what can be extrapolated from the screen.

And for SW, such material also does not mandate information that the parent work must follow. As you said, Lucas has "also included small nods to the EU in the films". And you know what? So has ST's showrunners and scriptwriters.

 

[Steve Roby]

That's true, but he hasn't made a concentrated effort to insure that material is ignored or overwritten.

Nor has anyone involved with Star Trek TV or movies.

Lucas has also included small nods to the EU in the films.

Filmed Trek has also included small nods to the books in various ways.

Whereas in the Trek franchise, non-televised media is second class at best.

It's funny how damn near everyone who says the Trek novels are second class is a Star Wars fan. And a lot of them, aside from yourself, are Star Wars fans who don't understand that Star Wars tie-ins are no more canonical than Star Trek tie-ins.

(Oh, yeah: Babylon 5 fans. There's, what, 10.7 canon novels out of 18 original novels! Woo fucking hoo! Star Trek has around 500 novels. I'd rather have a good, solid, productive, entertaining novel line than a dead novel line that produced a negligible number of books, regardless of their canon status.)

Bottom line: the only people who think Trek books are second class because they aren't canon are people who are obsessed with canon.

 

[Mach5]

Bottom line: the only people who think Trek books are second class because they aren't canon are people who are obsessed with canon.

Canon is like the 'Prime directive' - to hell with it!

 

[Unicron]

Actually, onscreen "canonical" ST has included numerous nods to the books and comics.

F?ranz Joseph's designs, floor plans and ships' names, classes and numbers.

Diane Duane re-used her premise of "The Wounded Sky" in a TNG episode, but her female "glass arachnoid" alien scientist became a seemingly humanoid male Traveler.

Alien sketches from the "Starfleet Medical Reference Manual" in DS9.

Sulu's first name (ST VI) came directly from the Vonda McIntyre novels.

The popularity of Konom the turncoat Klingon in DC Comics post-ST II comics possibly helped to inspire the concept of putting Worf into TNG at the last minute. Certainly, fans used to quiz GR about Konom at conventions.

Several episodes have included salutes to TAS.

And for all of that, is the TM canon because it was referenced in TMP? Is TAS canon? Don't get me wrong, I think it's good to include those details. But I draw a distinction between including something as a nod to the fans and to it being worthwhile, and just borrowing tidbits from offscreen sources when it suits the current script. Doing that is not the same necessarily as respecting the original source or the creators of that source.

By contrast, Aayla Secura (the sexy blue Twi'Lek Jedi) was included in the last two prequels films and the animated Clone Wars series because the character originated in the comics and became very popular with the fans. Lucas naturally didn't have to include her, but it was nice that he did.

They don't? I doubt that very much.

They disagree about the EU all the time, as is natural. But outside of Star Trek, I don't hear such arguments in the vein of "well, it's in a book so it doesn't count!"

How did they handle the SW comic where Jabba the Hutt was introduced as a fat humanoid? If SW tie-ins routinely inform the series, Jabba should have stayed that way when introduced in "The Empire Strikes Back".

You mean ROTJ? If you're referring to how Jabba was depicted in the comic version of ANH (he appeared as a furry alien with a vaguely Imperial uniform), I personally just ignore it and I think many other fans do too. The comic writers were trying to acknowledge the fact that Lucas had originally wanted to included Jabba in ANH (or at least a human representative, the fat guy), but couldn't in the original version because of time and budget issues. Just as I overlook how the ROTJ comic has Luke actually giving his saber to Vader when he says he won't fight, which clearly doesn't happen in the film.

How is not being "canon" making the tie-ins second class?

Because that's the essence of what Gene wrote in his memo, though certainly it might not have meant to evolve as it has over the past decades. The difference between how the two franchises do things is, Star Wars allows offscreen material to be valid until a movie says it isn't. For all intents and purposes, it might as well be canon. Star Trek takes the opposite route, things don't count unless they're in a televised media. And the PTB are free to ignore what they want, even with the stories that have done very well with the fans (DS9's Relaunch novels for example).

I see nothing wrong with a show's creator setting up a very clear line for the stories being told by licensed tie-in novels, omics, short stories, RPB manuals and even the little cut-out character biographies on the back of action figure packaging. This material should not routinely inform the parent work. And tie-ins, which can sometimes be what solidifies a new fan's resolve to follow a series, should be an accurate depiction, at time of writing, as what can be extrapolated from the screen.

And I agree, but I draw a distinction between the different forms of media serving to inform each other (which I view as a good thing) and one set of works being essentially bound to the other regardless of what happens.

As an example of what I mean, one thing ENT did right as a series was giving us good Andorians. They're supposed to be one of the key members of the Federation, but in the several decades of prior Trek they were barely mentioned. And since the televised media can't tell every possible story, then I see no reason why a licensed book or game can't take up that role of fleshing out the species more. The creators are already required to uphold existing continuity with canon (as they should be), so it's not like Paramount has to fear them making up tons of new stuff. I think part of the problem is that, unlike in Wars, there's nothing to coordinate what the different authors do. Nothing to keep the continuity as intact as possible. That is why it would be utterly impossible to integrate offscreen material with onscreen material.

It's funny how damn near everyone who says the Trek novels are second class is a Star Wars fan. And a lot of them, aside from yourself, are Star Wars fans who don't understand that Star Wars tie-ins are no more canonical than Star Trek tie-ins.

(Oh, yeah: Babylon 5 fans. There's, what, 10.7 canon novels out of 18 original novels! Woo fucking hoo! Star Trek has around 500 novels. I'd rather have a good, solid, productive, entertaining novel line than a dead novel line that produced a negligible number of books, regardless of their canon status.)

Bottom line: the only people who think Trek books are second class because they aren't canon are people who are obsessed with canon.

* shrugs *

I like all three series. As a Star Wars fan, I like being able to read stuff that continues the story (or takes place prior to the main story). I like seeing characters beside the main group of heroes. And as a Star Trek fan, I think a lot of the same material exists in the expansions, but it means jack shit to Paramount. I think there's more for them to lose by not treating offscreen material with the same potential viability as a television script. It's the same reason I got annoyed with some of the things that happened with ENT - the writers were free to mess up a lot of stuff and ignore the basic concept of the series, a Trek before TOS. And it showed when the series suffered.

Is it possible that the fans who read the novels only account for a tiny percentage in part because of the view that such things are, so to speak, second class? I'm asking out of curiosity, cause I don't know. But I think it is possible for many fans getting into the series to feel a little disillusioned to get a novel or tech manual they enjoy, and then hear from other fans that "sorry, Paramount doesn't include books."

 

[Marie1]

No one, at all, is saying that because the books aren't canon that they don't count.
No one is trying to say that the books are second class, or that are or should be all over willy nilly with regard to continuity because they aren't canon.

The only thing we're saying is that they are not canon, will not be, and all that means, is that when a movie or series is made, it can potentially contradict whats there. If the book says a character's hair is black, but they have a brown-haired actress... no one is allowed to flail about in panic.

I don't think most people are disillusioned by this at all. It makes no sense whatsoever. ST 11-14 will take many years, new series are unlikely. People who want to know what the crews are up to will naturally want to read the novels, which in my experience are mostly very well written. Paramount and CBS aren't plotting to contradict the books.

 

[Steve Roby]

And as a Star Trek fan, I think a lot of the same material exists in the expansions, but it means jack shit to Paramount.

It means jack shit to George Lucas, too, as far as I can tell from his quotes on the subject.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

At one point Gene Roddenbury was saying that parts of TOS weren't canon and that anything from TNG that contradicted TOS was 'real'.

That should tell you a lot. It is best to ignore this type of thing, it really makes no difference unless you are trying to use facts to argue a point on a message board.

 

[Unicron]

No one, at all, is saying that because the books aren't canon that they don't count.
No one is trying to say that the books are second class, or that are or should be all over willy nilly with regard to continuity because they aren't canon.

The only thing we're saying is that they are not canon, will not be, and all that means, is that when a movie or series is made, it can potentially contradict whats there. If the book says a character's hair is black, but they have a brown-haired actress... no one is allowed to flail about in panic.

I don't think most people are disillusioned by this at all. It makes no sense whatsoever. ST 11-14 will take many years, new series are unlikely. People who want to know what the crews are up to will naturally want to read the novels, which in my experience are mostly very well written. Paramount and CBS aren't plotting to contradict the books.

Fair enough. I just think that, while it was never the intention of Paramount or Gene (maybe ) to create the idea that these sources were second class at best, that is the effect that was created. I'm not very familiar at all with TAS, but the impression that I've had is it's only non-canon because Roddenberry decreed it. I'm inclined to think that such a series is not really a tie-in but a continuation of TOS, and thus shouldn't be treated that way.

* shrugs again *

I don't really care much about canon, but in some respects it is a little disillusioning. Just as it was disillusioning to watch ENT and enjoy the parts of it that were good, but then see other parts that weren't because the production staff wasn't interested in maintaining continuity or premise. They were copying stuff cause they thought it would work. It's seeing problems that could have been avoided that annoys me.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

if the books did become canon, what difference would it make? Would they be any more or less enjoyable because of it? The whole issue of canon is one that interests me less and less all the time (and I didn't care that much to begin with).

 

[captcalhoun]

welll, if they did suddenly become canon, all of them, you'd have had a five year mission that lasted about twenty years and four different ways the 5YM ended and two different fates for Tom Riker and some other characters...

 

[Marie1]

But when it came to the DS9R... we'd have some major canon awesomeness!!! The books are great, not second class at all, which is probably why the issue of "canon" comes up... but so many books, errors are bound to happen... and we can't expect every director to read every book and know them all before they work on ST.

 

[Mach5]

But when it came to the DS9R... we'd have some major canon awesomeness!!! The books are great, not second class at all, which is probably why the issue of "canon" comes up... but so many books, errors are bound to happen... and we can't expect every director to read every book and know them all before they work on ST.

Exactly, there are simply too many books out there. Hell, even episodes and movies occasionally contradict each other. Personally, while I never really was a canon freak, I must admit that I wouldn't be happy if one day some movie or a TV show debunks the events in ENT relaunch novels (and I doubt I'm the only one who feels that way).

 

[Marie1]

And I'd love something that "confirms" whats happening in the DS9R- but if it doesn't happen... *shrug* I'm getting a ton of enjoyment from it... and what if the new whatever, continuation, had a terrible director who ruined everything? I'd rather have the books.

 

[dreadpiraterose]

I think Gene's decision on the matter will stand. It's too late to make them canon, as a whole. Too much is contradictory.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And for all of that, is the TM canon because it was referenced in TMP? Is TAS canon? Don't get me wrong, I think it's good to include those details. But I draw a distinction between including something as a nod to the fans and to it being worthwhile, and just borrowing tidbits from offscreen sources when it suits the current script. Doing that is not the same necessarily as respecting the original source or the creators of that source.

By contrast, Aayla Secura (the sexy blue Twi'Lek Jedi) was included in the last two prequels films and the animated Clone Wars series because the character originated in the comics and became very popular with the fans. Lucas naturally didn't have to include her, but it was nice that he did.

But does Aayla's onscreen appearance mean that every aspect of the comic, from which she originated, is SW canon?

No. So your example is not a "contrast" at all.

I just think that, while it was never the intention of Paramount or Gene (maybe ) to create the idea that these sources were second class at best, that is the effect that was created.

When episode and movie scriptwriters wrote for TOS, the TOS movies and TNG, GR himself had the time and inclination - and the necessity - to reshape them to fit his universe. He never had the same luxury to dedicate that time and effort to every manuscript of the tie-in novels, short stories, comics and RPG manuals.

Surely a show's creator has the right to control who shapes his work.

So... if the ST licensed tie-ins were to all be decreed as "canon", thus informing the future of the live-action series and movies, and perhaps changing the directions of GR's intentions for his characters - novels might have given Riker a wife, the EMH a permanent name, Picard a toupee, Worf a forehead remodelling, Yar resurrected permanently, and the Enterprise-A a purple paint job - and future live-action works would be compelled to address such changes, even though only one percent of the audience had read the books.

I'm not very familiar at all with TAS, but the impression that I've had is it's only non-canon because Roddenberry decreed it. I'm inclined to think that such a series is not really a tie-in but a continuation of TOS, and thus shouldn't be treated that way.

Well, GR had very little input in TAS. The show-runner was DC Fontana. When TNG was being produced, Filmation went up for sale - or rather, bits of it were being sold off - to Hallmark Greeting Cards, IIRC, and it was not definite which companies would end up owning the various Filmation series. There was no guarantee TAS would end up being owned by Paramount; they'd only been a distributor for TAS.

Additionally, in 1989, when Richard Arnold issued the memo in GR's name, DC Fontana and David Gerrold were suing GR to be acknowledged as co-creators of TNG. With the way litigation works, it was probably prudent of GR's lawyer to diminish Ms Fontana's contribution to ST over the years, and if Filmation's spin-off didn't count as canon, that would help.

Thirdly, in 1989, Larry Niven was trying to license his kzinti in a RPG based on "Ringworld", and with them already being part of ST with TAS ("The Slaver Weapon"), and a Pocket novel announced as intending to feature the kzinti ("The Captains' Honor"), again, it's no surprise that GR desired to clear the decks. They also ordered DC Comics to remove M'Ress from issue #1 of the TOS Series II comic.

TAS was a legal minefield in 1989.

 

[I am not Spock]

The Trek books, videogames, comics, etc, IMO should never be made canon.
If you legitimise all that stuff, it may create a mess like the Matrix sequels, where you were REQUIRED to play the game and watch the cartoon to make sense of the live-action movie's story.

You shouldn't have to engage in all the periphery stuff to enjoy the main story. Including EU elements in the SW prequels was OK, but one shouldn't then HAVE to read the EU.

The live action Trek series and movies have enough continuity problems anyway, without bringing in the expanded Trekverse (which comprises TAS, videogames, FASA, books, comics). TOS hardly kept to its own canon from week to week.

 

[I am not Spock]

Besides, come next May, it will all be made non-canon. All of it. All our books and DVDs will disappear (ironically, the only series that will be unaffected is ENT!)

 

[Unicron]

But does Aayla's onscreen appearance mean that every aspect of the comic, from which she originated, is SW canon?

From what I understand, with everything being essentially counted as official, then all of the comic stuff related to Aayla counts as much as her movie cameo till the studio or Lucas says otherwise. And that she has been added to the movie canon means she is a canonical character, along with a number of other characters who had cameos in the films and whose histories are explored in print media.

No. So your example is not a "contrast" at all.

I probably didn't phrase it as well as I could have. I will admit there is a bit of cynicism in my posts, because I've seen how the quality of Trek in the "canon" media (film and movies) has gone down over the past decade or so. And some of that, though certainly not all of it, is due to corner cutting and laziness on the part of the production staff. It's become harder for me, and perhaps many other fans, to expect Paramount to maintain a certain level of quality and not do stuff just to make money. It's when they get greedy that they tend to screw up.

When episode and movie scriptwriters wrote for TOS, the TOS movies and TNG, GR himself had the time and inclination - and the necessity - to reshape them to fit his universe. He never had the same luxury to dedicate that time and effort to every manuscript of the tie-in novels, short stories, comics and RPG manuals.

Surely a show's creator has the right to control who shapes his work.

Of course, and I think Gene had a genuine concern to protect his vision of what Star Trek should be. However, I don't think some of his methods for doing that, particularly later in his life when he wrote the memo, were necessarily sound. Gene was a brilliant guy, but he was also egotistical and prone to being very controlling. He alienated a lot of the other production staff and various cast members through that. And that's why we got some problems like the TNG era humans being too "perfect," rather than a more "evolved" version of humanity. Roddenberry thought that all conflict had to come from some outside source, because humans were that superior.

So... if the ST licensed tie-ins were to all be decreed as "canon", thus informing the future of the live-action series and movies, and perhaps changing the directions of GR's intentions for his characters - novels might have given Riker a wife, the EMH a permanent name, Picard a toupee, Worf a forehead remodelling, Yar resurrected permanently, and the Enterprise-A a purple paint job - and future live-action works would be compelled to address such changes, even though only one percent of the audience had read the books.

* shrugs * Would it be that hard to manage? Given that there's already a requirement for authors to be consistent with the canon media, however far along a current series has progressed, I don't think said authors would think they had an excuse to go wild. Just as those who contribute to the SW franchise don't go out of their way to change things or be as radical as they can be. It's not that hard to be creative within the frame of the existing details. And since it's impossible to avoid all inconsistencies within a television series (as we seen on many occasions), smaller ones could probably be ignored with no issue.

But maybe we should suggest a purple paint job for the new Enterprise... * runs *

I appreciate the TAS information, I haven't really watched much of it.