Could Anakin's Fall to the Dark Side Have Been Done Better?

[LJones41]

In my opinion (since that disclaimer is apparently necessary) no. Anakin shouldn't be tricked in to joining the Dark Side. As @Korsaid, he should start to believe that it is right, rather than "What have I done?" to "Yes, my Master," in the span of a scene.

Like Reverend, I believe that Anakin gave in to evil on his own free will. By a certain point, he knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. He had even contemplated killing the latter. But his own fear of losing Padme led him to deliberately make a deal with the devil. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that chopping off Mace's arm was more about keeping Palpatine alive to help Padme than preventing the Jedi Master from committing a moral wrong.

Even after the rise of the Empire, I believe that Anakin could have walked away. But judging by a post-ROTS novel that was written before Disney's acquisition of the franchise, he had succumbed to his own despair for a while, before he eventually surrendered himself into being a Sith Lord and Palpatine's apprentice. Pity that the novel is no longer considered canon. I thought it was a perfect follow up.

 

[Tuskin38]

The new canon stuff shows him surrendering as well.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd recommend anyone not convinced of this to go back and re-watch the SE version of the holo-message scene from 'Empire Strikes Back' and really pay attention to what's not being said and how it lines up with what's actually going on. Then recall Vader's line to Luke in RotJ: "it's pointless to resist..." He's speaking from experience.

I think I first picked up on it when the Emperor asks in ROTJ "Are certain your feelings on this matter clear, Lord Vader?"

I certainly don't feel that Palpatine wasn't manipulating Anakin, but I also don't get a sense that Anakin had a choice in the matter. And, maybe that is to George Lucas' credit that I feel like Anakin is hemmed in on all sides and that is how Anakin feels.

However, the struggle that I have is that Anakin wants to go to the Dark Side for the sake of power, quicker and easier as Yoda would say, but for the sake of the fact that he had no other options.

It might be a point without a distinction, but it impacts the feel of the scene, from agency to puppet. At least to me.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that chopping off Mace's arm was more about keeping Palpatine alive to help Padme than preventing the Jedi Master from committing a moral wrong.

That is the point of the scene. Anakin states as much by saying "I need him." It has nothing to do with Mace's execution of Palpatine.

 

[DonIago]

For me it's a mix of Anakin's snarkiness coming off as annoying more than endearing coupled with the fact that he knows he's making mistakes and handles it by compounding them. He falls in love with Padme and keeps it to himself (and she enables him). He kills innocent women and children and keeps it to himself (and Padme enables him). How am I supposed to care about a character whose actions range from taking petulant cheap shots at his alleged friend and master to killing people without even belated remorse and who still gets the girl?

I would have liked to have seen a more self-aware Anakin who knew he was making mistakes and actually reached out to his friends for help rather than intentionally isolating himself and being self-righteous.

Hell, with the outbreak of the Clone Wars they even had a handy excuse for how Anakin could have been trying to get help with his problems but been derailed by larger events.

It's not all on Anakin though. Padme enables him, and obviously Palpatine manipulates him. Though I've gottan say, Palpatine's manipulations in the films are so obvious that it does Anakin no favors that he doesn't at any point call him on it. A scene where Anakin was falling (no pun intended) for Palpatine's words even while knowing Palpatine was screwing with him would have helped.

I'd like to see an alternate timeline where it was Obi-Wan who fell instead, because the idea of him cuckolding Anakin and actually giving way to human weakness despite his sincere efforts to do better would have, for me, been a much more compelling story. Plus it would have been a nice twist for the prequel films to reveal that the kids weren't actually Anakin's at all.

 

[LJones41]

I would have liked to have seen a more self-aware Anakin who knew he was making mistakes and actually reached out to his friends for help rather than intentionally isolating himself and being self-righteous.

That doesn't sound true to the situation with me. Anakin was aware that he was considering on making a mistake. But to whom could he turn? Despite their close relationship, I never thought Anakin would find it easy to confide in Obi-Wan. His relationship with the latter was never as easy as it was with Qui-Gon. He and Padme were having difficulty in confiding to each other, due to his friendship with Palpatine and her concerns with the fallout from the Clone Wars. On the other hand, she would have tried to quickly dismiss his fears. Aside from those two and Palpatine, who else was he close to? He already tried confiding to Yoda . . . and received a lecture for his troubles. And those two WERE NEVER close.

I'd like to see an alternate timeline where it was Obi-Wan who fell instead, because the idea of him cuckolding Anakin and actually giving way to human weakness despite his sincere efforts to do better would have, for me, been a much more compelling story.

That strikes me as cheap melodrama, especially for the STAR WARS saga. Obi-Wan already had his weaknesses, especially in regard to Anakin and the Jedi Order. Cuckolding Anakin with an affair with Padme? That sounds cheap to me.

He kills innocent women and children and keeps it to himself (and Padme enables him).

I don't think Padme had enabled Anakin. According to the movie's novelization, she thought the Tuskens got what she believed they had deserved for Shmi's death. This only tells me that she was not the ideal character that many fans wanted to paint her as. Despite this, Anakin had spent the three years between AOTC and ROTS feeling guilty for what he had done to the Tuskens.​

 

[DonIago]

I didn't realize that Jedi were only supposed to turn to other people when it was easy to do so. Furthermore, as a Jedi, I would assume it was his duty to report issues he was having.

I would argue that the way Anakin was handled was cheaper than the idea that Obi-Wan might have turned out to be more fallible than we're led to believe based on the films. I'm also not saying that Obi-Wan would have set out to cuckold Anakin. People develop feelings they sometimes don't want to have, which is what I'd see being the case for Obi-Wan. Anakin meanwhile was all too happy to fall for Padme and who gives a damn what anyone else thinks?

It shouldn't matter whether Padme thinks the Tuskens got what they deserved. She was the queen of a planet and she's now a senator, and she surely knows enough about the Jedi to know that they're not supposed to go on killing sprees. If anything, you're just reinforcing the notion that she enabled Anakin's bad behavior by keeping it to herself. And if Anakin felt guilty about what he did, that certainly never comes up in the films.

Anakin's fall is all about him and to some degree Padme consistently placing their own desires over anything and everything else. The only reason things don't turn out even worse for the galaxy is because Obi-Wan sneaks onto Padme's ship when she leaves for Mustafar. If Padme had really loved Anakin, maybe she should have done more to try to save him.

 

[Reverend]

I think I first picked up on it when the Emperor asks in ROTJ "Are certain your feelings on this matter clear, Lord Vader?"

I certainly don't feel that Palpatine wasn't manipulating Anakin, but I also don't get a sense that Anakin had a choice in the matter. And, maybe that is to George Lucas' credit that I feel like Anakin is hemmed in on all sides and that is how Anakin feels.

However, the struggle that I have is that Anakin wants to go to the Dark Side for the sake of power, quicker and easier as Yoda would say, but for the sake of the fact that he had no other options.

It might be a point without a distinction, but it impacts the feel of the scene, from agency to puppet. At least to me.

Anakin absolutely did have a choice. He chose to feed his fear and anxiety over the visions of Padme's death. He chose to ignore Yoda's advice. He chose interfere with Sidious's "arrest" after being told to stay put. He chose to kneel and become a Sith apprentice and he chose to betray everything he'd fought for and slaughter younglings. At any point he could have said "no" and walked away. The universe would not have imploded as a result.

The reason he didn't do that was just pure selfishness. He didn't want to loose Padme and he went to the most desperate extreme to try and keep her, even though a blind persion could see Sidious was almost certainly lying about the dark side's ability to cheat death. Indeed, he didn't even say he *had* the the ability, just that there was a *possibility* they could discover it together. Talk about a slim hope!

 

[fireproof78]

Anakin absolutely did have a choice. He chose to feed his fear and anxiety over the visions of Padme's death. He chose to ignore Yoda's advice. He chose interfere with Sidious's "arrest" after being told to stay put. He chose to kneel and become a Sith apprentice and he chose to betray everything he'd fought for and slaughter younglings. At any point he could have said "no" and walked away. The universe would not have imploded as a result.

The reason he didn't do that was just pure selfishness. He didn't want to loose Padme and he went to the most desperate extreme to try and keep her, even though a blind persion could see Sidious was almost certainly lying about the dark side's ability to cheat death. Indeed, he didn't even say he *had* the the ability, just that there was a *possibility* they could discover it together. Talk about a slim hope!

And, again, cognitively, I get that, and love the novel for its portrayal of Anakin's struggle.

I struggle with getting that from the film.

 

[Reverend]

And, again, cognitively, I get that, and love the novel for its portrayal of Anakin's struggle.

I struggle with getting that from the film.

I don't know, I thought this sequence made it pretty clear for me.
It's about temptation and giving in and I think people often forget that Anakin is meant to be a tragic figure, not necessarily a heroic one. He was never able to live up to the expectations put upon him and (until the very end) was unable to put his own desires aside, despite knowing full well that he should. He's quite unlike Luke in that sense because Luke grew up with no such expectations made of him (aside doing his chores.)
I know the "Chosen One" thing gets grumbled at allot, but that rather misses the point that this is to some degree a deconstruction of that trope. The "Chosen One" fails and instead of triumphing over evil, he becomes it.

The thing to remember about Lucas is that he's a visual story teller. It pays to pay less attention the the dialogue (which he's always been upfront about being terrible at) and more to the imagery. Same for Christensen in a sense. It sounds bizarre, but try watching his scenes with the audio set to a different language. Suddenly the subtext of his acting choices become much clearer when not saddled with the clunky text. He's a better actor that most give him credit for.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't know, I thought this sequence made it pretty clear for me.
It's about temptation and giving in and I think people often forget that Anakin is meant to be a tragic figure, not necessarily a heroic one. He was never able to live up to the expectations put upon him and (until the very end) was unable to put his own desires aside, despite knowing full well that he should. He's quite unlike Luke in that sense because Luke grew up with no such expectations made of him (aside doing his chores.)
I know the "Chosen One" thing gets grumbled at allot, but that rather misses the point that this is to some degree a deconstruction of that trope. The "Chosen One" fails and instead of triumphing over evil, he becomes it.

The thing to remember about Lucas is that he's a visual story teller. It pays to pay less attention the the dialogue (which he's always been upfront about being terrible at) and more to the imagery. Same for Christensen in a sense. It sounds bizarre, but try watching his scenes with the audio set to a different language. Suddenly the subtext of his acting choices become much clearer when not saddled with the clunky text. He's a better actor that most give him credit for.

Those are all incredibly fair points, and I do appreciate the scene, much in the way that the Tusken scene shows Anakin as well.

Again, the visuals are there, but the connection with Anakin and feeling like he had choice and agency is there in some scenes, but feels absent in others.

However, I am willing to give it another view after this discussion, since ROTS is my least favorite of the films and I have revisited less often than the other two PT films.

 

[DonIago]

I do feel like I should read the RotS novelization at some point, but I also suspect it's just going to make me annoyed with Anakin and the Jedi (regardless of whether I find them sympathetic) all over again.

 

[LJones41]

It shouldn't matter whether Padme thinks the Tuskens got what they deserved. She was the queen of a planet and she's now a senator, and she surely knows enough about the Jedi to know that they're not supposed to go on killing sprees. If anything, you're just reinforcing the notion that she enabled Anakin's bad behavior by keeping it to herself. And if Anakin felt guilty about what he did, that certainly never comes up in the films.

I don't think it was simply about Padme enabling Anakin's behavior. I think it was about Padme allowing her moral compass to laspe, due to her own feelings about what the Tuskens had done to Shmi Skywalker. Padme was NOT perfect. I honestly never thought she was. And yet, so many fans tried to pretend that she was . . . to the point that they turned a blind eye to her imperfections. Why, I don't know. There is nothing more boring to me than a perfect protagonist.

I would argue that the way Anakin was handled was cheaper than the idea that Obi-Wan might have turned out to be more fallible than we're led to believe based on the films.

Handled cheaper? How? Was his turn to evil supposed to be noble or something? What were you expecting? That he simply wanted power for its own sake? What is it exactly? And not only did I thought the Prequel Trilogy films made it clear cut that Anakin and Obi-Wan were both flawed in their own ways, so did the films of the Original Trilogy.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the PT presented far more flaws and far less strengths, so they felt less like real people.

 

[Spock_the_Vulcan]

Well the prequels were more focused on special effects, as opposed to character development, and plotline.

 

[Prax]

The prequels were focused heavily on plot.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Those are all incredibly fair points, and I do appreciate the scene, much in the way that the Tusken scene shows Anakin as well.

Again, the visuals are there, but the connection with Anakin and feeling like he had choice and agency is there in some scenes, but feels absent in others.

However, I am willing to give it another view after this discussion, since ROTS is my least favorite of the films and I have revisited less often than the other two PT films.

RotS was your least favorite? Curious as to why... certainly, that opening sequence has to be the best of all the SW movies...and for me, the tone of the movie was really what we should have gotten in the first 2

 

[fireproof78]

RotS was your least favorite? Curious as to why... certainly, that opening sequence has to be the best of all the SW movies...and for me, the tone of the movie was really what we should have gotten in the first 2

For me, the tone of the film was too dark. It lack any sort of feeling of hope, and left me feeling extremely dour and depressed. Now, my opinion over the years has slowly lightened up, but it isn't a film that I turn on just for the sake of it. I can put on TPM or AOTC, the OT or TFA, and just enjoy them and find them to be cool movies with pretty visuals, if nothing else.

But, for me, the visuals of ROTS don't offset a lot of the tone. Even the scene that @Reverend linked to, which demonstrates the visual filmmaking that Lucas was going for, is something I can acknowledge is well shot, well done, appropriately atmospheric for the scene. But, it leaves just so much darkness in its wake that makes me very uncomfortable, and bleak and there is no letting up until the credits role.

Yeah, I get it, its supposed to be dark. I get that. But, that doesn't make me want to watch it or find it enjoyable. Couple that with a struggle to identify with with Anakin as a character, and the expressed attitude that he was completely lost, aside from Padme, is a frustrating one. For me, it feels like all the characters just give up. Anakin gives up on being good, Obi-Wan and Yoda give up on Anakin, and Padme gives up on living. Padme also gets sidelined, unfortunately, so we lack the dynamic of that trio that I found very interesting towards the end of AOTC. Sadly lacking in ROTS.

Look, I know I'll get a lot of flak for this one-it's an extremely unpopular opinion, even among my close friends who are Star Wars nerds. I know that the inevitable question will be "Well, what about ESB?" and "It's supposed to be dark. Anakin is a tragic figure!" Ok, and that's all well and good. But, at the end of the film, it's pretty much a world turned upside down. The Jedi are bad, Obi-Wan is a liar, Anakin is evil, and there is no reason to hope, no light at the end of the tunnel, just another train.


Sorry, "A New Hope" or not, that is a horrible note to end a film on, and I don't find it enjoyable.

Alright, let me put on my helmet and flak jacket for all the response.

 

[USS Firefly]

For me, the tone of the film was too dark. It lack any sort of feeling of hope, and left me feeling extremely dour and depressed. Now, my opinion over the years has slowly lightened up, but it isn't a film that I turn on just for the sake of it. I can put on TPM or AOTC, the OT or TFA, and just enjoy them and find them to be cool movies with pretty visuals, if nothing else.

I had the same feeling with TFA, where all my hero's from the original trilogy where depressed and had lost all hope.

 

[DonIago]

I find that to be a pretty good reasoning for why one wouldn't want to rewatch RotS actually. I enjoy dark films myself, and I find RotS the most palatable of the prequel films, so it doesn't bother me to watch it again from time to time, but I can respect the argument that it's too dark for some peoples' tastes.

 

[fireproof78]

I had the same feeling with TFA, where all my hero's from the original trilogy where depressed and had lost all hope.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the trend, whether in the books or the films.