'CORRECT' OUTCOME OF KOBAYASHI MARU?

[CaptainStoner]

. I'd actually argue that you wouldn't automatically fail for not going in, since the first instinct in a computer simulation would be to take risks that you wouldn't if your real life were on the line (but, at the same time, there wouldn't be much to judge, so you probably wouldn't get top marks).

I agree with that. I would guess that Vulcans might more commonly not enter TNZ in the test. I think it is helpful to Starfleet as another psych test, to see what type of potential Captain that cadet would make. One who doesn't enter TNZ might be more appropriate assigned to a Science or Medical ship. And it's not a bad thing - all types are needed.

I would warp to the KM, then when the Klingons appeared, I'd stealth-launch my most powerful small craft (shuttle if necessary, runabout or captain's yacht if available), and lead the Klingons away at warp while that ship put a tractor on the KM and towed it out of the Zone.

Well played. The Klingons would likely say the same just before firing that last volley.

I wonder if it was possible to get any survivors out. Warp in, beam them over, put them on shuttles/escape craft, and hold off the Klingons as long as possible, along the lines of Captain Kirk Sr.

 

[sonak]

I agree with the thread starter. Sulu makes exactly that choice in the old TOS novel "The Kobayashi Maru." He takes some heat for it, of course.


Wouldn't the significant possibility that this is a trap also contribute to the decision to not violate the Neutral Zone for an attempted rescue? Why was a civilian freighter so close to the Neutral Zone in the first place? I'd guess it was a trap designed either to ambush a Federation ship that attempted a rescue, or designed to provoke the Federation into "starting" a war.

 

[JuanBolio]

I'm reasonably certain that Federation law would forbid an act of genocide such as glassing Qo'noS.

I don't know about that. General Order 24 must exist for some reason.

Kirk: "Scotty! General Order 24, 2 hours!"
Scotty: "Aye, Captain, General Order 24!
"This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified,
and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."

Yeah, glassing a planet is an option that even a single starship captain can decide is appropriate and implement accordingly. He'd probably have to justify it to higher-ups later on, and suffer the consequences if misused, but...

 

[Timo]

...Of course, GO24 could also read something like "A starship commander is allowed to bluff his or her way through a threatening situation by claiming that he or she will use deadly force at the expiration of a specified time period; the choice of type of deadly force is at the commander's professional discretion. In no case is the commander allowed to proceed with the use of deadly force at the conclusion of the bluffing period, unless regulations otherwise pertaining to the use of deadly force apply." or words to that effect.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Kobiashi Maru is about behavior rather than outcome. As long as the prospective command candidate selects a course of action and doesn't panic when it hits the fan, it's all good.

As for my KM, I'd send the shuttles across first...

 

[Myasishchev]

...Of course, GO24 could also read something like "A starship commander is allowed to bluff his or her way through a threatening situation by claiming that he or she will use deadly force at the expiration of a specified time period; the choice of type of deadly force is at the commander's professional discretion. In no case is the commander allowed to proceed with the use of deadly force at the conclusion of the bluffing period, unless regulations otherwise pertaining to the use of deadly force apply." or words to that effect.

Timo Saloniemi

What's the deal with Garth, then?

 

[Timo]

What about him? He wanted to sterilize a planet, apparently - and that was grounds for his crew retiring him.

This would actually suggest that Scotty's actions in executing GO24 were somehow fundamentally different, now wouldn't it? His crew didn't drag him off in irons...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

My understanding was that he had the authority, but was not using it reasonably, and hence had to removed, perhaps by doctor's recommendation against fitness. Been a while since I've seen Whom Gods Destroy, although by coincidence actually on the list to rewatch soon.

In general, I would strongly doubt that even the Federation has a stated policy of not retaliating in kind against civilian populations. Kind of an open invitation for the Klingons, Romulans, and whoever else to blow up Earth and the rest and laugh at the impotent rage of the survivors.

 

[JuanBolio]

While it could be a bluff, I tend to think not. With the kinds of galaxy-ending threats starship commanders routinely ran up against, not to mention the kind of war they were likely to face with the Klingons, it would seem prudent to allow them to glass a planet if and when it was necessary.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm sure the Terran Empire did that on a regular basis, but not the peace loving Federation.

 

[JuanBolio]

^ I'm sure the Terran Empire did that on a regular basis, but not the peace loving Federation.

I don't think the Federation DID it very often if at all, but I expect they would keep the option open. There are instances where wiping out one world could save hundreds more. Just because the Federation values life and peace doesn't mean they don't know how to fight wars and end life, or aren't willing to do so if needed.

 

[Myasishchev]

Indeed. We (Americans) have only ever done it twice to a city (uh, maybe five times if you count Dresden, Tokyo and Pyongyang -_- ), despite motive, means, opportunity and even justification to do it otherwise. I mean, I despise MacArthur more than any other Allied leader in World War 2 who wasn't Russian, even more than Neville Chamberlain or that dumbass Gamelin, but once we (almost entirely he) got us into a war with the PRC, I can see strong reasons to carry that war against the Chinese mainland.

At any rate, we surely didn't do it for the lulz, and neither would the Federation, but they would be insane to foreclose the option prematurely. At best I think they would adhere to a no-first-strike policy (which the U.S. never did iirc, at least not without qualification), but GO24 seems to undermine that.

That said, I do strongly suspect that GO24 was implemented to permit tactical commanders discretion to use massive retaliatory force against the Klingons without having to wait days or weeks for authorization from sector admirals or, worse, the Federation President or Council (who might even be dead already in the event of a Klingon first-strike).

I am not persuaded that the intent was to permit individual commanders to launch preemptive antimatter bombardments of planets that present little to no threat to the UFP, like Eminiar or whatever the planet was that Garth tried to blow up. I think Kirk would've caught hell if Eminiar had wound up with a few billion collaterally damaged corpses over a few hostages. I do agree with Timo that he probably was bluffing, because the alternative is he's a maniac. But I think he probably technically had the authority to order the destruction of a planet.

If GO24 persisted into the 24th century, I'd bet also that it was modified to remove the capacity of starship captains like Garth and Kirk to use WMDs on civilian populations, probably placing the discretion higher up the chain of command and with more responsible decisionmakers...

Like Nechayev.

Oh shit, we're all dead.

 

[JuanBolio]

Oh, I agree that Eminiar VII was a total bluff, and Starfleet would never have sanctioned glassing the planet under those circumstances. But given the distances and communications lag times faced by starships I definitely think GO24 was a viable option, particularly against the Klingons should that cold war ever have gone hot, or against any newly discovered hostile, very dangerous race or entity waiting to explode off its planet and terrorize across the galaxy when a curious starship kicks over its little anthill.

To paraphrase the movie Contact - There are a thousand reasons we can think of to keep GO24 open as an option to all starship commanders, but mostly its for the reasons we can't think of.

 

[Timo]

I have nothing against the idea that one of the missions of UFP Starfleet is to glass enemy worlds. My only objection is to the idea that GO24 would be a mechanism by which the starship skipper him- or herself can take the authority to initiate such a mission.

Kirk should be tasked with glassing planets, terminating species, and undoing unwanted universes. He should not have the authority to take such action on his own discretion, though. It's pretty difficult to imagine a situation where waiting for a week would mean the end of the Federation: if Kirk encountered a major threat that far away from his home base, then the Federation would probably just benefit from the unleashing of this threat, as it would first wipe out the hostile empires beyond UFP borders...

I wonder if this ain't one of the "psych tests" that undid Captain Merrick... The testee is given the opportunity to use his powers to do something that serves the greater good but does local harm - and in order to get a passing grade, he has to stop and remember that the greater good, while all good and well, is not necessary, and can thus be left undone for the time being.

Glassing Eminiar would have saved the lives of Kirk's crew. But it would have harmed the Federation in the process, as enemies everywhere would see that the UFP was willing to kill billions to selfishly protect hundreds. Not much of a deterrent, because every enemy worth the name would possess the same means of killing - but an incitement instead, because the enemies now would consider the UFP a true threat, a mad dog to be put down.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill by David Mack establishes that an amendment to the Federation Charter explicitly bans the glassing of inhabited worlds, abolishing General Order 24.

 

[JuanBolio]

I have nothing against the idea that one of the missions of UFP Starfleet is to glass enemy worlds. My only objection is to the idea that GO24 would be a mechanism by which the starship skipper him- or herself can take the authority to initiate such a mission.

Kirk should be tasked with glassing planets, terminating species, and undoing unwanted universes. He should not have the authority to take such action on his own discretion, though. It's pretty difficult to imagine a situation where waiting for a week would mean the end of the Federation: if Kirk encountered a major threat that far away from his home base, then the Federation would probably just benefit from the unleashing of this threat, as it would first wipe out the hostile empires beyond UFP borders...

I wonder if this ain't one of the "psych tests" that undid Captain Merrick... The testee is given the opportunity to use his powers to do something that serves the greater good but does local harm - and in order to get a passing grade, he has to stop and remember that the greater good, while all good and well, is not necessary, and can thus be left undone for the time being.

Glassing Eminiar would have saved the lives of Kirk's crew. But it would have harmed the Federation in the process, as enemies everywhere would see that the UFP was willing to kill billions to selfishly protect hundreds. Not much of a deterrent, because every enemy worth the name would possess the same means of killing - but an incitement instead, because the enemies now would consider the UFP a true threat, a mad dog to be put down.

Timo Saloniemi

I disagree. With all the god-like aliens and invasive organisms the Enterprise alone encountered, I can EASILY think of situations in which a starship captain might have to make a genocidal decision now, as opposed to waiting hours, days, or even weeks to get word from Starfleet.

...and as for Eminiar VII, I think it was a bluff. Kirk wouldn't have done it - the situation didn't call for it. But the order, I think, is real.

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill by David Mack establishes that an amendment to the Federation Charter explicitly bans the glassing of inhabited worlds, abolishing General Order 24.

Unwise.

 

[Myasishchev]

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill by David Mack establishes that an amendment to the Federation Charter explicitly bans the glassing of inhabited worlds, abolishing General Order 24.

Interestingly, that would've been after the Dominion War.

 

[Mysterion]

As Kirk points out in TWoK, it's a test of character.

There isn't suppossed to be a single "right answer" or "solution" to the problem. The point of the exercise is to see how the student handles a situation of extreme stress. It's a test of leadership qualities, management skill, and imagination. Unless you cheat and rig the test you will get your ship blown out from under you, that much is pre-determined.

The Kobayashi Maru test isn't about where you end up, it's about how you get there and what you do along the way.
.

 

[lilsmartass]

Perhaps, but any cadet that chooses that option may be judged by Starfleet as excessively cautious, unwilling to take risks, and therefore unsuitable for command.

But is inaction in order to prevent drawing the entire Federation into a massive interstellar war excessively cautious?

By ordering his ship across the border to aid the civilian ship the cadet will single-handedly trigger an immensely costly conflict, and is committing Starfleet and 150 Federation members to a war with a formidable alien power.

Is that unwilling to take risks? Or simply looking at the bigger picture?

I agree with that actually. Surely those who go rushing into the neutral zone regardless of consequences are the people who are more likely to vilate the prime directive because they want to 'help.'

It would show greater strength of character to make the 'right' choice of not giving aid. The needs of the many afterall...

 

[Lindley]

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill by David Mack establishes that an amendment to the Federation Charter explicitly bans the glassing of inhabited worlds, abolishing General Order 24.

And the novel Vanguard: Reap The Whirlwind shows General Order 24 *has* been executed at least once.