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Continuity porn....

Which do you prefer?

  • Roads less traveled to strange new places.

    Votes: 18 60.0%
  • Bring on the porn! I never get enough.

    Votes: 12 40.0%

  • Total voters
    30
I wasn't comparing Avatar to Star Trek.

I am.

"Realism" is in the eye of the beholder. What you're calling realism is "what seems likely to me."

Neither Trek nor Avatar nor Blade Runner nor most sf seem likely to me. That has no direct bearing on how "realistic" they appear or may have appeared at one time.
 
Novelty - something new. "Continuity porn" - the overindulgence of trying to tie everything together.

I definitely like novelty. Who doesn't? It's what makes the content fresh and interesting. However, when you're operating in an established "universe" of many aspects (species, individuals, places, objects), it is good to tie things together when it makes sense for the story.

So yes, I'd agree that in some of the later Star Trek series, the writers periodically appeared to overdo the continuity aspect. It's one thing to be careful about violating precedents and established canon, but another to use conveniently available material when new material could be crafted to fit the context.
 
Well, novel story-telling is not the same as "exploring strange new worlds." As developed to this point, Trek is far too outdated conceptually to effectively do the latter. It would need to be built back up from the ground up.
 
Well, novel story-telling is not the same as "exploring strange new worlds." As developed to this point, Trek is far too outdated conceptually to effectively do the latter. It would need to be built back up from the ground up.
Dennis, you're quite fond of saying this, over and over again. I've seen you say it in many threads. You state like a fact while it is no such thing.

But, please, tell us why TOS' concept is so outdated. We'd really like to know.
 
I'm certainly not going to speak for Dennis, but my opinion is that Trek's basic concept is neck-deep in idiocy like aliens from different worlds being able to interbreed, and very 19th century notions of humans being "special" -- a very "homo sapiens only club" mentality with some token (meaning a dash of makeup) aliens throw in for color (if you'll pardon the phrase). There' never been much "strange" or "new" to the worlds they explore. The aliens are inevitably like us enough so that we can tell soap-operaish stories and engage in junior-grade political polemics.
 
I'm certainly not going to speak for Dennis, but my opinion is that Trek's basic concept is neck-deep in idiocy like aliens from different worlds being able to interbreed, and very 19th century notions of humans being "special" -- a very "homo sapiens only club" mentality with some token (meaning a dash of makeup) aliens throw in for color (if you'll pardon the phrase). There' never been much "strange" or "new" to the worlds they explore. The aliens are inevitably like us enough so that we can tell soap-operaish stories and engage in junior-grade political polemics.
But that isn't Star Trek's basic concept. Those are elements of its execution within the limits of the 1960s imposed on the show. If its essential concept were developed today it would look quite different.

The basic concept is man in space encountering new life. What comes next is how you choose to execute that. Seen in this light I certainly don't see how the concept is outdated.

What's changed isn't that the concept is outdated or has been outgrown. It most certainly hasn't. What's changed is society's perspective.

Star Trek's idea was that we can solve our problems and go out into the universe on our terms and ready to meet new life. The idea was that the future was ours to fashion. But my sense is that society in general doesn't really look to the future anymore. Society doesn't believe in the future--indeed I think many people today are actually afraid of the future. And so they look inward and to the past.

Star Trek depicted a future that, in its day, many people wanted to be part of. Today I see not even a generalized idea of a future that anyone wants to be part of.

Star Trek was founded on basic optimism. Today most of society is anything but optimistic. In a greater sense optimism has been made outdated.
 
I agree with you, Warped9, that the concept of Star Trek is certainly not outdated, but that the choice of execution taken back then has become obsolete. It started getting rather stale in TNG, was somewhat improved upon with DS9 (although it suffered from too many soap-opera toned episodes), but stalled with Voyager. Enterprise tried to recapture too much of what came before and ultimately failed.

Look at "Babylon 5". Now that was a show which explored the depths of alien races far more than Star Trek ever did. Humanoids still dominated but didn't ultimately rule. And although it did become immersed in traditional human issues/conflicts, there was some straying outside the box. This is what DS9 should have been like.

Anyway, as far as society's perspective goes, I think it's hard to place any long term judgment right now. Our economies have been shaken mercilessly, casting out many into the ranks of the unemployed (I'm one of them). We have seen our leaders of finance really screw things up, from touting that "business can take care of itself", to the scandalous self-serving activities that took place between banks and trading institutions during the housing market boom. It's hard to be optimistic. We're in a MAJOR mess right now. The US government is corrupt (key people have said it numerous times) and will not change fast enough in the short run. Our national budget is deep in the red. The ambition of going back to the moon and planning for a lunar colony (because there's the essential ingredient of H2O there) has been dashed. Essential resources are starting to run thin. Our climate is changing for the worse and we're not sure if this is going to be temporary or if we can influence it by cutting back on emissions.

Where are we going? The future does not look so very bright right now. So of course, optimism is not in fashion. You look like a naive schoolboy if you speak with doe eyed optimism. And maybe that's a good thing. We need to feel the pain of our situation, so that it may inspire change. It needs to become a mantra, the mindset to rebuild and start anew. But it's very hard to do that when people are struggling to make ends meet. When the now unobtainable opulence of the past is still fresh in mind. Our schools are seriously lacking good leadership and teaching talent, not to mention essential social workers/therapists for struggling children. Bad parenting is the norm these days and we're churning out people who worsen society and burden our prisons. OK, enough said, I'm getting myself sick. :(

I grew up with STTOS. I had high hopes that I'd one day see our society marching strongly in that direction. But I've come to realize that it's pure fantasy. We are still the beast, and have a long way to go before we can become truly civilized. Benevolent, intelligent, compassionate, and wise... so that we may one day return to our ambitions for the stars.
 
A friend of mine wrote a very good and insightful article about this very thing. Star Trek represented the future or at least a future for a generation. Star Trek doesn't represent such a thing anymore, certainly not to many people born after that era.

The older generation could point to winning WW2 and man landing on the moon as but two examples of moving forward and accomplishing great things. Apollo 11 was an ideal exclamation point to Star Trek. But today instead of signs of moving forward we're surrounded, as you cite, by signs of things falling apart. And in terms of space science and exploration we have the horrifying loss of two shuttle orbiters.

It's rather easy to understand a general cynicism about any sort of positive future.
 
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