Continuity Nazis: Your own personal canon.

[Thrall]

She's an anti-hero, like Wolverine, from the perspective of someone who was much more consciously a villain in the past and still prefers some of their methods.

Wolverine is no anti-hero. The only time he's ever worked for the bad guys was when he was under their control. He's kills bad guys but then so does James Bond, Indiana Jones, Rambo, Ahnold and John Mclaine.

Emma is evil. She takes pleasure in causing pain, anguish, and manipulating people. Fitting for a serial rapist. She was just crafty enough and picked the winning side. There is no moral ambiguity there. She doesn't believe in what Xavier believes in. She thinks mutants are superior to humans, but unlike Magneto she's willing to wait on inheriting the Earth. It's why she's always spewing out that elitist crap. She's a disgusting waste of a person and Marvel needs to quit pretending she's a good guy.

 

[CaptainCanada]

She's certainly vindictive, but she isn't evil; she stopped being a villain after her students were killed (the first time), and opened a new school with Xavier's support, including admitting human students toward the end. Like I said, she often favours more expedient methods then others on the team, but she isn't a villain.

 

[Gojirob]

I can't believe no one has retconned Norman's kids with Gwen yet!

I did! you people just ignore me

Wait, that might have been in the other Spider - Man thread.

I don't mind JMS as badly as many people do.

I hated Ezekial and the Others so badly. I think that's where Spider - Man really dropped off.

See, I think the whole Ezekiel/Totem thing could have been used to achieve OMD/BND w/o Mephisto. Ezekiel appears and tells Peter his life is, natch, one big web. He hates how the web has weaved, so E tells him to pull it apart and spin a new one. Two problems : One, once he does this, the mystic stuff will leave his life forever (heh) and Two, not being all trans-cosmic, Peter has no idea how the new web will look or how it will be structured. His efforts to save May and undo the unmasking have most of the consequences of Brand New Day, but without the hero preening before the devil himself, and leaving an in-story chance that he and MJ will eventually get back together. An unmanned Predator drone then finds an unshaven Joe Quesada, and mistakes him for an image in its data banks.

Wackiness ensues.

"Duhhhhh--Pete is that friend who drives everyone crazy, cause he's so undependable. Ah-huck, ah-huh."

BTW, do you think the other demons mocked on Mephisto when he got back from OMD?

Demon : Master, you have triumphed! Spider-Man's heroic soul is yours.

M : Uhm, No. Didn't quite get his soul. Really, its a funny story...

D : Then, you have the soul of his beloved Mary Jane? Another love he couldn't save, what torture!

M : Well, No. But I did make several whispered side-deals with her, and...

D : Then the innocent Aunt May is ours?

M : Nottt realllly. Her being alive was one of the big terms.

D : Ahhh, but you replaced May Parker with one of us, right?

M :Looking back, that might have been an idea, but again, No.

D : Jameson? Robbie? Flash Thompson? Debra FREAKING Whitman?

M : No on those too.

D : What did you get out of this?

M : My ancient enemy above us...

D : You mean God.

M : My sworn foe in the struggles for men's tender souls...

D : ....in other words, God.

M : The one whose light I give meaning by my shadow...

D : You can say God, you know. We're already in Hell.

M : He who cast me out...

D : You're the devil, so that would be.....GOD!!! What are you afraid of, blasphemy? Too late.

M : I have grievously wounded him by undoing the union between the Young Parkers--and restoring Harry, and introducing a bunch of weirdos no one's ever heard of, and making Peter an idiot slacker...

D : Are they eternally tormented by the memory of what they lost?

M : Some smallest part of them remembers.

D : That's...not quite eternal torment.

M : Wait til all the oblique comments about the past timeline are made! It will be HELL!!

(Demon stalks off, points to a figure on a larger throne behind Mephisto)

D : Quesada - YOU'RE JUST EVIL!!!!

 

[A beaker full of death]

Wolverine is no anti-hero. The only time he's ever worked for the bad guys was when he was under their control. He's kills bad guys but then so does James Bond, Indiana Jones, Rambo, Ahnold and John Mclaine.

Of course Wolverine is an anti-hero. So is Rambo. An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

 

[Thrall]

She's certainly vindictive, but she isn't evil; she stopped being a villain after her students were killed (the first time), and opened a new school with Xavier's support, including admitting human students toward the end. Like I said, she often favours more expedient methods then others on the team, but she isn't a villain.

No she's evil. Kitty Pride totally called it right. She enjoys mind-raping people and using people and killing people and is full of scorn and contempt for anyone who isn't "one of the chosen". None of that has ever changed. Just because someone isn't a villain anymore doesn't make them any less evil. She's a total sociopath in every way. She just happens to love kids.

Of course Wolverine is an anti-hero. So is Rambo. An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

How is killing commies for America bad? How is killing super-villains who have it coming bad?

 

[A beaker full of death]

Of course Wolverine is an anti-hero. So is Rambo. An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

How is killing commies for America bad? How is killing super-villains who have it coming bad?

wow. Let's try that again.

An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

 

[Thrall]

Of course Wolverine is an anti-hero. So is Rambo. An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

How is killing commies for America bad? How is killing super-villains who have it coming bad?

wow. Let's try that again.

An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

No, I understood you the first time. So you think all hero's must act like Superman and never kill and rescue kittens out of tree's? What a boring vision.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I can't believe no one has retconned Norman's kids with Gwen yet!

I did! you people just ignore me

Wait, that might have been in the other Spider - Man thread.

I don't mind JMS as badly as many people do.

I hated Ezekial and the Others so badly. I think that's where Spider - Man really dropped off.

See, I think the whole Ezekiel/Totem thing could have been used to achieve OMD/BND w/o Mephisto. Ezekiel appears and tells Peter his life is, natch, one big web. He hates how the web has weaved, so E tells him to pull it apart and spin a new one. Two problems : One, once he does this, the mystic stuff will leave his life forever (heh) and Two, not being all trans-cosmic, Peter has no idea how the new web will look or how it will be structured. His efforts to save May and undo the unmasking have most of the consequences of Brand New Day, but without the hero preening before the devil himself, and leaving an in-story chance that he and MJ will eventually get back together. An unmanned Predator drone then finds an unshaven Joe Quesada, and mistakes him for an image in its data banks.

Wackiness ensues.

"Duhhhhh--Pete is that friend who drives everyone crazy, cause he's so undependable. Ah-huck, ah-huh."

BTW, do you think the other demons mocked on Mephisto when he got back from OMD?

Demon : Master, you have triumphed! Spider-Man's heroic soul is yours.

M : Uhm, No. Didn't quite get his soul. Really, its a funny story...

D : Then, you have the soul of his beloved Mary Jane? Another love he couldn't save, what torture!

M : Well, No. But I did make several whispered side-deals with her, and...

D : Then the innocent Aunt May is ours?

M : Nottt realllly. Her being alive was one of the big terms.

D : Ahhh, but you replaced May Parker with one of us, right?

M :Looking back, that might have been an idea, but again, No.

D : Jameson? Robbie? Flash Thompson? Debra FREAKING Whitman?

M : No on those too.

D : What did you get out of this?

M : My ancient enemy above us...

D : You mean God.

M : My sworn foe in the struggles for men's tender souls...

D : ....in other words, God.

M : The one whose light I give meaning by my shadow...

D : You can say God, you know. We're already in Hell.

M : He who cast me out...

D : You're the devil, so that would be.....GOD!!! What are you afraid of, blasphemy? Too late.

M : I have grievously wounded him by undoing the union between the Young Parkers--and restoring Harry, and introducing a bunch of weirdos no one's ever heard of, and making Peter an idiot slacker...

D : Are they eternally tormented by the memory of what they lost?

M : Some smallest part of them remembers.

D : That's...not quite eternal torment.

M : Wait til all the oblique comments about the past timeline are made! It will be HELL!!

(Demon stalks off, points to a figure on a larger throne behind Mephisto)

D : Quesada - YOU'RE JUST EVIL!!!!

You have some excellent points there Gojirob...I think Ezekial would be better IF he had more of a role in Parker's life. Kind of like Madam Web was in the Cartoon.

 

[A beaker full of death]

How is killing commies for America bad? How is killing super-villains who have it coming bad?

wow. Let's try that again.

An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."

No, I understood you the first time. So you think all hero's must act like Superman and never kill and rescue kittens out of tree's? What a boring vision.

The concepts of the hero and the antihero are literary constructs. They are not opposites. You don't seem to be grasping the concept. I refer you to Leslie Erickson's Ph.D. dissertation, entitled The search for self: Everyday heroes and an integral re-visioning of the heroic journey in postmodern literature and popular culture, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, 2004. It sheds some light on the current popularity of Wolverine and the degradation in the depiction of Superman's character over the past 20 years.

 

[Hermiod]

Emma is evil. She takes pleasure in causing pain, anguish, and manipulating people. Fitting for a serial rapist. She was just crafty enough and picked the winning side. There is no moral ambiguity there. She doesn't believe in what Xavier believes in. She thinks mutants are superior to humans, but unlike Magneto she's willing to wait on inheriting the Earth. It's why she's always spewing out that elitist crap. She's a disgusting waste of a person and Marvel needs to quit pretending she's a good guy.

For the most part I agree with you, but, I believe she does love Scott and she was she did make it very clear to Bishop that under no circumstances would the X-Men join the Civil War on the pro-Registration side as she believed that registration goes against all the X-Men stand for.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Emma is evil. She takes pleasure in causing pain, anguish, and manipulating people. Fitting for a serial rapist. She was just crafty enough and picked the winning side. There is no moral ambiguity there. She doesn't believe in what Xavier believes in. She thinks mutants are superior to humans, but unlike Magneto she's willing to wait on inheriting the Earth. It's why she's always spewing out that elitist crap. She's a disgusting waste of a person and Marvel needs to quit pretending she's a good guy.

There is a complexity surrounding Emma that I think Whedon did a fairly decent job exploiting.

 

[RJDiogenes]

The concepts of the hero and the antihero are literary constructs. They are not opposites. You don't seem to be grasping the concept. I refer you to Leslie Erickson's Ph.D. dissertation, entitled The search for self: Everyday heroes and an integral re-visioning of the heroic journey in postmodern literature and popular culture, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, 2004. It sheds some light on the current popularity of Wolverine and the degradation in the depiction of Superman's character over the past 20 years.

The degradation of pretty much all characters....

 

[CaptainCanada]

She's certainly vindictive, but she isn't evil; she stopped being a villain after her students were killed (the first time), and opened a new school with Xavier's support, including admitting human students toward the end. Like I said, she often favours more expedient methods then others on the team, but she isn't a villain.

No she's evil. Kitty Pride totally called it right. She enjoys mind-raping people and using people and killing people and is full of scorn and contempt for anyone who isn't "one of the chosen". None of that has ever changed. Just because someone isn't a villain anymore doesn't make them any less evil. She's a total sociopath in every way. She just happens to love kids.

You cite Whedon's run, when Whedon himself wrote her as a hero.

 

[The Old Mixer]

wow. Let's try that again.

No, I understood you the first time. So you think all hero's must act like Superman and never kill and rescue kittens out of tree's? What a boring vision.

The concepts of the hero and the antihero are literary constructs. They are not opposites. You don't seem to be grasping the concept. I refer you to Leslie Erickson's Ph.D. dissertation, entitled The search for self: Everyday heroes and an integral re-visioning of the heroic journey in postmodern literature and popular culture, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, 2004. It sheds some light on the current popularity of Wolverine and the degradation in the depiction of Superman's character over the past 20 years.

Haven't read the book, but I have to back up beaker here. Wolverine was the very definition of a comic book anti-hero in the '70s and early '80s, and this was widely recognized at the time. That he became so popular and emulated that he started looking more like the norm is another story....

 

[darkwing_duck1]

The concepts of the hero and the antihero are literary constructs. They are not opposites. You don't seem to be grasping the concept. I refer you to Leslie Erickson's Ph.D. dissertation, entitled The search for self: Everyday heroes and an integral re-visioning of the heroic journey in postmodern literature and popular culture, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, 2004. It sheds some light on the current popularity of Wolverine and the degradation in the depiction of Superman's character over the past 20 years.

The degradation of pretty much all characters....

I think that the rise of the anti-hero in comics is better illustrated by the "reformatting" of the Punisher from psychotic freak to extreme seeker of justice.

 

[CaptainCanada]

This isn't just a comics phenomenon; all entertainment media have seen increased prominence of anti-heroes (in great part due to the relaxation of censorship and S&P that allows writers more latitude in what they can depict).

 

[RJDiogenes]

I think that the rise of the anti-hero in comics is better illustrated by the "reformatting" of the Punisher from psychotic freak to extreme seeker of justice.

You have no idea how much that pisses me off. I will never buy any comic starring Punisher.

This isn't just a comics phenomenon; all entertainment media have seen increased prominence of anti-heroes (in great part due to the relaxation of censorship and S&P that allows writers more latitude in what they can depict).

I agree that it permeates all levels of the arts; I don't necessarily think that it has anything to do with censorship, though. It's a social trend that began in the Reagan Era when it became cool to be violent and insensitive, and Human feelings became synonymous with weakness; it's been on a downhill track since then.

A few months ago, I read a book called Superfolks, which came out in the 70s and is considered the precursor to postmodern superhero deconstructionism (e.g. Watchmen). The foreward is written by Grant Morrison, who talks about this and says, in part:

Back in the day when comic book heroes were mostly still innocent of the ravages of time and cynicism, these fallen, fallible men and women of clay must have seemed monstrous parodies. Now they'd fit right in with the locals at any comic book universe. These days no one would be able to know how to tell the joke from the real thing.

And that about sums it up this Dark Age: It's all self-parody, but nobody gets the joke.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Oh, and lest I give the wrong impression, that book is highly recommended. It's very 70s. If anybody remembers the Weird Heroes books, it will give you pretty much that same feeling.

 

[theenglish]

This isn't just a comics phenomenon; all entertainment media have seen increased prominence of anti-heroes (in great part due to the relaxation of censorship and S&P that allows writers more latitude in what they can depict).

I think that this wikipedia article is pretty straightforward in its description of the anit-hero and the concepts origins as well as its place in comics.

With regard to the thread topic, I believe that only the first fifteen minutes of The Cage are canonical and all Star Trek that follows/(predates?) deserves to be wiped from existence and destroyed my childhood memories of the show.

 

[Hermiod]

^So, chronologically, only Enterprise and the first 15 minutes of The Cage count ?