Contemporary sci-fi shows: The end of the future

[Greylock Crescent]

And my point that if the SW series is a huge hit that it might lead some other space opera shows to get a greenlight still stands.

But if it flops, it could have a terrible chilling effect - even Star Wars can't make it on TV! What hope does anything else have?

And yes, it can flop on TV. The prequels were a great example of stories that play into the visual/visceral strength of movies. The fact that it had some terrible characters and stupid, inert plotting didn't matter because they were movies. But on TV, it would matter. Maybe we'll luck out and Lucas won't try to write anything. Or cast any of the characters.

The Star Wars brand on a high-profile network will get people to tune into the premiere. And that's all it will get. If it sucks, people will leave. Star Wars is not some kind of sacred totem.

If the Clone Wars series is any indication, then there's a good chance that the live-action series will successfully be about characters -- good characters -- and strong thematic stories.

I think the collaborative nature of producing television shows forces Lucas to concede much of his control to others, allowing for a better overall product that the Prequels -- which were driven, almost entirely, by Lucas.

Then again, the Young Indy Chronicles were hardly a resounding success, so ...

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

But if it flops, it could have a terrible chilling effect - even Star Wars can't make it on TV! What hope does anything else have?

True. Nothing is certain. But trends come and go, pendulums swing, and genres go in and out of favor, so I wouldn't write anything off for the long-term.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If the Clone Wars series is any indication, then there's a good chance that the live-action series will successfully be about characters -- good characters -- and strong thematic stories.

I tried watching Clone Wars, but yeesh, I just couldn't get into it. I hope the live-action show will be more inherently interesting than that. The first episode (basically one long battle sequence starring Yoda) is exactly what they cannot afford to do, if they want to grab an audience beyond just the devoted fanbase.

 

[Kegg]

If the Clone Wars series is any indication, then there's a good chance that the live-action series will successfully be about characters -- good characters -- and strong thematic stories.

I tried watching Clone Wars, but yeesh, I just couldn't get into it.

Yeah, I think the series is mostly for two sets of people:

1. The under-ten set.
2. People who will watch anything with the Star Wars label.

And mostly category number one, obviously, and I'm more or less in the number two bracket. I do rather like it (it's eye candy more o' less), but I wouldn't defend it. There's not a lot to commend it character-wise either - some have argued it handles Anakin better than the prequel trilogy, and personally I like Ashoka Tano, but the character writing has all the depth and complexity of bubblegum cards - which for the sort of series this is I'm rather fine with, but not exactly a sterling example of character growth.

If there is anything positive to be learned from this example as regarding the live action TV, it's that George Lucas keeps a relatively light leash on the series - for better or ill it's mostly the brainchild of David Filoni, who has fanboy tendencies not too dissimilar to Mike Sussman on ENT.

On the downside, Lucas does meddle more than a bit, and the probably ill-advised idea to turn the first arc into a feature film (and the definitely ill-advised idea to have a Truman Capote Hutt) have been attributed to him.

A few years ago when discussing the live action series TPTB promised a darker, grittier, Battlestar Galactica-type series (their example, not mine) and said they'd been scouting writing talent and the like. But hey, that was years ago, who knows what the idea for the project is now?

I'm sort of leery of that, if that's really the direction they're taking it. It could all too easily become a rather hamfisted attempt to be edgy and even in its cheapened state that's not something I'd like to see in this franchise.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

You guys might not have noticed, but the "speculative fiction" audience has shifted and "space" or "future-y" oriented subjects have lost ground.

You're right - I haven't noticed that. And the way to prove that it's a real phenomenon is, are you seeing it in print sci fi? Novels and short stories would not be driven by the same budgetary concerns that are driving TV sci fi into a subset of the police procedural, or the demand for visual spectacle that is driving movie sci fi into the brainless action mode.

Yes, I'm seeing it in print sci-fi.

Not counting the tie-in novels, of course. For all I know the Star Wars and Star Trek novel universes are chugging right along. I've never been a consumer of those so I don't know.

But I read a lot of anthologized print sci-fi and you can basically line up my library of that stuff in chronological order and "space" oriented material starts out dominating and becomes less and less prominent as the years advance. In recent years, Paul McAuley and Greg Bear basically keep the sub-genre going without a whole lot of competent help.

And that's within sci-fi itself. If you just read traditional sci-fi, that masks what actually is going on. I said "speculative fiction" for a reason: the tsunami of fantasy material swamping the entire genre space gets bigger every year, and sci-fi gets pushed into a smaller and smaller corner. Twilight-style "Legally Blonde Horror" consumes a lot of oxygen these days too. And you can walk into a Barnes and Noble and walk up to the hardcover new release section of Sci Fi / Fantasy and find that half of the non-fantasy titles aren't science fiction at all, but alternate history titles from authors like Stirling and Flint and Turtledove and freaking Gingrich, even.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Actually, Lucas is financing the Live Action Star Wars Series himself. So budget isn't a problem. He and Rick McCallum are producing it. Step 2, taken care of. All that's left, is finding a network. What network would pass up a Star Wars series that is guaranteed through the roof ratings every week they don't have to pay for? The only thing they would have to worry about is broadcasting rights contracts. Big difference when you have a show like nuV, or Heroes.

I don't think that the ratings for a Star Wars series are "guaranteed" at all...Clone Wars isn't doing all that well, after all, and IT'S a Star Wars series that has primary characters in it. This new show by definition of it's timeframe will be about new characters that the audience will have to be convinced to give a frak about. That may be a harder sell than they think.

 

[Hyperspace05]

When it comes to budgetary issues for Sci-Fi productions:

Babylon 5 - A major reason it was able to be produced as cheaply (relatively speaking again), was that it was planned so well in advance. The F/X teams and prop/set makers knew several episodes in advance what needed to be done. In season 1 they also shot the season quite a bit out of order to better handle and spread the cost for the "big" episodes. This ability to plan ahead is not fully taken advantage of in most shows.

As for the general expense of a SF show vs a 'regular' drama... You'd be surprised how expensive on-location shoots can be. I'd wager a high quality cop or courtroom drama would cost just as much as good looking SF show.

One interesting recent development is the pretty low-budget "Sanctuary" show. They do a LOT of virtual sets, and in the 2nd season they have actually gotten really good at it. I'm very curious how much their budget is now, because it really looks like quite a polished production these days, and it could be an interesting pattern for a space-opera or far future SF show to follow.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

One funny thing about budget: if they made a show about realistic settlement of the solar system, most of the "colony" sets could basically be shot in basements somewhere. Since that's what most colonies would probably look like. A cross between basements and quonset huts.

Only the space flight scenes themselves would have to be effects shots.

It would probably be even cheaper from a set design perspective than nuBSG. And the CGI would be cheaper, too, since you really wouldn't be generating massive space battle shots, but shots more along the lines of NASA promotional videos.

 

[RJDiogenes]

You guys might not have noticed, but the "speculative fiction" audience has shifted and "space" or "future-y" oriented subjects have lost ground.

You're right - I haven't noticed that. And the way to prove that it's a real phenomenon is, are you seeing it in print sci fi? Novels and short stories would not be driven by the same budgetary concerns that are driving TV sci fi into a subset of the police procedural, or the demand for visual spectacle that is driving movie sci fi into the brainless action mode.

Sure, if you read Analog or writers like Jack McDevitt who write for a literate audience, you can find good Space Opera and real Science Fiction-- and their sales are still declining every year. TV and movies are more and more overrun with the grungy dark-and-gritty fad-- every set has to look like a warehouse and uniforms have to be as dull and gray as cigarette ash and the characters have to act like brain-damaged teenagers. It's not budgetary concerns; it's what the current audience is looking for.

 

[Agent Richard07]

Personally, I like televised science fiction that's naturalistic. Science fiction that looks like it can exist and happen in the real world. That means real people as opposed to archetypes or cartoonish larger than life heroes, locations that don't look like sets and special effects that don't look too obvious. That doesn't mean no exotic creatures or alien worlds set in the distant future, far from it, it just means putting them into a context that doesn't make the end result come off as fake and amateurish. Oftentimes good televised science fiction will have to include darkness, grit and unsavoury characters who are irrational and crazy, but I wouldn't say those things are what I'm after specifically or that they're an absolute requirement.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Dark, naturalistic sci-fi, colorful space opera, and larger than life pulp sci-fantasy can all be enjoyable if they're well made. I'd like to see a mix of styles on the air rather than one style dominate.

 

[Agent Richard07]

^ I agree. I like a wide variety of styles too and wouldn't want to see just one dominate. I'm just addressing the naturalistic kind. It's probably my favorite because it puts you in a real "what if" scenario which I think is the basis of science fiction. Anything else is mostly just fun and entertainment. Although, if done well and with some cleverness, scifi of the fun and entertaining variety can leave you with some good insights and/or something to think about as well.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yeah, I think the series is mostly for two sets of people:

1. The under-ten set.
2. People who will watch anything with the Star Wars label.

They'll never get a mass audience with that approach. I hope they realize it - it would be a lot of fun to have a successful live-action Star Wars series on TV. But on TV, the usual strengths of the franchise - visual and visceral - are not going to be as apparent, and the things you do need on TV - strong characterization and plot - have not been in much evidence for decades.

some have argued it handles Anakin better than the prequel trilogy

What little I saw before bailing, I agree - he isn't an annoying putz. But just repairing the damage of the prequels isn't enough for me. They need to create an Anakin I'm interested in. Or another character, or characters. Not annoying me is not enough to make me watch a show.

Yes, I'm seeing it in print sci-fi.

Not counting the tie-in novels, of course. For all I know the Star Wars and Star Trek novel universes are chugging right along. I've never been a consumer of those so I don't know.

From what I know of print sci fi (and I'm mainly interested in catching up on old stuff, so I don't know much about the contemporary situation), media tie-ins dominate the market, so if those are space opera, then I guess that's where the demand for space opera in print has gone. But space opera has not vanished from bookstore shelves. The last time I poked around a Barnes & Noble, it was one Star Wars or Star Trek novel after another (plus of course plenty of vampires).

the tsunami of fantasy material swamping the entire genre space gets bigger every year

The bookstore shelves confirm that fantasy is as big, if not bigger, than sci-fi. But are those fandoms really interchangeable so that people jump ship from one to the other?

This new show by definition of it's timeframe will be about new characters that the audience will have to be convinced to give a frak about. That may be a harder sell than they think.

The Star Wars name will guarantee a big initial audience for the premiere. But if they can't provide a better storyline and characters than we've seen since the OT, the Neilsens will collapse in the second week.

 

[Kegg]

Yeah, I think the series is mostly for two sets of people:

1. The under-ten set.
2. People who will watch anything with the Star Wars label.

They'll never get a mass audience with that approach.

Well, you will for a kid's action-adventure cartoon. A live-action show will probably want to cast a wider net.

But just repairing the damage of the prequels isn't enough for me. They need to create an Anakin I'm interested in. Or another character, or characters. Not annoying me is not enough to make me watch a show.

Well, supposedly the live action series is set somewhere between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, so even if we do focus on the elder Skywalker, it'd be Vader. And Vader's still pretty fun.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Vader is a guy who stomps around in a black suit and shakes his fist a lot. He's not really a character - he's a good element to have, as a threat to Our Heroes, but his role is to be a backdrop of sorts to the main characters, something for them to play off of.

I'm more concerned that Our Heroes are going to be worth watching. Who are they? Till we see them, we won't know whether they're worth anything at all. Vader can't carry this show on his own.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I find your lack of faith disturbing

 

[Greylock Crescent]

This bickering is pointless.

 

[Australis]

I've been saying for years, we're living in the future.

Everything is so different now compared to 10-15 years ago, and will continue to change, and faster.

The grungy look is, for some reason, more believable than the bright & shiny look.

If you want good space opera, try Iain Banks Culture novels. As I often say, I'd rather live there than the Federation.

 

[Mistral]

I've been saying for years, we're living in the future.

Everything is so different now compared to 10-15 years ago, and will continue to change, and faster.

Spider Robinson, in The Time Traveler from Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, covered this concept perfectly.