Contact with the Borg

[Tiberius]

I'm saying that if the Borg really are made up of the collective wills of all the drones as one, then the way the Collective acts should be influenced by them rather than vice-versa. If most of the Borg were forcefully assimilated than that should show in the Collective not being a violent conqueror.

Why?

The Borg assimilate people to use their bodies and their knowledge, not their personalities. It would be quite easy for them to have some mechanism by which they can just take what they want without letting the consciences of the assimilatees get in the way of the next bad thing the Borg want to do.

It does keep acting like that, meaning the personalities and wills of the assimilated Borg have no part in the make-up of the Collective.

Exactly. This is why I don't get why you keep saying that they must play a part.

This either means the Borg are NOT a true Hive Mind made up of the combined wills of all the Drones, or the majority of Borg are the "Born Borg" who were never individuals.

My personal theory about the Borg mind is that it's just one mind, spread throughout all the drones just the same way that our minds are spread throughout all our brain cells. And this single mind is the mind of the Queen, the mind that controls the body we see.

 

[Anwar]

The Borg assimilate people to use their bodies and their knowledge, not their personalities.

Then that makes the Borg a virus/infestation, not a real Hive Mind.

Exactly. This is why I don't get why you keep saying that they must play a part.

Because an actual Collective would be made up of the minds of ALL the Borg, otherwise it isn't the real meaning of "Collective" OR "Hive Mind".

My personal theory about the Borg mind is that it's just one mind, spread throughout all the drones just the same way that our minds are spread throughout all our brain cells.

Then this goes against Seven's claim that all Borg are assimilated, which I'm okay with because there HAD to be Borg to create the Collective in the first place in order to begin assimilating other species.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Unless there is some kind of all-controlling directive/program that really runs the Borg

The Queen!

 

[Anwar]

I mean an all-controlling directive/program that the audience doesn't hate, .

Personally, I'd make the Borg like the Beast Planet from "Shadow Raiders" with the Unicomplex back in the Delta Quadrant being a mobile facility that is the main "Voice" of the Collective. It's a gigantic living space station that speaks in a voice that's even more modulated and deep than the other Collective voices, and pretty much gives orders to all Borg vessels.

So there, the Borg do have a "Leader" but it's a bigger-than-a-planet space station made up of trillions of drones.

 

[Tiberius]

I don't hate the Borg Queen.

And if you think of the Queen as the intelligence that controls the body we saw (and not the body itself), then that intelligence could be spread throughout every single drone. It's logical and fits in with everything that we have seen.

 

[Anwar]

I think folks would've okay with the Queen if (maybe):

- She was 100% mechanical, and clearly was the "programming" of the Collective in a physical body for communication purposes.
- She said "we" instead of "I".
- She didn't act like a person, but more like Locutus.

Personally, I'd rather the Borg Collective be like the MCP from Tron: A skull made out of binary code that spoke and gave orders to Borg ships. It's physical form would be the Unicomplex.

 

[Tiberius]

I think folks would've okay with the Queen if (maybe):

- She was 100% mechanical, and clearly was the "programming" of the Collective in a physical body for communication purposes.

WHy? In my proposed idea for the way the Borg are structured (all the drones are interconnected to form a mind, and it is this mind which controls the body of the queen), then all that is required for the body is that it is a body. It doesn't need to be completely mechanical.

- She said "we" instead of "I".

If the Queen works as I have suggested, then she (unlike the drones) would be a complete individual. There would be no issue with her saying "I" instead of "we".

- She didn't act like a person, but more like Locutus.

Personally, I'd rather the Borg Collective be like the MCP from Tron: A skull made out of binary code that spoke and gave orders to Borg ships. It's physical form would be the Unicomplex.[/QUOTE]

 

[Anwar]

Because folks don't like the idea of the Borg being controlled by an individual, and rather they were in control of themselves.

So I think my idea of the Collective being like the MCP or the Beast Planet is the...best of both worlds...

 

[Tiberius]

Because folks don't like the idea of the Borg being controlled by an individual, and rather they were in control of themselves.

So I think my idea of the Collective being like the MCP or the Beast Planet is the...best of both worlds...

I'm not saying the Borg are controlled by an indiovidual. I'm saying the Borg ARE an individual. Even Picard agrees with me.

Think of them as a single collective being. (At 9:19 into the episode.)

What my idea is that the drones we've seen function like brain cells do in our brains. By itself, a brain cell is not worth much, just as a single drone is.

When you connect our brain cells together, they become capable of communicatingn with each other and forming a person's mind. This mind is a single mind, despite being made up of millions of brain cells.

Likewise, when all the drones are connected together, they form a single mind too. This mind is the queen.

And the Queen can control a body, like we might control a puppet. You can destroy the body, but the mind remains, because the mind isn't inside it, it is spread throughout the entire Collective.

This solves many mysteries. It explains how the Queen could have survived the destruction of the cube in BoBW (while the body was destroyed, the mind controlling it was not, and it just needed to get a new puppet), and it explains the Queen's comment to Data in FC - "I am the Borg."

This view of the Borg fits in very well with just about every single thing we've ever seen them do.

 

[Anwar]

And yet the Queen is still a reviled character, you just can't win.

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, people are going to have different opinions, I can't change that. I'm just saying that with my model of how the Collective works, her existence isn't a problem.

 

[sonak]

Because folks don't like the idea of the Borg being controlled by an individual, and rather they were in control of themselves.

So I think my idea of the Collective being like the MCP or the Beast Planet is the...best of both worlds...

I'm not saying the Borg are controlled by an indiovidual. I'm saying the Borg ARE an individual. Even Picard agrees with me.

Think of them as a single collective being. (At 9:19 into the episode.)

What my idea is that the drones we've seen function like brain cells do in our brains. By itself, a brain cell is not worth much, just as a single drone is.

When you connect our brain cells together, they become capable of communicatingn with each other and forming a person's mind. This mind is a single mind, despite being made up of millions of brain cells.

Likewise, when all the drones are connected together, they form a single mind too. This mind is the queen.

And the Queen can control a body, like we might control a puppet. You can destroy the body, but the mind remains, because the mind isn't inside it, it is spread throughout the entire Collective.

This solves many mysteries. It explains how the Queen could have survived the destruction of the cube in BoBW (while the body was destroyed, the mind controlling it was not, and it just needed to get a new puppet), and it explains the Queen's comment to Data in FC - "I am the Borg."

This view of the Borg fits in very well with just about every single thing we've ever seen them do.

But what advantage would this give the Borg? Other than using the Borg Queen to try to seduce Data(which I don't think would work for a lot of other species considering her appearance) what would you need a physical representation of the collective for? You don't need it for negotiations as we see in "BOBW" before Locutus is created, and it seems to make them more vulnerable.

 

[Vanyel]

An actual physical Queen may only come into existence when needed. She is the physical manifestation of the Collective. A part of the Collective was sent to the past to assimilate Earth, A Queen may have been needed to bring order to chaos. Since a new Collective would have been made until it could reach the rest of the Borg. Then she could merge with that Collective and make it one again.

When Picard became Locutus, she was there, not physically, but because she is the Collective. After that Species 8472 and Unimatrix Zero necessitated the creation of a Queen again to help bring that order into a sharper focus and deal with the problems. Once dealt with the Collective may have decided to keep her to determine how a long time Drone was so quickly regaining its individuality. Which could explain her fascination with Seven. Now with the damage caused by Voyager a Queen may again be around until the damage repaired. Once repaired she'll go back into storage, or what ever they do to Queens when not needed, until needed.

One of several ideas I've had to explain a Queen.

 

[Tiberius]

Because folks don't like the idea of the Borg being controlled by an individual, and rather they were in control of themselves.

So I think my idea of the Collective being like the MCP or the Beast Planet is the...best of both worlds...

I'm not saying the Borg are controlled by an indiovidual. I'm saying the Borg ARE an individual. Even Picard agrees with me.

Think of them as a single collective being. (At 9:19 into the episode.)

What my idea is that the drones we've seen function like brain cells do in our brains. By itself, a brain cell is not worth much, just as a single drone is.

When you connect our brain cells together, they become capable of communicatingn with each other and forming a person's mind. This mind is a single mind, despite being made up of millions of brain cells.

Likewise, when all the drones are connected together, they form a single mind too. This mind is the queen.

And the Queen can control a body, like we might control a puppet. You can destroy the body, but the mind remains, because the mind isn't inside it, it is spread throughout the entire Collective.

This solves many mysteries. It explains how the Queen could have survived the destruction of the cube in BoBW (while the body was destroyed, the mind controlling it was not, and it just needed to get a new puppet), and it explains the Queen's comment to Data in FC - "I am the Borg."

This view of the Borg fits in very well with just about every single thing we've ever seen them do.

But what advantage would this give the Borg? Other than using the Borg Queen to try to seduce Data(which I don't think would work for a lot of other species considering her appearance) what would you need a physical representation of the collective for? You don't need it for negotiations as we see in "BOBW" before Locutus is created, and it seems to make them more vulnerable.

Sometimes the queen likes to walk amongst her subjects instead of being confined to the castle.

Honestly, I've always seen the Borg Queen as a spoiled brat. Look at how she double crossed the crew of Voyager in Scorpion. As soon as she got what she wanted, she turned on them. So i guess that sometimes she just likes to be there herself.

BTW, when Picard is facing the Collective in BoBW, I always figured it should have been the queen and the only reason they didn't use her was because they hadn't invented her yet. I wrote a novelisation of that scene with the Queen speaking to Picard instead of the Collective, and it works very well. Even better than what they did have, in some ways. You can have a read of it here.

 

[Tiberius]

An actual physical Queen may only come into existence when needed. She is the physical manifestation of the Collective. A part of the Collective was sent to the past to assimilate Earth, A Queen may have been needed to bring order to chaos. Since a new Collective would have been made until it could reach the rest of the Borg. Then she could merge with that Collective and make it one again.

When Picard became Locutus, she was there, not physically, but because she is the Collective. After that Species 8472 and Unimatrix Zero necessitated the creation of a Queen again to help bring that order into a sharper focus and deal with the problems. Once dealt with the Collective may have decided to keep her to determine how a long time Drone was so quickly regaining its individuality. Which could explain her fascination with Seven. Now with the damage caused by Voyager a Queen may again be around until the damage repaired. Once repaired she'll go back into storage, or what ever they do to Queens when not needed, until needed.

One of several ideas I've had to explain a Queen.

This is almost identical to my idea as well. The mind oif the queen is spread throughout the Collective, and it controls the body like a puppet.

 

[sonak]

I'm not saying the Borg are controlled by an indiovidual. I'm saying the Borg ARE an individual. Even Picard agrees with me.



What my idea is that the drones we've seen function like brain cells do in our brains. By itself, a brain cell is not worth much, just as a single drone is.

When you connect our brain cells together, they become capable of communicatingn with each other and forming a person's mind. This mind is a single mind, despite being made up of millions of brain cells.

Likewise, when all the drones are connected together, they form a single mind too. This mind is the queen.

And the Queen can control a body, like we might control a puppet. You can destroy the body, but the mind remains, because the mind isn't inside it, it is spread throughout the entire Collective.

This solves many mysteries. It explains how the Queen could have survived the destruction of the cube in BoBW (while the body was destroyed, the mind controlling it was not, and it just needed to get a new puppet), and it explains the Queen's comment to Data in FC - "I am the Borg."

This view of the Borg fits in very well with just about every single thing we've ever seen them do.

But what advantage would this give the Borg? Other than using the Borg Queen to try to seduce Data(which I don't think would work for a lot of other species considering her appearance) what would you need a physical representation of the collective for? You don't need it for negotiations as we see in "BOBW" before Locutus is created, and it seems to make them more vulnerable.

Sometimes the queen likes to walk amongst her subjects instead of being confined to the castle.

Honestly, I've always seen the Borg Queen as a spoiled brat. Look at how she double crossed the crew of Voyager in Scorpion. As soon as she got what she wanted, she turned on them. So i guess that sometimes she just likes to be there herself.

BTW, when Picard is facing the Collective in BoBW, I always figured it should have been the queen and the only reason they didn't use her was because they hadn't invented her yet. I wrote a novelisation of that scene with the Queen speaking to Picard instead of the Collective, and it works very well. Even better than what they did have, in some ways. You can have a read of it here.

I rather like the scene with Picard staring into the vast collective in "BOBW." It's one of Trek's coolest moments. I think the queen might undercut it.

I tried the link but it didn't work for me for somre reason.

 

[Timo]

Of course, the Queen of the Borg might be analogous to the Queens of the insect world - not a sovereign at all, but a prisoner and a slave, kept alive for a single specific purpose, and not being allowed to affect the affairs of the Collective much if at all. The Borg Queen isn't really shown leading or making decisions or giving commands, but merely voicing the intentions of the Collective or performing tasks specific to the independent humanoid thinking, such as interrogation, propaganda, bribery, blackmail.

A more interesting idea would be to treat the Queen as an alien living off the Collective - either an outside intruder suckling on the secretions of the Collective, or an inevitably emergent but unwelcome property of the Collective. The Collective either tolerates the intruder, or then is unable to get rid of it, or both. Who knows, perhaps there are other parasites living in the Collective, too - a Joker, a Bishop, a Lover, a Death?

Certainly the Queen currently is as poorly understood by our heroes as the entire Collective originally was. Seven remained oddly secretive about her, and about several other key concepts of being Borg, too. Out of a sense of loyalty? Or because being severed from the Collective wreaks havoc with one's memory and other mental faculties?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Actually, in Unimatrix Zero we do see the Queen actually giving orders. The big formless Collective voice orders something, and the Queen over-rules it. The scene makes it clear that she is the ruler of the Collective, and even if the big voice decides something she can make it do otherwise.

I would have just given the big Voice a face right from the beginning. A skull made out of binary data or something.

 

[Tiberius]

A more interesting idea would be to treat the Queen as an alien living off the Collective - either an outside intruder suckling on the secretions of the Collective, or an inevitably emergent but unwelcome property of the Collective. The Collective either tolerates the intruder, or then is unable to get rid of it, or both. Who knows, perhaps there are other parasites living in the Collective, too - a Joker, a Bishop, a Lover, a Death?

Possible, but a bit too far fetched for my tastes. I prefer Occam's Razor, and I think my idea answers the most while assuming the least.

Actually, in Unimatrix Zero we do see the Queen actually giving orders. The big formless Collective voice orders something, and the Queen over-rules it. The scene makes it clear that she is the ruler of the Collective, and even if the big voice decides something she can make it do otherwise.

This could be similar to how we Humans can override our instincts. Like how a person can choose to run into a burning building to save a loved one. The big formless Collective voice is the voice of instinct, like how our bodies automatically send antibodies to fight germs. The voice of the Queen is the conscious mind, able to act apart from instinct.

 

[Tiberius]

I tried the link but it didn't work for me for somre reason.

Ah, thanks, didn't realise the address was incorrect. I fixed the link, or you can click HERE.