Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Batmans

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Good to see a lot of people not liking the redesign of the animation in that later seasons of Batman: The Animated Series.

Batman Forever
I tried yesterday watching it and I couldn't get past 15 minutes. I thought people said this was better than Batman & Robin!

Batman & Robin
Good: Uma Thurman.
Bad: Everything else.

Batman Forever is less campy than Batman & Robin. However, I'd say it's still campy enough that you might as well go whole hog, which it didn't. It's neither one thing nor the other. Batman & Robin at least sinks so low that it bounces back up a bit into so-bad-it's-good territory.

I think at this point I think I'll have to be drunk, in good company for a round of MST3King, or both in order to watch Batman Forver.

Batman Beyond
PRO: The Return of the Joker. 'Nuff said.
CON: Weak rogues gallery.

I thought Spellbinder was interesting at least.

 

[Aragorn]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

I guess I should eventually have a go at this, too, so...

"Batman" (1966)
PRO: Introduced me to Batman and several members of his rogues gallery. Even if you hate this treatment of Batman, some of it was genuinely funny. And Julie Newmar was hot.
CON: Never mind the camp, a lot of the writing was just plain stupid. Has tainted Batman in a lot of people's minds forever.

Batman (1989)
PRO: Finally treating Batman as a serious character. Great Danny Elfman score.
CON: Prince soundtrack. A story that turns out to be ultimately pretty thin and lame upon repeat viewing after the thrill of the "dark knight finally being dark" wears out. Joker killing Bruce's parents.

Batman Returns (1992)
PRO: Personally my favorite of the previous "four-pack," with some really cool characterizations of Selina Kyle and Oswald Cobblepot within the confines of what this movie was trying to do.
CON: Extremely dark and demented even for Tim Burton, this movie was all about Burton and not about Batman. Hell, Batman was a secondary character and Bruce/Batman was in like 5 of the first 30 minutes. And while Catwoman and Penguin were cool within the storytelling of the movie, they were nothing like they should've been. Also, there's a rumor that Max Schreck was actually supposed to be Harvey Dent (Billy Dee Williams) and the zap with Catwoman at the end would've turned him into Two-Face for the third movie. If this is true, damn you! Damn you all to hell!

"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)
PRO: Lots of fun and diverse stories that delve deep into the Batman mythos and rogues gallery. While it still was a kids' weekday cartoon, it tried to take its subject matter seriously. Also, Mask of the Phantasm is better than the "four-pack" of movies from this time.
CON: When it was bad, it was horrible. The episodic nature of the show (were there ever two-parters?) held the storytelling back. I'm guessing there was also some studio interference.

Batman Forever (1995)
PRO: I liked it. Maybe I'm the only one. Not a fan of the color schemes or over-the-top action, but at least this time around Batman could actually fight. Nicole Kidman was probably at her hottest, too.
CON: Jim Carrey was playing Jim Carrey, not Riddler. And Tommy Lee Jones was just trying to out-ham Carrey. Over-the-top set design.

Batman & Robin (1997)
PRO: I liked George Clooney as Bruce Wayne, but judging by some of the things he said, I don't think he would've worked for a serious, darker movie.
CON: Arnold Schwarzenegger's acting. The two villains seemed to be in two different movies and not on the same page (ummm, Ivy, if Freeze ices the world, your plants will all die). The treatment of Bane. Everything that was wrong or merely acceptable in Forever was dialed up to the max and that's when it all went to pot. It may have been true to a period of Batman lore, but unfortunately that was the 60s show. Was actually physically painful to watch at the theater. Batman has a credit card? And ice skates?

"Birds of Prey" (2002)
PRO: Hot chicks in leather.
CON: It was terrible from start to finish. They basically changed Smallville's (which is a bad starting point to begin with considering how crappy that show is) name to Gotham City, replacing meteor freaks with metahumans. If Smallville is Date Movie, then Birds of Prey is Epic Movie.

Batman Begins (2005)
PRO: They finally got Batman right! Bruce Wayne/Batman is actually the star of a Batman movie.
CON: All those cop cars the tumbler crushed. If Batman really doesn't kill criminals, he sure as hell shouldn't drive like a homicidal maniac against police. Not a fan of the final superweapon, but it's acceptable when a movie is this good.

The Dark Knight (2008)
PRO: Holy crap! They took everyone's ideas of what a superhero movie and this sequel was supposed to be like and turned it on its head. Heath Ledger and Aaron Eckhart ruled the screen. And Jim Gordon is actually a fleshed-out character instead fo a glorified extra.
CON: Rachel Dawes was the weakest-written character for the second straight movie. And personally I like Katie Holmes better, even though Maggie Gyllenhaal is a better actress. The processed bat-voice. There were a few loud parts of the score that drowned out the dialog, especially at the end.

Batman: Gotham Knight (2008)
PRO: A really cool concept, to have different styles of storytelling to tell different storys about Batman.
CON: I didn't like any of the stories. They ranged from average to poor and were all pretty boring. And now this blind-buy is the worst Blu-Ray title I own, and considering that I have Talladega Nights (free with the PS3), that says a lot.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)
PRO: Lots of fun and diverse stories that delve deep into the Batman mythos and rogues gallery. While it still was a kids' weekday cartoon, it tried to take its subject matter seriously. Also, Mask of the Phantasm is better than the "four-pack" of movies from this time.
CON: When it was bad, it was horrible. The episodic nature of the show (were there ever two-parters?) held the storytelling back. I'm guessing there was also some studio interference.

There were quite a few two-parters, actually: "Two-Face," "The Cat and the Claw," "Feat of Clay," "Robin's Reckoning," "Heart of Steel," "Shadow of the Bat," and "The Demon's Quest." All of them happened within the first 65-episode block and prior to the retitling to The Adventures of Batman & Robin.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1966)
Pro: It was the only live action superhero show that has felt like a living, breathing comic book.
Con: Episodes became repetative, writing took a dip from comic art camp to outright silly.

Superfriends (1973)
Pro: Post season one episodes managed to be entertaining despite limits placed on it.
Con: Early episodes, the first season, are barely watchable thanks to Wendy, Marvin, wonderdog and utterly boring, politically correct storylines.

Batman (Filmation)
Pro: Most people forget it exists. But its on DVD for those who care. Also, got paychecks for West and Ward.
Con: Filmation and their damn obligatory cutesy li'l comic relief characters.

Batman (1989)
Pro: Cemented comic book hero movies as big budget "event movies" , redeemed the genre after Superman IV. Elfman's theme music was awesome. Nicholson owned, no matter what people say now.
Con: Young Joker killing Bruce's parents. Too much of an easy out. Film hasn't aged well in a few aspects, Prince's songs add to that.

Batman Returns (1992)
Pro: Balanced mutiple villains fairly well. Devito did well covered in make-up playing an unappreciated, repulsive character.
Con: Too many Burtonisms...the final act is a mess. Penguins blowing up Gotham? Kidnapping kids? Catwoman get shot all those times? Everyone focuses on Pfieffer's somewhat silly Catwoman performance. As much as I like Walken in the movie, was his role needed? Or did it need to be that big?

Batman The Animated Series
Pro: Great voice acting, retro style was very distinct. Batman is dark hero, but is definately a likable hero. Nice use of lesser known villains.
Con: The later seasons, really a sequel series IMHO, where the designs were changed for cost reasons, etc. Joker looked like shit. For better,o or worse (I lean towards worse) Batman became a raging a-hole. Plus Timm and Dini became high on their fashion doll cut-out female characters.

Batman Forever
Pro: They kept Hingle and Gough, nice for consistency. Debbie Mazar looks good in a corset. The film debut of Arkham Asylum.
Con: Jim Carrey as himself. Tommy Lee Jones' performance was mostly wretched. Nicole Kidman's character was unnecessary and only served to show that every comic hero film has to have a love interest, even if she only amounts to being a hostage in the final act. The new theme music is irritating.

Batman & Robin
Pro: Captured the spirit of the 66 Batman show. They kept Hingle and Gough, nice for consistency. Quotable awful dialouge is a hoot.
Con: As someone wrote, not only is the film stupid, it almost looks the audience in the eyes and says you are stupid for even watching it.

Batman Beyond
Pro: Continuity with "Timm Verse" or whatever its called. Cool opening credits.
Con: What was the point really? The futuristic versions of superheroes was trendy for a time...and I don't see the appeal. The more you remove the heroes from our world, the less interesting they are.

Birds of Prey
Pro: 3 attractive lead female characters.
Con: No matter what the premise is, any Gotham City based show can and will be summed up by "Where's Batman?" That is why you fail. Also, Harley Quinn as the main villain was underwhelming.

Catwoman
Pro: Berry works it. Even in that goofy mask.
Con: Benjamin Bratt is not a good leading man. The plot is standard and boring.

The Batman
Pro: Starting Bats out solo was a good idea. And when they added partners, they handled Batman and his partners better than TAS did.
Con: Mixed bag style and character wish. Too many villains were uninteresting. Made their own distinct Joker, but latter added an uninteresting take on Harley Quinn for no good reason. Too much Penguin, really. Poison Ivy was given to much superpowers. The hero team-up part of the final season was not that great, the finale was especially underwhelming.

Batman Begins:
Pro: It was a Batman movie about Bruce Wayne/Batman. Wrote a realism check that every sequel has to cash.
Con: Relies on the "villain wants to destroy Gotham" plotline that every previous movie (besides the 1966 one) used. Wrote a realism check that every sequel has to cash.

The Dark Knight:
Pro: Epic but mostly grounded. Good performances from Eckhart, Ledger and Oldman.
Con: Holmes should've been there for consistency. Bale seemed almost bored this time. Two-Face's face was a bit much. Standard, ineffective-if-not-incompetent action movie cops abound, aside from Gordon. Alfred is exposition and comic relief. Is that the standard butler role or the standard Nolan film Michael Caine part? Batpod was BATMISSILE from Batman Returns all over again. Come on.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Good to see a lot of people not liking the redesign of the animation in that later seasons of Batman: The Animated Series.

As a whole, it was a lot slicker and faster, which was good.

Individual characters varied a lot more; some got better looks (Batgirl, a more classic Penguin, Poison Ivy), a few got inferior (Joker, most notably; I'm glad they scrapped it in future shows; the Riddler as well).

 

[RandyS]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1943) & Batman and Robin (1949)
Never have seen them. I understand they are nearly unwatchable.

Incorrect. They are quite good. Both have been on DVD for three years now. I recoomed them.

As for my likes and dislikes, since it's Batman, I don't have too many dislikes. But the most recent ones follow.

Batman and Robin:

Bad, just bad

Batman Begins:

Good: Fixed the bad taste that Batman and Robin left in my mouth.
Bad: Katie Holmes as Rachek Dawes.

The Dark Knight.

Good: No Holmes, killed off Dawes (even though she was played by a superior actress thus time).
Bad: imcomprensible ending that I hope the next film fixes.

 

[Timby]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

"Batman" (1966)

...

NO DVD RELEASE

What?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

^One theatrical film down, three seasons of the TV series to go.

However, it's not like we don't know what Mark Hamill looks like. And I'd say, as he's gotten older, he's gotten creepier & creepier looking. Perfect for the Joker, IMO.

I don't have any pictures handy, but as I recall, he did a pretty good live action version of the Trickster on The Flash. I didn't even know it was Hamill! ("There's something familiar about this actor...like someone out of a movie....")

"Batman" (1966)

Con: Tainted the perception of comic books and super-heroes in the minds of the general public.
Pro: There was absolutely nothing cooler in the world than this show when I was in the middle of my single digits; sparked a lifetime obsession with super-hero comics.

I thought it was important to get the usual Con for that one out of the way to rebuke it with the Pro. I'd be interested to know if anyone else's story matches my own Pro.

Batman Fights Dracula (1967)

Pro: This hasn't, to my knowledge, seen the light of day in this country.
Con: Why is this here? And what the hell is Batman wearing on his chest?

(Picture repeated for easy reference.)

"The Batman/Superman Hour" (1968)

Are these are the same cartoons that they ran on Saturday morning in the late '70s, with Bat-Mite and all?

"Super Friends" (1973)

Pro: Also an early influence in my exposure to super-heroes, though not as definitive as Batman. Couldn't miss it as a kid.
Con: Cheesy, typical Saturday morning cartoon fare, practically unwatchable once I grew out of it.

Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992)

Why are these and the Nolan films each lumped together, but the Schumacher films aren't?

Pro: Took the stigma out of Batman in the minds of the general public, exposing them to a darker take on the character. First film was engagingly stylish. Nicholson was highly entertaining and while not a physical match, did justice to the homocidal maniac Joker of the '70s and beyond.
Con: First movie got some aspects of Batman wrong. Introduced a "rubber suit with muscles sculpted on the outside" paradigm that has refused to die, even infecting The Watchmen! Second film was a massive WTF. Even Michelle Pfeiffer in a bondage outfit didn't do anything for me because of the gothy, undead undertones.

"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)

Never saw much of this, but it comes off as obnoxiously overrated. I haven't seen the TV cartoon adaptation of a comic book super-hero that didn't soften things up for the kiddies.

Batman Forever (1995)

Pro: I remember liking the action sequences better. Kilmer seemed a better fit for the role than Keaton had been. The last shot of the backlit Batman and Robin running towards the camera was iconic. I never noticed the nipples...or was that only in the next film...? Nicole Kidman writhing in bondage was good for a cheap thrill.
Con: The (non-)portrayal of Two-Face. Way OTT plot device with the whole brain-draining TVs thing. Riddler's riddles didn't have that fun a-ha factor about them. They finally get a Robin and the new Batmobile is a one-seater...!?!

Batman & Robin (1997)

Con: The first movie I'd seen that made me leave the theater when it was over wishing that I'd left earlier.
Pro: I've never had the slightest inclination to watch it again.

"Birds of Prey" (2002)

Pro: Barbara Gordon and Canary Sr. were pretty good.
Con: We've taken everything bad about Smallville and put it in a less appropriate setting!

Catwoman (2004)

Pro: I've never seen this, and I never will.
Con: Other people have.

"The Batman" (2004)

I've seen very little of this, but it seemed like they were trying to Peter Parker-ize Bruce Wayne.

Batman Begins (2005)

Pro: Excellent portrayal of Bruce Wayne becoming Batman, with deviations from the standard mythos that actually improved the tale.
Con: The execution of Batman himself, once Wayne donned the suit, left something to be desired, including the awful voice and the adherence to the sculpted suit paradigm started by Burton.

The Dark Knight (2008)

Pro: An engaging story with great twists and turns.
Con: The rest of the movie is so naturalistic that the clumsy execution of Batman sticks out all the worse.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman 1989
Pro: Pretty much everything. One specific thing? The Batmobile.
Con: Tim Burton's "style."

Batman Returns
Pro: Michele Pfeiffer in leather.
Con: Tim Burton's "take" on The Penguin.

Batman Forever
Pro: Siggggh.... Let's see.... Well. Carey was "ok" as the Riddler, I guess.
Con: Oh geee. Just one? Kilmer's wooden "acting" style.

Batman and Robin
Pro: Clooney, I feel, is actualy a pretty good "Batman." And could've done much, much better if given more to work with. At the very least he's a good Bruce Wayne.
Con: Just one? Ugh. I'll pick one almost at random: The production values.

Batman Begins
Pro: A "real" and "true" "Batman feel" brought to screen, finally!
Con: Bale's "Batman voice."

The Dark Knight
Pro: Heath Ledger. Period.
Con: Bale's "Batman voice."

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman
Pro: Keaton, Batmobile, Batwing, Art Direction
Con: Basinger, Shitty Plot

Batman Returns
Pro: Keaton, Art Direction (was the Batmobile still in this one? if so, that too)
Con: Michelle Pfeiffer sucks, Penguin was pretty fucked up

Batman Forever
Pro: Ummm...Kilmer, if only because I like him in other shit. Kinda sucked as Bats, though.
Con: Jim Carey and Wrinkles What's his Two-Face = Suck

Batman and Robin
Pro: It ended before I slit my wrists.
Con: It exists.

Catwoman
Pro: Halley Berry's smokin' hot bod
Con: Everything else, inlcuding Halley Berry the person and actress

Batman: The Animated Series
Pro: Retro 30's style and Bat's voice
Con: Early eps sucked pure ass artistically and vocally.

Batman Begins*
Pro: Pretty much everything. My favorite superhero movie.
Con: Microwaves of sort-a-death, Tom Cruise's hostage, I mean wife.

The Dark Knight*
Pro: The Joker was pretty fuckin' sweet. Production values were crazy huge.
Con: Way too friggin' long; Maggie Butterface (having characters tell me she's beautiful doesn't make it so); post the Joker finale, the ending was one long meh. Didn't give two shits about either of Harvey's faces by then and all I could think of looking at him was the aliens from Mars Attacks

Batman: Gotham Knight
Pro: Some of the art was ok, copuple of stories were ok.
Con: Most of the art sucked ass and the stories were largely retarded. Waste of money.

*Bats did run over/cause to be killed a bunch of cops in both flicks. Not cool. And the cops are largely portrayed to be incompetent or downright useless. Also not cool. I get the corrupt part, but that's annoying after the first movie, too.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1966)
The Good: The humour was excellent. It was genuinely witty and well thought out. "Sometimes you can't get rid of a bomb!" will never, ever leave my head.

The Bad: It's difficult to watch campy Batman because I'm such a fan of dark Batman, but that's because I grew up on that, and speaking of growing up...

Batman: The Animated Series
The Good: I grew up on this. This was basically my interpretation of Batman when I was younger. It influenced my take on Batman so greatly that while I don't measure it up to everything like a lot of fans do, there is a sub-conscious comparison whenever anything Batman-related comes out.

The Bad: In my opinion it ran too short. I wanted more seasons, more episodes, done in the original style and format. It wasn't perfect, but it really represents Batman in my opinion, and I would have loved to have seen more of this universe. I guess that's not really a criticism but oh well.

Batman (1989) & Batman Returns
The Good: This was initially my first exposure to Batman, the '89 film. I came out of the womb slightly after this film came out and from my earliest memory I loved this film. It has been lowered in my book as of late, thanks to the Nolan films, but it is still my earliest movie and Batman memory.

The Bad: By Batman Returns this was becoming Tim Burton's take on a Tim Burton film, and not even Tim Burton's take on Batman (i.e. Batman '89).

Batman Beyond
The Good: I liked the Bruce Wayne stuff, however sparse and limited it was.

The Bad: I never liked Terry McGuiness as a character, and I had a difficult time believing Batman would just give up his mantle to him, despite whatever revelations occurred later on.

Batman Begins
The Good: Almost everything. I mean, I could go on and on for hours at how much I loved this film. From the casting to the script to the direction to the music to the story, and for the first time in Batman history a live-action and film representation of Batman just clicked on every level. I especially loved Christian Bale, who shall forever remain my unclenched hero.

The Bad: The film isn't perfect, however. The third act is clunky and awkward and it definitely feels soundstage-esque compared to the first hour, which felt fluid and natural.

The Dark Knight
The Good: Everything that Begins didn't have going for it rights itself here, and it takes the Batman mythos and transcends not only what has been done before with the character but also the entire superhero lexicon as well. I think this is the benchmark in which every other superhero film will be compared.

The Bad: Unlike Begins this is not Bruce Wayne's story, this is Gotham City's story, so Bruce Wayne suffers a bit but the story still firmly revolves around him, he just shares the screentime much more this time around. It's not necessarily a bad thing but a bit of a contrast from Begins in which it wholly centered around him.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1943)
Pro: The serialized format with action-packed cliff-hangers.
Con: Dr. Daka and "The Yellor Peril" propaganda presented throughout the serials at the height of WWII with Americans fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Dr. Daka is an evil Japanese spy who wants to help Japan take over America? Yes, we get it, but it felt very forced and shoe-horned into a proper Batman story, and the first live-action one at that...


Batman and Robin (1949)
I never saw it, so I cannot properly comment. But, this above all the other live-action Batman incarnations that I have missed thus far I plan to see sometime in my lifetime.


"Batman" (1966)
Good: The colorful cast of heroes and villains in a fun, colorful camp make this one worth revisiting time and again.
Bad: Poor TV production values in comparison to the sleeker modern Batman films.


Batman Fights Dracula (1967)
I never saw it, and this one doesn't even count.


"The Batman/Superman Hour" (1968)
I never saw it, and this was years before my time.


"Super Friends" (1973)
Good: The Big Five of Supes, WW, Batman, Robin, and even Aquaman + Firestorm, Cyborg, Samurai, Apache Chief, etc. facing off against the Legion of Doom.
Bad: The Wonder Twins.


Batman (1989)
Good: Tim Burton's direction and Kim Basinger.
Bad: I never bought Michael Keaton -- "Mr. Mom," "Johnny Dangerously" -- as Batman/Bruce Wayne.


Batman Returns (1992)
Good: Tim Burton's direction and the 4 overlapped storylines (Batman, Catwoman, Penguin, Max Schreck) converging into one.
Bad: It is a dark, and depressing film that does not resemble the proper Batman mythos in anyway. This is more Tim Burton's vision than anything else.

"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)
Good: Excellent animation, characterizations, and storylines. Kevin Conroy's performance as Batman/Bruce Wayne and Mark Hamill's voice as The Joker are a definite plus!
Bad: Although not part of the TV show proper, but straight to DVD/video, I thought "Batman: Sub-zero" was weak and sub-par eventhough it is a direct continuation of the TAS episode "Deep Freeze."


Batman Forever (1995)
Good: Val Kilmer and the originally intended director's cut.
Bad: Tommy Lee Jones's Two-Face and the butchered theatrical cut. (What shame that the director's cut has yet to see the light of day...)


Batman & Robin (1997)
Good: Alfred's MacGregor's disease storyline.
Bad: George Clooney's performance as Batman (He wasn't right for the part, although he acquits himself as a dashing Bruce Wayne), Joel Schumacher's direction, Akiva Goldsman's script, and most especially the studio interference when it came to this film production.


"Batman Beyond" (1999)
Good: The pilot was excellent.
Bad: I never saw the rest of the show, so I cannot properly comment.


"Birds of Prey" (2002)
I never saw it, so I cannot properly comment.


Catwoman (2004)
Good: Halle Berry's sexy leather costume.
Bad: I can't believe that I even paid to see this in the theatres even after it was critically panned by all the critics and avoided by the public at large (reason I saw it: Halle Berry's costume )

"The Batman" (2004)
I never saw it, so I cannot properly comment.


Batman Begins (2005)
Good: A good, solid origin story.
Bad: Clunky in places, in terms of dialogue, performances, and stylistic choices (such as the Tumbler rather than a more traditional Batmobile).


The Dark Knight (2008)
Good: Everything...
Bad: ...except for the ending where Bruce as Batman decides to take the wrap for Harvey (Two-Face). What was Chris Nolan thinking when he approved of that contrived ending?

Batman: Gotham Knight (2008)
I never saw it, so I cannot properly comment.

 

[Maurice]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman Returns (1992)

...Also, there's a rumor that Max Schreck was actually supposed to be Harvey Dent (Billy Dee Williams) and the zap with Catwoman at the end would've turned him into Two-Face for the third movie. If this is true, damn you! Damn you all to hell!

I call shenanigans on that. I have a draft of the Batman Returns script from pretty early on and Max Shreck is still Shreck. The big difference is, that in the end it turns out Shreck is the Penguin's brother: the parents kept the pretty child and threw away the deformed one...but Shreck turns out to be perhaps even uglier inside that Penguin is on the outside.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

^Actually, that is true. Originally before Daniel Waters was on brought on board the original plan was to bring back Billy Dee Williams and basically sort of put him in Max Shreck's place in the film. Williams was even contracted to return in Batman Returns but when Burton brought on Waters because he wasn't satisfied with the direction of the script, Dent became Shreck and Williams was bought out of his contract (he would be bought out of his contract again for Batman Forever).

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman Returns (1992)

...Also, there's a rumor that Max Schreck was actually supposed to be Harvey Dent (Billy Dee Williams) and the zap with Catwoman at the end would've turned him into Two-Face for the third movie. If this is true, damn you! Damn you all to hell!

I call shenanigans on that. I have a draft of the Batman Returns script from pretty early on and Max Shreck is still Shreck. The big difference is, that in the end it turns out Shreck is the Penguin's brother: the parents kept the pretty child and threw away the deformed one...but Shreck turns out to be perhaps even uglier inside that Penguin is on the outside.

Actually I wouldn't have minded that addition to the story.