Constitution class Engineering

[Norsehound]

I might be opening up a can of worms here, but in case this isn't one of those topics that is prone to explode and power the subject of this discussion, let's roll with it!

I never bought into the notion that main engineering is in the secondary hull. Yeah I know that's where it is in TMP (at the front of the engineering hull...), but it made more sense to me to believe main engineering is in the saucer.

For one, if the ship has to undergo saucer separation it's better to have total engineering control on the lifeboat part of the ship. If main engineering is centralized there you don't have to work with rudimentary controls when trying to control the lifeboat saucer.

For another it's closer to the bridge and the weapons systems. While it's called the "Engineering hull", I took that to mean the concentration of mission-special equipment too bulky to keep in the primary hull. The navigational deflector (and primary sensor?) and shuttle bay are things other fan TOS classes seem to get along well enough without after all. If engineering is the secondary hull, where does it go for starships that don't have this structure as part of the design? Better that uniformity of design always has it attached to the saucer, no matter what the secondary and nacelle arrangement is.

I also think putting the M/AM reactor right behind the shuttlebay was begging for disaster. Say there was a mishap and the shuttle went right through the back wall on impact... would that blow up the ship? Cripple the warp drive too bad to repair without a spacedock?

I like to think that the intermix reaction happening was underneath the floor of engineering, maybe under that structure they introduced in the second season (replacing the big units from Enemy Within?). If the TOS Enterprise did have a "spinal column" of a warp column, the top was underneath this structure and went down.

While Day of the Dove gives us a stock shot showing (*) coming out of the secondary hull, I'd argue that was just the best shot they could use for that kind of effect. Looking at the other stock photography, what else could they have used to have the spiral grow and then vanish out of the shot?

Also Day of the dove... I find it hard to accept that 400 crewmen are trapped beneath essentially the bottom four levels of the ship. Locking off the entire engineering hull and the lower part of the saucer seems more plausible to me. That way (*) keeps the action concentrated on the midline-and-above of the saucer to cover the two critical areas of the ship and the ones most hotly contested by both parties.

 

[MarsWeeps]

While Day of the Dove gives us a stock shot showing (*) coming out of the secondary hull, I'd argue that was just the best shot they could use for that kind of effect.

If you are going to ignore on screen evidence of engineering being in the secondary hull, then go ahead and choose whatever theory makes you happy.

 

[Timo]

It's really rather surprising that we have so little visual information on this issue that nothing, bar nothing, contradicts the "Day of the Dove" shot...

Really, we could just as well believe that everything was always exactly as it's shown being in ST:TMP, save for a new layer of paint. We just didn't get to see those parts of the machinery where people have to wear the bulky coveralls - we got to see Scotty's office where all the central control panels are.

FWIW, I'm not a great believer in the noncanon "saucer lifeboat" theory. The only time anything even remotely resembling that concept came up, in "The Apple", Kirk specifically had to suggest this course of action - and it even sounded as if he were making a joke, on the vein of "go out and push, ye daft Scot!". For all we know, TOS saucers were there for atmospheric entry specifically, and would not be used as lifeboats in any other context.

(As for "trapped crew", obviously the trapping wasn't two-dimensional - we saw our heroes struggle with locked doors rather than floor or ceiling hatches exclusively, so their usel... I mean helpless co-workers were separated horizontally as well as vertically.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Main Engineering, housing the warp core, would be in the stardrive section, closer to the warp engines so as to avoid overly long power transfer conduits running through the ship (especially the very slim neck, one hit there and the ship has no way to send energy to the main drive).

Secondary/Auxiliary Engineering, housing the impulse reactors, would be in the saucer section, right next to the impulse engines with enough power generating capacity to run essential systems (environmental, sensors, communications) though most likely at a reduced capacity until the saucer can be recovered and the crew rescued.

That's how I always looked at it.

 

[T'Girl]

Ther M/AM reactors could be in the nacelles, closely ajacent to the warp coils. Main engineering would be in the secondary hull and run the reactors (and everything else in the nacelles) remotely.

If you buy into the idea that the interior of the nacelles is a dangerious place for life forms that you would want to spent as little time in as possible in. Also the nacelles during warp travel could have powerful magnetic fields, that again you would expose yourself to for only brief periods of time.

If at all.

 

[uniderth]

I find the idea that the reactors are in the nacelles to be the most logical. They stick them way out there on these flimsy struts for some reason. It's not just to look pretty. Plus the glowing end caps give the feel of some amazing power being generated there. The idea that those are bussard collectors is an unnecessary retcon. That's why I just call them reactor domes.

Thus the facilities that are called engineering would be geared more towards power regulation than power generation. I imagine there are several of these locations, some in the saucer some in the secondary hull.

Once we get into TMP with the new nacelles we notice there are no more reactor domes. Instead we have a glowy-flowy "warp core" thing(intermix shaft?). Also the engineering crew are now wearing radiation protection suits.

This intermix shaft could arguably be in the saucer or the secondary hull. In support of the saucer theory we have the U.S.S. Reliant with no secondary hull. Additionally, there is no way for a turbo lift to get past the intermix shaft in the "neck" region. This means that everyone has to get out of the turbo lift, shimmy past the intermix shaft, and get in another turbo lift.

On the other hand if people have to wear radiation suit around this thing why would you put it in the saucer near all the living quarters, lounges, etc. But then again, the Reliant.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I might be opening up a can of worms here...

Yep. Yep you did.

While Day of the Dove gives us a stock shot showing (*) coming out of the secondary hull, I'd argue that was just the best shot they could use for that kind of effect.

If you are going to ignore on screen evidence of engineering being in the secondary hull, then go ahead and choose whatever theory makes you happy.

Thanks, I will.

It's really rather surprising that we have so little visual information on this issue that nothing, bar nothing, contradicts the "Day of the Dove" shot...

Unless you take into account the multiple connecting shots throughout the entire series where the characters approach engineering from a large curved corridor that can't possibly fit inside the secondary hull.

And to be a curmudgeon, I refuse to call the secondary hull of TOS vessels the "stardrive section", the primary hull the "saucer section", the matter/energy acquisition sinks "bussard collectors", etc.

 

[Timo]

Unless you take into account the multiple connecting shots throughout the entire series where the characters approach engineering from a large curved corridor that can't possibly fit inside the secondary hull.

Why couldn't it? We have had resident experts draw interiors that exclusively consist of onscreen elements of the set, and manage to fit most of them in there just fine. We don't have to assume a curved section somehow "denotes" a full circle, after all.

OTOH, if we watch too carefully, the sets certainly won't fit within the primary hull, either, not at the 300-meter approximate size commonly accepted.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

I always kinda thought that the majority of the engine room was devoted to the warp engines or "Power nacelles"; once those are ejected, you no longer need controls for them. So, upon saucer separation, your engineering crew focuses on the Impulse engine located in the saucer.

Regarding fan designs and their apparent lack of certain equipment. TOS always made the Enterprise and her sister ships to be something special, the biggest and the best, they were Explorers. Other ships of the fleet didn't venture out as far so they didn't need the extra equipment.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Unless you take into account the multiple connecting shots throughout the entire series where the characters approach engineering from a large curved corridor that can't possibly fit inside the secondary hull.

Why couldn't it? We have had resident experts draw interiors that exclusively consist of onscreen elements of the set, and manage to fit most of them in there just fine. We don't have to assume a curved section somehow "denotes" a full circle, after all.

OTOH, if we watch too carefully, the sets certainly won't fit within the primary hull, either, not at the 300-meter approximate size commonly accepted.

Timo Saloniemi

I remember those threads. While an interesting and noble experiment in trying to fit a set bigger than it really should be into a limited space, the intent of what that curved corridor represented in the context of the show was clearly supposed to be in the primary hull. People just simply didn't over-think stuff like this back then like we do now. If it was a curved hallway, then it was supposed to be in the primary hull. If it was a straight hallway, it was in the secondary hull (which is why the Jefferies tube was off a straight hallway, going up into a nacelle pylon, and the shuttle bay observation deck was a straight hallway - no curve - also in the secondary hull). With his well-documented love for melding form with function, I cannot imagine Matt Jefferies ever thinking that the curved corridor should have been in the secondary hull. Ever.

And please don't bring up the "lower decks" in-dialog argument. The statement was made on the bridge, where all decks were "lower decks".

I do like the concept that there were two engineering's - one in the primary hull controlling the impulse systems and one in the secondary controlling warp, similarly laid out but with some notable cosmetic differences. That way, the skills involved with working in one room would be generally compatible with the other with minimal specialization, and if the two halves separated, each would have their own "main engineering".

I always kinda thought that the majority of the engine room was devoted to the warp engines or "Power nacelles"; once those are ejected, you no longer need controls for them. So, upon saucer separation, your engineering crew focuses on the Impulse engine located in the saucer.

Regarding fan designs and their apparent lack of certain equipment. TOS always made the Enterprise and her sister ships to be something special, the biggest and the best, they were Explorers. Other ships of the fleet didn't venture out as far so they didn't need the extra equipment.

Unfortunately, the technological concepts surrounding where the power comes from in a starship changes from TOS to TMP and then on to TNG. In TOS, the way the dialog was written implies that the ship's power derives solely from the warp engines. Cut that off and you lose everything but auxiliary power. There was no M/AM intermix chamber in TOS (at least, not on-screen), dilithium crystals also seemed to provide energy of some kind, but didn't appear to always be directly tied into any kind of intermix process. The intermix chamber was introduced in TMP. However, there still seemed to be an attachment to the warp drive providing power to the ship (as seen in the wormhole scene), things got even more murky with the "mains reactor" room on the side where Spock went in TWOK. Then when TNG came around, the warp drive in its current form is built and all primary energy is derived from the M/AM reaction and routed out to different systems (and seems to be continued on and getting retconned into Enterprise that takes place chronologically before TOS). Incidentally, I prefer the TNG model over all the others. It makes the most functional sense, IMO.

It's all just one of those bits of Trek tech that evolves over the years like shields and transporters.

 

[Shark]

I always kinda thought that the majority of the engine room was devoted to the warp engines or "Power nacelles"; once those are ejected, you no longer need controls for them. So, upon saucer separation, your engineering crew focuses on the Impulse engine located in the saucer.

Regarding fan designs and their apparent lack of certain equipment. TOS always made the Enterprise and her sister ships to be something special, the biggest and the best, they were Explorers. Other ships of the fleet didn't venture out as far so they didn't need the extra equipment.

Unfortunately, the technological concepts surrounding where the power comes from in a starship changes from TOS to TMP and then on to TNG.

Right, which makes sense both from a real-world point of view and an In-Universe view. The technology was constantly evolving.

 

[Patrickivan]

I'm 42, and I'd say up until I was in my early 30's, was convinced (purely on going along with most others) that the m/am engines were in the Engineering hull (or secondary hull)...

But then I read some notes by MJ on the ship design, and then copied all the scripts to a PDF and did key word searches and have become firmly entrenched that the m/am engines were completely snuggled up in the nacelles.

That said, I'm also convinced there are other types of power sources on the ship, but the m/am engines are JUST in the nacelles.

So, my point is, that those other power generation and storage systems are in the secondary and primary hulls. The primary hull has impulse engines powered by whatever reactors, the secondary hull has main engineering for the main sensor and deflectors, m/am power distribution from the engines (since those are the main and most awesomely powerful systems on the ship, completely dwarfing all other secondary power sources).

Of course main engineering in the secondary hull controls the nacelle engines because in the event of a separation from the main hull, the main hull won't need that engineering system control anyway. Default main engineering is then the primary hull because the backup systems are normal for that control room.

I've also just assumed that the m/am engines in the nacelles coupled with the actual warp drive system is in a way, very basic in the sense that it's low maintenance. Couple that with the extreme dangerous nature of it, there's just no need for anyone to ever access those engines AND if they were damaged, a starbase would probably be needed anyway to replace those large systems.

Meh- I know people have other ideas on the subject, but that's my position so far and unless there's some unearthed information on the subject, this is where I'm stuck.

This was for the TOS connie... The movie connies have started to strike me as a hybrid approach

 

[Wingsley]

I would say it is clear that, judging from the obviously different sets used for multiple rooms or different shapes that "Engineering" is more of a division of ship's personnel than a location. You call for Engineering on the intercom and you get Scott on the other end of the line because he's the chief engineer.

In "The Alternative Factor" we get to see an entirely different set, a set that sustains damage from Lazarus' sabotage. The personnel there explicitly refer to their station as "Engineering", yet the set is completely different from the large set referred to as "Engine Room". Could this be part of the saucer's impulse engine room? Could it be most, or even all of the saucer's impulse engine room?

It would make sense that both the saucer and the secondary hull would have their own "engineering" facilities, since the modular TOS Enterprise must be capable of some kind of separation. Even without "lifeboat" functionality, separation seems logical.

There is one other consideration: look at the curvature of the saucer's underside. That undercut would shape everything in the lower decks of the saucer. Isn't that undercut going to make a large engine room inside the saucer impossible, assuming that such a large engine room would be located adjacent to the impulse engines as seen on the saucer's aft outer rim?

 

[Mytran]

Ooo, a subject very close to my heart!

For one, if the ship has to undergo saucer separation it's better to have total engineering control on the lifeboat part of the ship. If main engineering is centralized there you don't have to work with rudimentary controls when trying to control the lifeboat saucer.

I think this misses the point of separation - that either part can be a lifeboat, depending on the circumstances of the disaster. Some duplication of resources then would definitely be desirable!

I like to think that the intermix reaction happening was underneath the floor of engineering, maybe under that structure they introduced in the second season (replacing the big units from Enemy Within?). If the TOS Enterprise did have a "spinal column" of a warp column, the top was underneath this structure and went down.

Thanks to the undercut of the saucer, there really is very little space for even a horizontal intermix chamber (TNG-style). The Engine Room set itself is up to 16' tall most of the time (a little shorter in Season 1), so where's the space all the paraphernalia that a TNG setup usually requires?

As Patrickivan already mentioned, a closer look at the TOS scripts demonstrably shows that the main engines AKA nacelles AKA antimatter pods are the primary source of the ship's power and where all the really dangerous stuff is kept. Attempts to crowbar that setup into the TNG-style onboard reactor is possible (other posters here have done it) but requires that elements of the scripts be rewritten or ignored altogether. Occam's Razor suggests the obvious - the M/AM reactors are in the nacelles.

So, what's in the Engineering Hull? Stabilising controls for those honking great engines, for one thing! Power taps for the deflectors and other ship's systems for another, converting the raw energy from the nacelles into something more user-friendly (in fact this is probably what a lot of that exposed machinery in the Engine Room set is used for). A lot of this stuff is duplicated in the saucer, of course, but drawing energy from the Impulse Engines instead. I would imagine that much of the tech is the same though, allowing warp power energy converters to be installed on ships that lack the secondary hull.

 

[uniderth]

Here's another thought on separation. In "The Apple" Kirk, at one point tell Scotty to: "Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there."

We often look at separating the primary hull from the secondary hull. But I think there is another option here. That is jettisoning the nacelles by themselves. This would leave you with the "main section" (primary and secondary hulls).

In this mode of separation you wouldn't loose all your shuttle craft, cargo and other important machinery. But you would still get rid of those dangerous m/am reactors (aka bombs). However in the context of "The Apple" is sounds more like Kirk is talking about shedding weight(meaning mass).

With this mode of separation would there really be any reason to jettison the secondary hull? If your dangerous stuff is out there in the nacelles why ditch your secondary hull?

 

[Wingsley]

I always understood in "The Apple" that Vaal's defense mechanism first neutralized the m/am pods and then grabbed the ship with a tractor beam. So, at that point, the nacelles and engineering were just dead weight. (No word on the state of the shuttlecraft; could they have been neutralized as well?) As for Vaal's tractor beam, we were never told how it had grabbed this ship. Could Vaal's hold on the Enterprise have been a lock on the aft section (nacelles and secondary hull)? If so, a saucer jettison would make it easier to escape. Scott would make it his business to know which parts of the ship were under the alien beam.

I always saw Kirk's mention of the main section as a last-resort survival move. By that point, Kirk would presume the Enterprise is lost and the saucer is simply an escape craft to save the crew.

 

[uniderth]

I agree it was a last resort move. But he did specifically say discard the warp drive nacelles. He didn't say discard the secondary/engineering hull; just the nacelles. While it could be argued whether the anti-matter pods are, or are in, the warp nacelles; the pod had been rendered inert. They were just dead weight as you said. However it could be argued that the secondary hull was still useful. It probably still had lots of cargo, utility craft, and other equipment that was still useful for an escape.

Either way, the dialog is clear that Kirk knows one mode of separation for the Enterprise is for the nacelles can be jettisoned, leaving the main section(primary and secondary) to continue on it's own.

This just makes sense to me. Say the reactor(s) in your nacelle(s) were going to explode. Why jettison the entire secondary hull, when you can jettison just the nacelles(or even a single nacelle) and keep all that useful stuff.

 

[feek61]

I
FWIW, I'm not a great believer in the noncanon "saucer lifeboat" theory. The only time anything even remotely resembling that concept came up, in "The Apple", Kirk specifically had to suggest this course of action - and it even sounded as if he were making a joke, on the vein of "go out and push, ye daft Scot!". For all we know, TOS saucers were there for atmospheric entry specifically, and would not be used as lifeboats in any other context.

Timo Saloniemi

It mentions rather casually in "The Making of Star Trek" referring to the secondary hull "Minimal crew quarters are located in this hull, used by duty engineers and by the star drive crew when the saucer section has detached and is operating separately".

This seems to suggest that the saucer separation is something that would happen from time-to-time other than only in emergency situations. We probably just didn't see it on screen because of budget constraints in producing the show. It would have been near impossible to show since the miniature itself was not designed to come apart.

According to Matt Jefferies the designer of the Enterprise; the nacelles on the pylons were designed that way so that they could easily be changed out for upgrades (or it could be inferred; jettisoned if need be)

 

[MantaBase]

I never bought into the notion that main engineering is in the secondary hull. Yeah I know that's where it is in TMP (at the front of the engineering hull...), but it made more sense to me to believe main engineering is in the saucer.

In the FJ Design (approved by GR), there is engineering in both hulls. There is no "main" designation. I do recall curved halls in the area of one of the engineering section and the only curved halls are in the primary hull (saucer). There ios an engineering deck in the secondary hull - it does house machines shops, a large computer, and even medical.

For one, if the ship has to undergo saucer separation it's better to have total engineering control on the lifeboat part of the ship. If main engineering is centralized there you don't have to work with rudimentary controls when trying to control the lifeboat saucer.

For another it's closer to the bridge and the weapons systems. While it's called the "Engineering hull", I took that to mean the concentration of mission-special equipment too bulky to keep in the primary hull. The navigational deflector (and primary sensor?) and shuttle bay are things other fan TOS classes seem to get along well enough without after all.

It could be. I would have to watch the TOS shows closely again to determine that.

If engineering is the secondary hull, where does it go for starships that don't have this structure as part of the design? Better that uniformity of design always has it attached to the saucer, no matter what the secondary and nacelle arrangement is.

See above, it is in both.

I also think putting the M/AM reactor right behind the shuttlebay was begging for disaster. Say there was a mishap and the shuttle went right through the back wall on impact... would that blow up the ship? Cripple the warp drive too bad to repair without a spacedock?

Well, you want it close to the support pylons to limit the amount of high energy conduit - but it may be the one in the primary hull. Either way, I suspect there is a bit more than a layer of drywall surrounding it.

I like to think that the intermix reaction happening was underneath the floor of engineering, maybe under that structure they introduced in the second season (replacing the big units from Enemy Within?). If the TOS Enterprise did have a "spinal column" of a warp column, the top was underneath this structure and went down.

I *think* that those reactors are in the nacelles.

While Day of the Dove gives us a stock shot showing (*) coming out of the secondary hull, I'd argue that was just the best shot they could use for that kind of effect. Looking at the other stock photography, what else could they have used to have the spiral grow and then vanish out of the shot?

Also Day of the dove... I find it hard to accept that 400 crewmen are trapped beneath essentially the bottom four levels of the ship. Locking off the entire engineering hull and the lower part of the saucer seems more plausible to me. That way (*) keeps the action concentrated on the midline-and-above of the saucer to cover the two critical areas of the ship and the ones most hotly contested by both parties.

I would have to watch it again, but there is certainly physical room enough. Most of the regular crew quarters are on decks 16-19 and deck 20 has a large recreation area - deck 21 even has a bowling alley.

 

[Mytran]

We often look at separating the primary hull from the secondary hull. But I think there is another option here. That is jettisoning the nacelles by themselves. This would leave you with the "main section" (primary and secondary hulls).
Good point, especially as That which Survives has frequent references to jettisoning the engine pod which Scotty is in (yes; I am interpreting that line to mean a nacelle, since TNG antimatter storage "pods" did not appear in TOS at all). There's even a red separation line on the underside of the nacelles!

The concept of a saucer making a planetary landing is pretty much the only scenario I can envisage where you would want to ditch the secondary hull, since it would make a soft-landing nigh-on impossible.

However as far as The Apple is concerned I agree that Kirk is talking about shedding mass - a manoeuvre which Scotty considers extremeley dangerous, FWIW.

It mentions rather casually in "The Making of Star Trek" referring to the secondary hull "Minimal crew quarters are located in this hull, used by duty engineers and by the star drive crew when the saucer section has detached and is operating separately".

This bit of text sounds suspiciously like a carryover from the first series bible, where the Saucer would routinely detach from the "stardrive" section and go exploring the solar system independently each mission, to reconnect later on. As you said, it is hardly surprising that this never happened on the show!

regarding DOTD, we are told that the Klingons occupy Deck 6 and starboard Deck 7. Going by MJ's cutaway sketch, Deck 5 is the widest deck; plenty of room horizontally for the crew to be trapped behind pressure doors!