Conspiracy- biology questions

[Timo]

One might argue that leaving the host would be tactically advantageous down at SF HQ regardless of whether the host had been rendered temporarily or permanently immobile - there would be few threats around. The bugs clearly had no "supernatural" way of communicating with each other, even over short distances (or Riker's cover would have been immediately blown), so it would be important for one of them to physically bring the news of new developments to the Remmick creature.

In turn, leaving Quinn while aboard the E-D would be tactically disadvantageous, as there would be numerous people around to spot the roaming little bug. Supposedly (or, rather, for lack of evidence to the contrary), the taking over of a body would be a fairly protracted process, perhaps even something the bugs would literally need a helping hand for - so the bug in itself would be helpless aboard the ship.

Doesn't mean Scott, Saval and Aaron couldn't have been killed, though.

intuitively one might suggest that they can be "tuned" to agitate/heat different materials.

Agreed. It's a typical event in Star Trek that a beam capable of blinking its intended target out of existence does not create collateral damage when missing, and this would be a good explanation to cover all the bases.

The interesting counterpoint comes from TNG "Legacy" where Riker and Worf storm an underground facility, Riker downs a bad guy, and the two immediately turn their phasers to a door and start cutting through it; the supposed stun beam of Riker's gun cuts through the door just as easily as Worf's undefined beam type.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

Been awhile since I read Unity, but in the DS9 relaunch novels the queen parasites are said to be similar to the regular ones. That big slug thing that came out of Remmick is a gestational thing to give birth to the baby parasites that grows in a host after the queen parasite takes control.

That makes a bit more sense than a giant slug somehow burrowing it's way into a host body unoticed.

This kind of makes sense a little. The creature was inside the stomach using technology from the TARDIS to prevent a pregnancy bump.

We have seen that the parasite sits on the spine and uses tendrils to connect with the hosts nervous system.

It's not possible for the large creature churning out creepy crawlies in the stomach to be connected at the spine so far up the body. So perhaps it is a separate entity from the mother creature.

 

[Timo]

...In theory, we could argue that the large mother creature never was inside Remmick. We only saw it rising from the remains of his corpse; perhaps it had been hiding inside that fancy chair all the time?

Perhaps Remmick wasn't a special individual in any particular way; perhaps the big beast was a commanding entity who communicated with the rest of the invasion force by accessing whoever was sitting in that chair (through the obvious way), and occasionally having the sitter open his or her mouth for arriving messenger bugs so that they could temporarily hook up for direct neural transfer of information.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

...In theory, we could argue that the large mother creature never was inside Remmick. We only saw it rising from the remains of his corpse; perhaps it had been hiding inside that fancy chair all the time?

Perhaps Remmick wasn't a special individual in any particular way; perhaps the big beast was a commanding entity who communicated with the rest of the invasion force by accessing whoever was sitting in that chair (through the obvious way), and occasionally having the sitter open his or her mouth for arriving messenger bugs so that they could temporarily hook up for direct neural transfer of information.

Timo Saloniemi

So how would the creature hiding in the chair enter Remmick? Through the anus?

 

[Vanyel]

One of the ways I saw it was that the Mother (or Queen, if they are insectoid) had simply completely taken over Remmick, making him a zombie of sorts. She hollowed out his torso and then became responsible for keeping his brain and arms and legs "alive." His brain though was hers. He ceased being Remmick whenever she took him over.

 

[Timo]

Occupying that much of Remmick's body cavity would make it difficult to keep him alive, though. What we saw of the thing appeared bigger than a Trill slug already, and apparently there remained something unseen below, to give the visible part the ability to swivel like that.

Remarkably, Remmick was one of the least zombie-like of the possessed officers...

So how would the creature hiding in the chair enter Remmick? Through the anus?

At that point, there wouldn't be enough left of Remmick to "enter". The proper expression would be something like "swim upwards through"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

I pondered the biology of these things when I drafted a script that featured them that I was going to submit to TNG back in 1990. One thing that never made sense was how there things could attach to the spine by entering through the mouth. They'd have to slice their way through the body and not manage to cause major damage or death in the process. un-fraking-likely

 

[Timo]

One thing that never made sense was how there things could attach to the spine by entering through the mouth.

...But do we have any reason to think they would enter through the mouth?

I mean, one crawled into the Remmick-shaped thing. But that one didn't attach itself to Remmick's spine.

For all we know, the bugs have to be entered by a helpful humanoid making an incision in the neck and then sealing it over the inserted bug. Easy with 23rd century technology, trivial with 24th.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Never mind. The Ceti eel came out the ear, not themouth.

 

[Maurice]

One thing that never made sense was how there things could attach to the spine by entering through the mouth.

...But do we have any reason to think they would enter through the mouth?

I mean, one crawled into the Remmick-shaped thing. But that one didn't attach itself to Remmick's spine.

For all we know, the bugs have to be entered by a helpful humanoid making an incision in the neck and then sealing it over the inserted bug. Easy with 23rd century technology, trivial with 24th.

Timo Saloniemi

But then why EXIT through the mouth? The creature would have to cut through more flesh going that way that than coming out the back of the neck, not to mention scooting around the spine.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, good point. Although we might perhaps be allowed to argue that this

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x25/conspiracy234.jpg

represents a bug cutting its way out through the (lower sinister) neck of Admiral Aaron, and then crawling along the floor, under his head, to emerge from the rough location of his mouth while headed towards the room where the Remmick creature awaited for news.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

Indeed, good point. Although we might perhaps be allowed to argue that this

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x25/conspiracy234.jpg

represents a bug cutting its way out through the (lower sinister) neck of Admiral Aaron, and then crawling along the floor, under his head, to emerge from the rough location of his mouth while headed towards the room where the Remmick creature awaited for news.

Timo Saloniemi

It didn't look like that to me. It looked like he fell unconscious and his mouth voluntarily opened to accommodate the parasite leaving

 

[Unicron]

^ Agreed. If it were merely going under Aaron's head, the mouth wouldn't have moved the way it did.

 

[Vanyel]

In describing the creatures, to me anyway, most here seem to be describing a parasite. The creatures could be in a symbiotic relationship. So when it lost control of its host it could have returned to it's "mother" without dramatically harming its former host. Perhaps it broke free of its tendrils and travel around the neck, just under the skin before exiting the mouth. Granted, either way it exited the body it should have left blood behind.

 

[Maurice]

The script isn't too specific, but it spells out that the parasites are emerging from the victim's mouths, and implies that Picard and Riker kill at least Savar. Note that no parasite is seen leaving his mouth.

Just as the worms are about to touch his tongue, RIKER
shocks everyone by PULLING A PHASER AND FIRING at the
guard. HE quivers before DROPPING like a fly.

Tryla fires at Riker and misses. Picard seizes the
moment, grabbing the phaser from the unconscious
Guard. Aaron pushes Picard to the ground and BOLTS
FOR THE DOOR. Before Picard can pivot to pick him off,
TRYLA SCOTT JUMPS UP AND takes aim on him. SHE FIRES,
barely missing his head. RIKER CUTS HER DOWN before
she can fire again. Scott quivers and drops. A
PARASITE quickly FLEES her open mouth...

Meanwhile, Savar has charged Riker and has him in a
death grip around the throat. PICARD FIRES INTO THE
VULCAN'S BACK...

The VULCAN drops to his knees, finally releasing his
grip. He falls over, dead.

Still holding his throat, Riker reaches back and
removes the counterfeit splinter from his neck.
Suddenly, both he and Picard have the same thought...

PICARD
Aaron!

85 INT. GREAT HALLWAY - AARON (OPTICAL)

is desperate, running straight toward us down the long
hallway. Far behind, Picard and Riker come around a
corner and take aim...

RIKER
(calling out)
Hold it, Aaron!

Aaron spins and FIRES -- Picard and Riker dive out of
the way. The Admiral keeps running... he's almost at
the end of the hall... RIKER AND PICARD FIRE, scoring
two direct hits. AARON WINCES AND GOES DOWN. His
momentum sends him sliding along the smooth floor.

86 ANGLE ON PICARD AND RIKER (OPTICAL)

running up to the body. They get there just in time
to see the PARASITE evacuating it. Before they can
fire, it SCURRIES AROUND THE CORNER and out of sight.

 

[Timo]

If we don't want to believe in Aaron's controlling invader leaving his body in a bloodless manner through his mouth, we don't have to.

Rather, we can decide that the bug in Aaron's neck never left - possibly the phaser blasts stunned or killed it. Instead, Aaron had at least one further bug residing in his stomach, a capacity later demonstrated by Remmick. This bug left Aaron bloodlessly to take a message to the leader.

This way, we can skip all the medically dubious parts. The creatures cannot cut their way into the neck of a victim on their own, but are neatly inserted using 24th century surgical tools. They can't leave the neck, either, but when caught they may opt to dissolve. And a potentially large number of the creatures can operate inside a humanoid body, for all sorts of reasons: concealed carry, modification of body cavities for further use, transformation into the larger "mother creature". Perhaps that's why everybody was eating worms - they needed to feed the bugs residing in the stomachs?

...And Quinn would carry the bug intended for Crusher in a suitcase rather than in a stomach because he also needed to carry the surgical implements needed to install it. Those would have been at the lower layer of the suitcase contents.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Solarbaby]

This reminds me of Goa'uld from Stargate. The To'Kra good guy symbiants entered through the mouth as it was more civilised and there wasno pain. Whereas the evil Goa'uld just bit into the back of the neck and left a painful visible scar. So even they got it wrong since we never saw any blood from entering through the mouth. Maybe the Trek parasites have some way to change their shape like the Suliban can to get into tight corners.

 

[Timo]

So even they got it wrong since we never saw any blood from entering through the mouth.

Why should there be any blood from that? The symbiont would simply order the host to swallow it all.

The ability of the nastier-behaving symbionts to suture the entry wound is the more interesting aspect here. It doesn't sound too outworldly to assume that the creature can secrete a substance that quickly coagulates the blood, and/or spider silk -like material to close the wound. The tok'ra beasts would use these abilities on the inner tissues, where the spilling of some blood would go unnoticed; the goa'uld ones would have to make sure their host quickly wipes off any external blood (much like Kowalski appears to do in the pilot, flinging his hand to his neck right after being bitten IIRC).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[matthunter]

This reminds me of Goa'uld from Stargate. The To'Kra good guy symbiants entered through the mouth as it was more civilised and there was no pain. Whereas the evil Goa'uld just bit into the back of the neck and left a painful visible scar.

Not quite correct. Causing pain wasn't the reason the Goa'uld entered through the neck - it was because their hosts were typically unwilling and they didn't want to have to remember the look of horror on their face when a big flying snake tried to force its way into their mouth.

 

[Solarbaby]

This reminds me of Goa'uld from Stargate. The To'Kra good guy symbiants entered through the mouth as it was more civilised and there was no pain. Whereas the evil Goa'uld just bit into the back of the neck and left a painful visible scar.

Not quite correct. Causing pain wasn't the reason the Goa'uld entered through the neck - it was because their hosts were typically unwilling and they didn't want to have to remember the look of horror on their face when a big flying snake tried to force its way into their mouth.

I never meant it was meant to be painful for the sake of being evil. But it would have hurt having the neck bitten and tore open and then have a serpent squeeze inside the wound.