Connor's acting, bad writing -- Trip weeping in Forgotten

[commodore64]

I feel a little like the Trip's death thread got hijacked by folks, including myself, to talk about Connor's acting choices for Forgotten. Since enough people have shown interest in discussing it, maybe it makes sense to start a new thread.

I thought two things: poor acting choice and bad decision on writing.

Bad decision on writing: The writers never, ever let us forget about Lizzie. We knew he was upset and had trouble sleeping (although really never saw that issue, except in Impulse and Archer was up with him), enough to get neuropressure from T'Pol. By never letting us forget that Trip is upset about Lizzie, they lessen the impact of Crewman Taylor/Lizzie's death in The Forgotten. If they'd left things like in The Xindi, where Trip claims her death was no more impactful than anyone else's ... then The Forgotten would've made more sense.

More over, in the arc, I've just seen some scarier things happen to the captain and first officer - without they're plights wrapped up. (And they never get wrapped up.) I honestly felt in Forgotten that Phlox's concern about Trip was misplaced and instead, he should continue providing help to T'Pol (who is coming off a drug addiction and some serious co-dependency) and Archer (who has committed an illegal Starfleet act and has distanced himself from his entire crew, including their support).

Poor acting choice: I felt sorrier for Trip in The Expanse where after wondering about his sister, he simply hangs his head while the others watch Earth on the screen with sadness.

Because they never let us forget Lizzie, the weeping seems melodramatic. And rather than seem like a heartfelt emotional breakdown, Trip's reaction made me wonder if it was a blatant attempt to get attention from T'Pol.

 

[JiNX-01]

Bad decision on writing: The writers never, ever let us forget about Lizzie. We knew he was upset and had trouble sleeping (although really never saw that issue, except in Impulse and Archer was up with him), enough to get neuropressure from T'Pol. By never letting us forget that Trip is upset about Lizzie, they lessen the impact of Crewman Taylor/Lizzie's death in The Forgotten. If they'd left things like in The Xindi, where Trip claims her death was no more impactful than anyone else's ... then The Forgotten would've made more sense.

Actually, I think the bad decision on writing goes to the second season. I didn't even know Trip had a sister until she was dead in The Expanse (incidentally this is where he tells Mal that she was no more important than the other 7 million).

Supposing that by the time of Cogenitor they knew where they were going with the season finale, they could easily have worked in a short "video-letter" from Lizzie: telling him about the great new job she landed with a prestigious architectural firm; she's dating one of Trip's old friends from school (which makes him cringe at the idea of one of his rowdy buddies with his "baby" sister) and teases him a bit about it; a little news about the family; and then she mentions how sorry she is about the cogenitor, that she knows his heart was in the right place and hopes that what happened won't make him afraid to do what's right next time.

This would have given us a human being to care about. Seeing the connection between them -- shared affection, closeness (when Trip was hurting about the cogenitor, he told her); her enthusiasm for her career and and being in love; her kindness with Trip. She's not just his baby sister, she's his friend.

More over, in the arc, I've just seen some scarier things happen to the captain and first officer - without they're plights wrapped up. (And they never get wrapped up.) I honestly felt in Forgotten that Phlox's concern about Trip was misplaced and instead, he should continue providing help to T'Pol (who is coming off a drug addiction and some serious co-dependency) and Archer (who has committed an illegal Starfleet act and has distanced himself from his entire crew, including their support).

Phlox knows that Trip isn't sleeping. At all. He created a clone and murdered him to save Trip's life because Archer insisted that he needed Tucker to complete the mission. If Trip doesn't sleep, Trip dies, leaving Archer without his chief engineer after all. And how effective can Trip be without rest?

T'Pol isn't going to die from withdrawal from trellium (Phlox's bigger offense in this matter, IMO, is that he didn't advise the captain that she was not in full control of her faculties. To heck with HIPPA, this was an issue that could affect the safety of the ship and the success of the mission.)

As for Archer's actions in the Expanse, the time to deal with that was in "Home." And except for what happened in Impulse, pretty much everything else was ignored.

Poor acting choice: I felt sorrier for Trip in The Expanse where after wondering about his sister, he simply hangs his head while the others watch Earth on the screen with sadness.

Actually I just figured Trip couldn't bear to look.

Because they never let us forget Lizzie, the weeping seems melodramatic.

I don't get this at all. First of all, why would you want them to "let us forget Lizzie?" And why would you want to forget her?
Besides, it's not like she's comes up in every single episode. Most episodes in Season 3 she isn't even mentioned.

As for the melodrama, how else does someone deal with grief? He's tried anger. He's tried denial. He's tried focusing on the mission. He's tried hating the Xindi. What the hell is left?

Circumstances had forced Trip to face what he lost. And it's not like there were histrionics. It's not like he was wailing and keening. It's not like he collapsed into T'Pol's arms and sobbed.

All he did was cry. An entirely appropriate emotional release.

And rather than seem like a heartfelt emotional breakdown, Trip's reaction made me wonder if it was a blatant attempt to get attention from T'Pol.

Right. Because he was desperate for attention from someone with whom he was getting VNP sessions every night. And had slept with just a few episodes before. And they hardly ever worked together in engineering during this mission.

It's like T'Pol didn't even know he was a alive.

 

[Nimthim]

Agree much with some of comments about the writing - the writers essentially put themselves in a corner with those issues concerning Archer and T'Pol. If Starfleet shines a light on those actions, serious, career ending consequences would follow. So how could they follow through with those plotlines in any believable manner without sacrificing two of the main characters? I suspect that viewers were expected to forget those issues and not wish there was some resolution.
On the other hand, they also do poorly quite often with the grief issue. Of course that is a reflection of reality - we have strangely ambiguous and conflicting reactions to those experiencing grief. And many of our reactions and actions in dealing with our grief are as unpredictable and individual as we are. In the context of this episode, this scene didn't seem melodramatic. Not an uncommon reaction when a final straw splinters the iron control one is trying to maintain.
Was it necessary? And did the writer's use Lizzie's death too much? I think again it was lazy writing - they needed the efficient, pulled together engineer to advance the Xindi story, but didn't want him to seem to recover because they also seemed to want a personal focus of vengeance against the Xindi. And this episode did sort of wrap up Tucker's issues with Lizzie's death. And not quite as strangely as Archer having sex with Hernandez clears up all his issues with his actions in the Expanse. I thought that was a real convenient bit of writing.

 

[suebsg9]

Can I just say "The Forgotten" has become one of my fav eps because of the fact it kinda wraps up the Lizzie stuff finally. And don't mean finally in a bad way but for Trip to finally be able to let his sis go. I mean since the season started it seemed like the only ones who knew Trip was having trouble sleeping where Phlox and Tpol. I mean Archer don't get me started there; dark Archer was just not appealing but made Trip grow more I think what he xperienced throughout the S3 and S4!

I enjoyed the fact that Tpol was concerned that Trip had not slept for two days and went off to tell Phlox and order him to sleep even though you know he can't cause of the nightmares and I thought it intresting in the nightmare to meet Taylor and have her remind him of what he should say in the letter. I thought that scene was great; I mean we got to meet Taylor. And then after his sleep or lack of it he is repairing something and Degra is there; now for me I think he should have been able to let Degra know that there was someone that was effected or affected sorry not sure which one to use; me bad. But someone who lost someone due to the weapon he created; I didn't like the fact that Tpol and Archer shut him down; its like I think Degra wouldn't have not given up what him and Archer were doing but at least meeting someone who was angry and hurt cause of what the weapon did; and again enjoyed the fact that Tpol went looking for Trip when he finally broke down that he did need Taylor to fix something cause thats what she was good at; and he finally got a clue at the crew members lost and finally broke down and how he has been holding it in for 9 months the anger and such; the breakdown scene was perfect cause he did remember crew that were lost and sis also. So much death for what?

Like I said this is one of my fav eps cause of those reasons like I said Archer apologizing to Degra about what Trip said; that ticked me off; Degra seemed to me he could sympathise; thats why in the Council when Degra and Trip worked together I am glad they finally were able to get things out cause that was a long time coming. No Archer just the two of them.

And Connors acting through out his grieving of Lizzie was spot on; I mean to me Connor grew into that role he wasn't that wide eyed officer we see in the eps starting the show; by S3 and S4 and sorry if off topic he just took off and made Trip so much a better character season after season. I don't think there was any bad writing in the Forgotten like I said Archer never seemed to be there for Trip its like Phlox and Malcolm and Tpol where his friends there when he needed them.

Sorry tend to babble and such but hopefully get what I was trying to say; you ever try to think what you want to say and then seem to go on and on; well thats me in a nut shell

 

[MattJC]

I just assumed the neuro-pressure sessions helped Trip focus on the job at hand, but Degra helping the crew just brought all that emotion back to the surface.

 

[angie]

I agree with commie about The Expanse.CT's choices were dead on and packed a punch. I think it among his best on ENT.The grief and anger rolled off him in waves. It was also very real.His shortness with Malcolm was another well done scene.

As for the writing Lizzie was a plot device at best for most of season 3. They had Trip easy diverted from anger and grief way too soon for me. I realize they were trying to avoid fix it sex diversion which they didn't IMO.They should have had him be angry at finding any happiness.That would have been not only more interesting dramatically but more in character.

There was gossip from various sources that CT went to the bosses to argue for his choices against the directors/writers a few times. One has to wonder........

 

[suebsg9]

I just assumed the neuro-pressure sessions helped Trip focus on the job at hand, but Degra helping the crew just brought all that emotion back to the surface.

I got the idea they were helping but he did come part of the insominac group as Archer referred to Trip and Tpol so I got feeling maybe they were helping but not so much that he did at time do other things to get away from sleeping.

But I think at times the old Trip came back in eps when he talked about getting movie night going again.

I think its hard to say whether or not helping but Tpol and Phlox seem to been there as well as Malcolm to help him through his sisters death.

 

[MattJC]

I just assumed the neuro-pressure sessions helped Trip focus on the job at hand, but Degra helping the crew just brought all that emotion back to the surface.

I got the idea they were helping but he did come part of the insominac group as Archer referred to Trip and Tpol so I got feeling maybe they were helping but not so much that he did at time do other things to get away from sleeping.

But I think at times the old Trip came back in eps when he talked about getting movie night going again.

I think its hard to say whether or not helping but Tpol and Phlox seem to been there as well as Malcolm to help him through his sisters death.

You might be right. I'll have to rewatch this season again.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

Can I just say "The Forgotten" has become one of my fav eps because of the fact it kinda wraps up the Lizzie stuff finally. And don't mean finally in a bad way but for Trip to finally be able to let his sis go. I mean since the season started it seemed like the only ones who knew Trip was having trouble sleeping where Phlox and Tpol.
I enjoyed the fact that Tpol was concerned that Trip had not slept for two days and went off to tell Phlox and order him to sleep even though you know he can't cause of the nightmares and I thought it intresting in the nightmare to meet Taylor and have her remind him of what he should say in the letter. I thought that scene was great; I mean we got to meet Taylor. And then after his sleep or lack of it he is repairing something and Degra is there; and again enjoyed the fact that Tpol went looking for Trip when he finally broke down that he did need Taylor to fix something cause thats what she was good at; and he finally got a clue at the crew members lost and finally broke down and how he has been holding it in for 9 months the anger and such; the breakdown scene was perfect cause he did remember crew that were lost and sis also. So much death for what?

And Connors acting through out his grieving of Lizzie was spot on; I mean to me Connor grew into that role he wasn't that wide eyed officer we see in the eps starting the show; by S3 and S4 and sorry if off topic he just took off and made Trip so much a better character season after season.

Nicely put Suebsg9.

I agree, The Forgotten was a great episode played beautifully by Connor, who showed and dealt with Trip's grief very realistically and touchingly in the way he expressed his repressed feelings.

It would have been nice if they had introduced Lizzie before hand in Season 2 but I felt they touched upon her just enough in Season 3 in the way her death was affecting Trip - The Expanse, Anomoly, Extinction, Impulse, Similtude, Proving Groud, Harbinger and finally The Forgotten.

 

[angie]

I would have liked to have seen the edgy Trip--with someone else suggesting movie night and Trip rejecting it instead of crew morale officer Trip of seasons 1 and 2.I think having Trip sustain the anger or at least have it flare up more regularly than just when the plot required it would have been more interesting.Since the focus of the story is not Trip this would have been easier to maintain than the course they chose.

 

[Nimthim]

I would have liked to have seen the edgy Trip--with someone else suggesting movie night and Trip rejecting it instead of crew morale officer Trip of seasons 1 and 2.I think having Trip sustain the anger or at least have it flare up more regularly than just when the plot required it would have been more interesting.Since the focus of the story is not Trip this would have been easier to maintain than the course they chose.

Yes, it would have been much less cliched, and more meaningful, to have Tucker's anger manifest at his friends and in everyday situations (as in the scene with Malcolm in The Expanse) as opposed to making him the anger spear carrier against the Xindi when the plot required that. The insomnia and dreams are a realistic manifestation of grief - especially for someone trying to almost completely control the emotion, so I don't think they are necessarily a bad choice of symptoms.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

I agree, I think the insomnia and nightmares were more realistic for someone trying to maintain control during this dangerous mission. Trip was a professional and a commander, so he would now that to do his job properly. In order to do that he would have to maintain some semblence of control and emotion.

The anger in the Expanse was realistic, in that it was a situation had just found out and he was beginning to grieve. Dragging that out and having it flare up would have been unrealistic for the kind of person he was - putting his work first and helping others, while hiding his own pain and emotions at the same time.

 

[angie]

I never said the dreams and insomnia were not realistic but they too became weak plot devices. The np was created for an obvious reason and the Trip's dream in the Forgotten was well done.Alot of the scripts have Archer and T'Pol discussing Trip's state of mind in a line or 2 which worked better for me than having eps where season 1 or 2 Trip appeared. I know people can put on a good face etc. but this is drama and a openly angry Trip in contrast to a tightly reined in Archer would have made for a sustained intensity to really move the Xindi arc along better than the haphazard way it was done.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I thought it was perfectly fine as it was, making a good season and a nice set up for Season 4. Trip wasn't the type of character who could come across as openingly angry on a constant basis. It would have been unrealistic to what we knew of his nature or character.

I think the Arch moved along nicely as it was done.

 

[Nimthim]

My problem with the anger as written is that it is produced to provide the vengeance point of view when desired and then pretty much ignored. As such, it gets predictable. And you don't see any real progression of Tucker coming to terms with it. Then it gets snatched away from him when Degra becomes an ally and yet again he must suppress it all.
I think there is a certain truth in the neuropressure in that the touch of another can have a tremendous healing effect. And some of that can be seen in the more comfortable friendship that develops between Tucker and T'Pol. Wherever else that plotline led, it is the closest Tucker got to having a friend to understand.
Like everyone else I view entertainment through the eyes of my life experience, and my reaction to killing Lizzie so soon after the Cogenitor suicide was to think how much do they want this character to take. So, OK, we learn the Cogenitor's suicide was nothing more than a dramatic plot device in one episode, never to be mentioned again. But as someone who is living in the aftermath of suicide, I see this story arc as heaping more and more emotional weight on someone who already has some deep issues, because in reality, you can't dismiss things that easily. Then of course, there is the clone - watch your own funeral, in essence???
There really needed to be a continuing theme of Tucker's issues with his sister's death - and the rest - but I guess we can regret that it was not explored in any more than a superficial way and instead just seems annoying to some. The Forgotten comes closest to giving glimpses of the crew's weariness and pain and some of the depths of Tucker's grief. At this point, I think T'Pol understands her touch can be comforting, and again, I think those few tears are natural and rather understated.

 

[Bak_and_Blue]

I dunno, I'm having a bit of a hard time remembering which emotional moment this was... when Trip was writing a memorial to a dead sub-ordinate's parents, right?

I always thought his grief/crying was in character and appropriate. I like that Trip cried. I always thought that Archer should have shed a tear or two at certain times but either the writers or Bakula must have thought that would have show too much weakness or something.

Trip's vulnerability made him more human and likeable to me. And, I think that it was the right response for that particular moment. He was falling (had fallen) in love with T'Pol and who else could he break down to. It illustrated/deepened their bond IMO.

 

[suebsg9]

My problem with the anger as written is that it is produced to provide the vengeance point of view when desired and then pretty much ignored. As such, it gets predictable. And you don't see any real progression of Tucker coming to terms with it. Then it gets snatched away from him when Degra becomes an ally and yet again he must suppress it all.
I think there is a certain truth in the neuropressure in that the touch of another can have a tremendous healing effect. And some of that can be seen in the more comfortable friendship that develops between Tucker and T'Pol. Wherever else that plotline led, it is the closest Tucker got to having a friend to understand.
Like everyone else I view entertainment through the eyes of my life experience, and my reaction to killing Lizzie so soon after the Cogenitor suicide was to think how much do they want this character to take. So, OK, we learn the Cogenitor's suicide was nothing more than a dramatic plot device in one episode, never to be mentioned again. But as someone who is living in the aftermath of suicide, I see this story arc as heaping more and more emotional weight on someone who already has some deep issues, because in reality, you can't dismiss things that easily. Then of course, there is the clone - watch your own funeral, in essence???
There really needed to be a continuing theme of Tucker's issues with his sister's death - and the rest - but I guess we can regret that it was not explored in any more than a superficial way and instead just seems annoying to some. The Forgotten comes closest to giving glimpses of the crew's weariness and pain and some of the depths of Tucker's grief. At this point, I think T'Pol understands her touch can be comforting, and again, I think those few tears are natural and rather understated.

I think as fans you always hope that the writers would do follow up of sorts to something; I think the only time they followed stuff and not left a long distance between stuff that happend when when the Xindi attacked Enterprise and you got those eps that rans back to back to back. But otherwise its like they don't ever show a follow up of sorts to something you would have liked to seen how the whole Congenitor thing did but strain on Trip and ARchers friendship yes it shows they still hung out at times but you could tell things changed. And yes the writers should have talked about Lizzie loong before she all of sudden is mentioned as living in Florida and part of the death toll of the weapons attack. But see writers don't think of the follow up stuff and as a fan of a show you wish they would; you wish they could show Trip not handling his sis death not well; yes certain eps you could see it otherwise it was just natural him and Tpol get together for the neuropressure sessions.

But there are certain times in my book the writers hit the nail on the head as well as the actor hitting his mark; and with Forgotten I think they did; I am glad that they let at times Trip take his frustration out on Degra and again in The Council. I mean he felt anger for this man who created the weapon; I hated the fact that Archer shut him down. And I was also glad to see as I said before Taylor we got to see a face of one of the dead actually saying to Trip about what he is writing to her parents I mean you could tell she respected Trip; and at the end it was nice to hear the letter he wrote and then also his good bye to his sis. So Forgotten to me is an really good eps. But I am enjoying the fact a discussion is going on about it and there are some good things being said that makes me think. But I always notice one thing that fans do that the writers never do; is write scenes in fan fiction they would have liked to have seen and I thank those fan fic writers for those follow ups Makes up for what was not seen.

 

[commodore64]

Jinx, I agree Trip couldn't bear to look at the planet and also was grief-stricken in the Expanse. Both were great choices by Connor. I actually liked everyone's reactions. All seemed good and the fact Trip was the only one not looking made his reaction more powerful, to me.

I don't get this at all. First of all, why would you want them to "let us forget Lizzie?" And why would you want to forget her? Besides, it's not like she's comes up in every single episode. Most episodes in Season 3 she isn't even mentioned.

Why should we forget? Because in the Forgotten (part of the reason the episode is named thus - the people who had died had been forgotten, including his sister), Trip is supposed to "finally" comes to grip with his sister. By mentioning her and/or his reaction in so many episodes they negate that idea that he's "finally" coming to grips.

Trip mentions her in the following: Expanse, Xindi, Anomaly, Rajiin, Extinction, Impulse, Twilight (in this he's angry), Harbinger, Azati Prime and then Forgotten. There might be more, this is just off the top of my head.

As for the melodrama, how else does someone deal with grief? He's tried anger. He's tried denial.

I guess that's my point. I haven't seen him really deny it or that he has problems with it since The Xindi. As for someone showing grief, I think crying is appropriate, but ... Trip has been dealing with it the entire season. Him deciding to cry in this episode felt like, "Hey, you've been upset for nearly a year."

He's tried focusing on the mission. He's tried hating the Xindi. What the hell is left?

I haven't seen him try focusing on the mission, and by this I mean seen it. I've heard he has trouble sleeping, but really never got a chance to see it. When I do, I saw other people have been staying up, too like Reed or Archer. It made it harder to swallow. Maybe showing Trip staying through a shift change and Archer - just having gotten up - drop by would've made me think, "Wow - he's dedicated."

Worse, I saw Archer was always up, too, but without the constant "Oh, poor Archer, you need some sleep." This made me respect Archer more. I hate when characters go, "Oh, you poor baby." Our heroes are heroes, grown-ups, not children who need mothering after all. Besides, it increases my sympathy.

I liked when Trip hated the Xindi in Twilight, but haven't seen him really hate the Xindi since the episode the Xindi and then in Forgotten now that he has to face one (Degra). (Why didn't he act that way in Stratagem?)

I agree with Angie and Nimthim above that it would've made the character more interesting and his grief all the more worthy near the end of the season.

Circumstances had forced Trip to face what he lost. And it's not like there were histrionics. It's not like he was wailing and keening. It's not like he collapsed into T'Pol's arms and sobbed.

He kicked the whatever can down the corridor. And I don't recall him falling into T'Pol's arms. I recall she put a hand on his shoulder as he continued to say, "She was my baby sister."

Right. Because he was desperate for attention from someone with whom he was getting VNP sessions every night.

Not at this point. At this point, T'Pol was off the drugs and had distanced herself from Trip, without any real explanation of why or what had changed.

 

[JiNX-01]

I always thought his grief/crying was in character and appropriate. I like that Trip cried. I always thought that Archer should have shed a tear or two at certain times but either the writers or Bakula must have thought that would have show too much weakness or something.

Actually, he has tears in his eyes when he talks to Trip at the decon window in Observer Effect. It was a very powerful and affecting moment.

 

[suebsg9]

I always thought his grief/crying was in character and appropriate. I like that Trip cried. I always thought that Archer should have shed a tear or two at certain times but either the writers or Bakula must have thought that would have show too much weakness or something.

Actually, he has tears in his eyes when he talks to Trip at the decon window in Observer Effect. It was a very powerful and affecting moment.

I agree Observer Effect gave me a new light into the Trip/Archer friendship I mean they had their ups and downs and always wondered can you be friends but still work together. I mean Trip can be friends with Hoshi, Tpol, Malcolm, Phlox and Travis very easily cause they are collegues but the friendship with Archer skated at times and I think in this eps showed there was still the friendship there. I really want to start a thread to talk about that but yes nice to see Archer showing emotion I almost thought he forgot how to cause he kept up such a stern front the whole time they were in the xpanse it was like Trip was the one who wore his emotion on his sleeve as they like to say.