Conduct of Captain Maxwell's Crew in "The Wounded"

[Mojochi]

Maxwell was a hothead with no game plan on a revenge trip. How did he think his lethal little jaunt was going to wind up even if he did all he wanted to do?

He didn't think. I thought that was the pretty clear conclusion of the episode. He was driven to bad choices by being emotionally & psychologically compromised. He wasn't a hothead. He was a broken man.

There's not a chance in hell that Starfleet would have let Maxwell go free to fight in the Dominion War. I don't care how badly the war was going, you do NOT want a nutbar like that in command of a starship. At ANY time. If he can't be trusted to follow the law and his orders, how can you trust him in battle?

You don't... You just send him in to die, with other expendables, like I suggested above. I'm sure he knows how to get the killing job done, & as long as he's not a total basket case, over the slaughter of his family, you can't really ignore that kind of asset, if the war is going badly, imho. The Expendables theory is plausible, if you ask me, as is the possibility of Maqui Recruitment

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's not enough that Maxwell knows how to kill. We all know he does. The important thing is, does he know when NOT to kill?

 

[Mojochi]

It's not enough that Maxwell knows how to kill. We all know he does. The important thing is, does he know when NOT to kill?

That's why I say you don't trust him. You don't give him that option or responsibility. You can only use him when you send him somewhere that people need to die, whatever the cost

 

[Jedman67]

You only need the main cast to successfully run a ship. All the guest and recurring actors and actresses are completely expendable.

 

[DonIago]

That's why I say you don't trust him. You don't give him that option or responsibility. You can only use him when you send him somewhere that people need to die, whatever the cost

I don't think the Federation Council would really support the formation of a Suicide Squad.

 

[Paradise City]

Nice to think Maxwell got a handle on his demons in the end. He seemed a good egg fundamentally.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't think the Federation Council would really support the formation of a Suicide Squad.

Probably not, but I bet Sisko wouldn't have a problem with it lol. I mean personally I never cared for all that DS9 war stuff. I don't tune into Star Trek for that, but if you're gonna go into dark Trek with all this war stuff, then you might as well go for broke & get dirty

 

[DonIago]

It sounds like something S31 would do while obscuring the fact that they were the ones doing it. Claiming to be Starfleet Intelligence or such the whole time.

 

[Timo]

I don't see major problems with Maxwell doing what he did, technically speaking. I mean, it's pretty much standard procedure for starship captains to challenge their adversaries, and to end up in firefights of all sorts. The one thing different with Cardassians was that they appeared to enjoy exceptional political protection at the time: it was strategically beneficial to placate them into not attacking when Starfleet was having a weak moment. Maxwell disagreed with the strategy, and used tactical means to force a policy change. And lo, he succeeded... Kirk did quite a bit of that, too.

That the Cardassians were wimps militarily was a refreshing concept that the later episodes and an entire spinoff show followed rather faithfully. Indeed, this was pretty much the whole point: in the backstory, they are credited with raiding colonies when they can't fight wars, in their next dastardly appearance they kidnap and torture individuals to give better odds for their sneak invasion which Starfleet confidently prepares to take on at 15:1 odds; in DS9 they are tormenting a planet of monks and farmers, but have to give up even that one; and ultimately they get more or less driven to surrender by a bunch of frontier terrorists (but they choose to surrender to folks who give them bigger guns and make them a credible military threat for the very first time). It's with folks like these who can't understand they were defeated before they even started that Starfleet would have the most difficulty with. They can't keep every Cardassian wimpship under constant surveillance, so there's always a colony or a shipment at risk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I'm sorry, when exactly did Kirk fire first in a situation where he was within the known borders of another power?

 

[Mojochi]

Back on the topic of Maxwell's crew. This whole thing makes me wonder why Starfleet would ever be willing to grant the latitude in selecting executive officers solely to ship captains, if historically speaking, the idea of an XO is to counterbalance the command structure.

I mean, if it takes 2 or 3 officers to agree upon setting the auto-destruct, then clearly, you'd want those people to be differently minded people, and leaving the full right of selecting the XO solely to the captain's discretion, in the way Picard, Pressman or maybe Jellico get, kind of negates the point, if they can just choose a yes man

Picard may have been savvy enough to see the benefit of an XO who'd oppose him & stand his ground, but most others might not, & that doesn't seem like a risk you should take with such an arsenal

 

[Nakita Akita]

In the episode "The Wounded", Capt Benjamin Maxwell, a highly respected starship captain apparently turns renegade and begins destroying Cardassian bases and vessels. He apparently justifies it not because he was attacked first but that he was engaging in preemptive attacks on Cardassia as they are preparing for war and he had to act because no one else would. Also it is clear that part of it was driven by deep anti-Cardassian hostility as they killed his family in the prior Federation-Cardassian War.

This led me to thinking, how is it that the crew would so willingly follow such orders? And shouldn't most of the crew have been court-martialed along with Maxwell?

Imagine Picard decided to go around doing something like this. Its hard to believe that Picard's crew would just blindly follow along. I would think at the very least, Riker would object and contact Starfleet who would then countermand Picard's attempted actions. Why didn't Maxwell's officers do that? Why didn't they mutiny like the crew of Pressman did back then on the Pegasus?

(Also I am wondering if in real life history, has anything like this ever happened? That is a commanding officer of a vessel or a large military contingent just went rogue like this with all his subordinates just following along???)

I think it would be something more like he kept the crew in the dark or just lied to them about what was going on.
Maybe he told them a war was going on now and this was their orders from the admirals.
Then he orders "radio silence" no communication with anyone not on the ship, and it just goes from there.
I could see it happening.

 

[Timo]

I'm sorry, when exactly did Kirk fire first in a situation where he was within the known borders of another power?

Ah, for example in the very first regular episode of Star Trek ever to be filmed.

As for lying to the crew, well, Kirk gives us a textbook example of how it could go in "The Enterprise Incident". And it's a double whammy: not only do we learn that the crew would go along with the lie, but the crew learns that there was noble cause (and legitimate orders from on high, at least for a given value of legitimate if you don't sweat acts of war and all that) behind the lie and they did the right thing after all. After the incident, I couldn't easily see the crew not following seemingly outrageous orders.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Scotchy]

Also I am wondering if in real life history, has anything like this ever happened?

Sure. For just some of the examples read Marc Baker's Nam.
https://www.amazon.com/Nam-Vietnam-...93339&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=Nam+by+Marc+Baker

 

[Prax]

I'm not sure we have enough of the facts. Perhaps Maxwell told his crew that they were assigned to go check out this outpost. Maybe they were fired upon and retaliated overkill. We know Macet was lying about those "innocent" Cardassians. The Admiral said that Starfleet was too weak to risk a war. If SF were in a better position, would they have a different strategy for the Cardassian border? Maxwell may have been applying the same ROE that was in place during the war.

What war, you say?

Oh, the bloody bloody Cardassian War of course. The one that was going on all through seasons 1-3 of TNG

 

[DonIago]

Ah, for example in the very first regular episode of Star Trek ever to be filmed.

Please be more specific. If you're referring to "The Corbomite Maneuver", Kirk doesn't open fire on the cube until it's emitting harmful radiation while the E is already backing away. The cube's already won at that point. Not much different than the Jem'hadar suicide attack on Odyssey.

If that's not what you're referring to...then as I said, please be more specific.

 

[Timo]

Naah, you nailed it in one. Starfleet is portrayed pseudo-realistically in TOS as sometimes engaging in deliberate aggression in the name of diplomacy, sometimes holding back for the very same reason. In "Corbomite" and "Spectre of the Gun", Kirk has orders to break in, guns blazing; in "Balance of Terror" he has to mind his every step; in "A Taste of Armageddon", he is but a chauffeur to a diplomat who calls all the shots until emergency protocol applies, at which point it's guns on hot again.

This is not a contradiction. Different opponents no doubt require different treatment in order for the diplomacy to be effective. Kirk's standing orders seem to err on the side of reckless violence rather than caution, though, as he engages the First Federation territorial defenses without knowing of them in advance or having specific direct orders. But he very much chooses guns over retreat, while freely admitting to being in violation of a territorial claim.

Would Maxwell's crew have a reason to believe in a different set of standing orders? The Cardassians are the enemy; news of interaction with them requiring the velvet gloves now might not have reached anybody but the starship COs, because it should be a big secret that Starfleet is suffering from strategic weaknesses in the region and for that reason pussyfooting around.

Not much different than the Jem'hadar suicide attack on Odyssey.

The Jem'Hadar wanted for the big starship to die yet for the runabout witnesses to retreat. Nothing was stopping Kirk from retreating - all his maneuvering commands referred to trying to get past the cube, rather than going back to where they came from, after all. That the cube would give chase should hardly be taken as sign of blocking retreat, then.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't think the Federation Council would really support the formation of a Suicide Squad.

No, but as noted up thread, it's very much in character for Section 31 to approach Maxwell.

 

[DonIago]

Naah, you nailed it in one. Starfleet is portrayed pseudo-realistically in TOS as sometimes engaging in deliberate aggression in the name of diplomacy, sometimes holding back for the very same reason. In "Corbomite" and "Spectre of the Gun", Kirk has orders to break in, guns blazing; in "Balance of Terror" he has to mind his every step; in "A Taste of Armageddon", he is but a chauffeur to a diplomat who calls all the shots until emergency protocol applies, at which point it's guns on hot again.

This is not a contradiction. Different opponents no doubt require different treatment in order for the diplomacy to be effective. Kirk's standing orders seem to err on the side of reckless violence rather than caution, though, as he engages the First Federation territorial defenses without knowing of them in advance or having specific direct orders. But he very much chooses guns over retreat, while freely admitting to being in violation of a territorial claim.

Would Maxwell's crew have a reason to believe in a different set of standing orders? The Cardassians are the enemy; news of interaction with them requiring the velvet gloves now might not have reached anybody but the starship COs, because it should be a big secret that Starfleet is suffering from strategic weaknesses in the region and for that reason pussyfooting around.



The Jem'Hadar wanted for the big starship to die yet for the runabout witnesses to retreat. Nothing was stopping Kirk from retreating - all his maneuvering commands referred to trying to get past the cube, rather than going back to where they came from, after all. That the cube would give chase should hardly be taken as sign of blocking retreat, then.

Timo Saloniemi

From Wikipedia's plot summary of the episode (as I haven't seen it in a long time): "Chief Engineer Scott cannot explain how the cube works. A nervous and inexperienced Bailey advocates attacking it with phasers. Kirk instead orders the ship to back away from the object. The cube comes even closer and emits harmful radiation and Kirk reluctantly destroys it."

I don't read that as Kirk being particularly aggressive or willing to fire first. Rather, to me it reads as self-defense. I suppose the natural counter-argument is "Why didn't he warp away then?" to which the counter-counter argument would be "The cube wouldn't allow it or would outrun them." Again, just going from the above summation.

As far as Maxwell's crew goes, I think it's essentially an unknown without us having any more information to work with, and an unfortunate plot point.

The WP plot summary contradicts your claim that Kirk was trying to get past the cube, so either the summary is wrong or you are.

 

[Kor]

Maxwell was the only person we ever actually saw on the Phoenix, and the only other person we heard about in dialog was the First Officer.

So I propose that Maxwell and his First Officer had dropped everyone off ahead of time and were running the ship all by themselves with automated functions.



Kor