Complaints about humanizing Spock

[DevilEyes]

Isn't the idea more so human culture rather than biology though? Like it doesn't matter if he's even full human, he could be raised under Vulcan culture. I think that's the general idea behind the OP is that they think he's culturally different. I don't really agree with that though.

And it's not really true since he grew up with an emotional Human mother. It's not like he didn't have any contact with Human culture, in fact he probably had more than Worf had with Klingon culture during his formative years.

 

[Ryan8bit]

And it's not really true since he grew up with an emotional Human mother. It's not like he didn't have any contact with Human culture, in fact he probably had more than Worf had with Klingon culture during his formative years.

Probably, especially since his dad was the Federation ambassador. But even with humans around, it's still quite possible to be raised culturally Vulcan. This happens with children who have parents of different religions quite often.

 

[UFO]

If his mind were working fine before that, he would have seen the stunningly obvious, that rendezvousing with the fleet in the Laurentian system would have certainly doomed Earth. He appeared composed, but he was very much compromised.

Yes he realised that but it was a no win situation. Given their resources at that stage, Earth was obviously doomed what ever they did. I thought everyone was on the same page with this? I would like to make one correction though. Spock obviously wouldn't have "laughed it off". He would have treated it with the distain something that obvious deserved (well he should have done so).

And yet he was as calm and logical as ever after Vulcan's destruction and his mother's death, except when he had to throw Kirk off the ship for plotting reasons of course.

So you kind of missed the whole point of what Old Spock was talking about and what was going on during that entire part of the movie.

Not at all. It was clear they needed an excuse for Kirk to take over the Enterprise instead of sharing the information and new technology he found, with his commander as he should have, without looking like a complete jerk. SpockP to the rescue, that's all.

And yet he was as calm and logical as ever after Vulcan's destruction and his mother's death, except when he had to throw Kirk off the ship for plotting reasons of course.

There's no "plotting reason" for that, since the Enterprise has a perfectly good brig. It was a surprisingly irrational decision that doesn't make sense until we consider how incredibly pissed off Spock was in general.

The "plotting reason" I referred to was the need to get Kirk off the ship in order to meet SpockP and Scotty and pick up the Nero busting beaming technology and of course an excuse for taking command. I would say that given how rational Spock was before that, exiling Kirk doesn't make sense without considering the requirements of the badly strained plot. But I doubt we’ll agree on that.

Spock is part Vulcan and has received years of emotion control training. So why do people persist in trying to justify his behaviour as being the sort of thing Joe Human would do?

Because:
1) He's half human,

Which cold make him more amiable to Vulcan training for all we know.

and partly raised by a human mother.

True, but its seems like she would have to arrive at an understanding regarding her influence, otherwise she would be constantly undermining Vulcan teaching.

2) The MOVIE justifies his behavior in the bully scene. You can insult Spock 35 times and he'll just shrug it off, but the first time you mention his mother, he'll stomp you like a cockroach.

Actually the MOVIE only relates how young Spock is upset by the other kids calling his father a traitor. He doesn't mention his mother.

Don't worry, reasonable conversation doesn't bug me. You actually make a good point. But Vulcans are also arguably better at controlling their emotions, meaning Spock wouldn't be as skilled as most Vulcans.

Do you mean they are better at controlling their emotions before getting any training? In that case why do the need the training? My suggestion is humans might do better than Vulcans if socialised in the same way.

But Spock's Berserk Button has always been insulting his mother, which is obviously something he has never even bothered to control. You insult that boy's mama and he will END you.

Hmmm, I wonder how often that actually happen (not the ENDing bit)?

How can anyone complain about something "humanizing" Spock? Spock is half-human!

Fairly easily actually. He used to act as you would expect a Vulcan to most of the time. Even a fair number of people who like the movie would accept that is far less the case here, or so it seems to me, even if they would claim extenuating circumstances. So there has to be something to it. On top of that we have two example of people actually trying to humanise him (his father) and make him less logical (SpockP).

One was 'everyone knows Spock doesn't show emotion.

The fact so many think that, shows how important it is. And why his usual behaviour shouldn’t be undermined in my view.

Spock shows emotion often. He is half-human, which is a fundamental part of his character.

But that seems to argue for a genetic interpretation of the emotional difference between humans and Vulcans. If all that stands between the two species is cultural conditioning (which is an idea I am getting used to) then as I have suggested, being half or all human is not necessarily going to making him more emotional.

 

[Vincent Law]

I think what really sets the movie portrayal apart from TOS in this area is the bullying. In TOS Amanda mentioned that Spock was bullied but did his best not to react to it, but that she knew he was hurting inside because of it, suggesting that while none of the other Vulcans could read him, she could. In the movie Spock loses it and physically attacks one of the bullies.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

True, but its seems like she would have to arrive at an understanding regarding her influence, otherwise she would be constantly undermining Vulcan teaching.

She may not have a choice. Parents don't always get to pick and choose how their actions influence their children, nor can they always control what their children learn from watching them (I found out the hard way that my hyper-observant two-year-old son has been watching me operate the DVD player long enough to figure out that button #5 usually has "Elmo's World" in the caddy).

Amanda would be undermining Vulcan influence just by virtue of not acting like a Vulcan, by handling things in a human way, and thus setting examples for Spock to follow. Spock was VERY close to her, so close that he even consulted her on advice about which path to choose in life. Furthermore, unless she's some sort of displaced war orphan, Spock would have human relatives and cousins on Earth who would also have had an influence.

Actually the MOVIE only relates how young Spock is upset by the other kids calling his father a traitor. He doesn't mention his mother.

I believe his exact words are "He's a traitor you know... for marrying her. That human whore."

Hmmm, I wonder how often that actually happen (not the ENDing bit)?

Probably pretty rarely. I would expect after his little display at school most of the other boys decided it was probably safer NOT to provoke an emotional response.

Fairly easily actually. He used to act as you would expect a Vulcan to most of the time.

Since Spock was the only Vulcan we had ever met, what exactly were our expectations of how a Vulcan would act? Indeed, the first time we see him acting TRULY Vulcan is in TMP after he's spent several years studying the Kholinar; everyone on the ship notices how out of character this is for him, and by the end of the movie he's finally back to normal, even sheds a tear for V'ger, laughs at himself for not realizing that V'ger is a living machine, and openly expresses his friendship for Kirk in sickbay saying "Jim, this simple feeling is beyond V'ger's comprehension."

The point, in this case, is that Spock has a mixed relationship with his Vulcan heritage as well as emotional control. He tries as hard as he can to be fully Vulcan but he cannot really be himself unless he takes his human half into account too.

Because, after all, he ISN'T fully Vulcan, he is also half human.

The fact so many think that, shows how important it is.

So many people think that Kirk is a swaggering womanizer and yet he never got his rocks off in all six of the TOS movies. Does that mean Kirk is acting out of character?

But that seems to argue for a genetic interpretation of the emotional difference between humans and Vulcans. If all that stands between the two species is cultural conditioning (which is an idea I am getting used to) then as I have suggested, being half or all human is not necessarily going to making him more emotional.

Being half human means that half of his family is also human. Genetics or not, THAT is not something that can be wished away.

OTOH, self-identity is a factor as well. Young Spock even tells his father "You presume that I should be fully Vulcan, and yet you married a human woman..."

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

My point was that it's a fallacy to say that Spock never shows emotion. It's NOT true. Just because people think it's true doesn't mean it's true. He is NOT a solely logical being, just like Kirk is not solely a womanizer. Again, in my opinion, he doesn't act much more human in general in NuTrek than in TOS. The exceptions are justified by the fact that he's younger and by the fact that NERO KILLED HIS ENTIRE PLANET!

When I say Vulcans are better at controlling emotions...maybe I should have said they're better at conditioning their minds. The Vulcan mind is very complex and in some ways far stronger than the human mind, so when a Vulcan puts his mind to it, he can control himself far better than a human can. It's not natural for a Vulcan, but it's something they do very well. I believe it's cultural AND biological. Vulcans have the capacity to be very emotional but also the capacity to be very logical.

So I believe his human heritage does affect Spock's emotional control to some degree, but it's more the fact that his SPECIES WAS JUST ALMOST COMPLETELY WIPED OUT that pushed him close to the breaking point. Add Kirk's insults to his mother, and it's amazing that Spock didn't start hitting Kirk sooner.

Also, newtype makes a good point. It's Spock's choice to balance his mixed heritage. As McCoy said in a novel (admittedly not canon but it's still true), it's not like you could cut Spock in two and end up with one half of a human and one half of a Vulcan. He's not 50% human and 50% Vulcan, at least psychologically speaking. He's 100% Spock, and his self-identity is a major part of his character, as is balancing the two parts of his heritage.

 

[UFO]

True, but its seems like she would have to arrive at an understanding regarding her influence, otherwise she would be constantly undermining Vulcan teaching.

She may not have a choice. Parents don't always get to pick and choose how their actions influence their children, nor can they always control what their children learn from watching them ... .

Amanda would be undermining Vulcan influence just by virtue of not acting like a Vulcan, by handling things in a human way, and thus setting examples for Spock to follow. Spock was VERY close to her, so close that he even consulted her on advice about which path to choose in life. Furthermore, unless she's some sort of displaced war orphan, Spock would have human relatives and cousins on Earth who would also have had an influence.

Yes, it seems like a very difficult situation but Spock was also being taught how to be logical so at some stage that may have helped him come to terms with those conflicts. In any event we see the end result was working well enough to keep Spock making the right calls, with ditching Kirk (for obvious plot reasons) arguably the only anomaly. By contrast we were lead to believe Kirk’s unstable emotional response of chasing after Nero would have got everyone killed for no reason. Everyone on the ship was emotionally compromised to some degree (even if no one seemed to show it to any great extent) but Spock was clearly the least impaired by it.

I believe his exact words are "He's a traitor you know... for marrying her. That human whore."

Yet when explaining his actions to his father, Spock doesn't mention comments about his mother.

Since Spock was the only Vulcan we had ever met, what exactly were our expectations of how a Vulcan would act?

The way Spock did. He was clearly representing the Vulcan race, and he certainly was acting "human".

Indeed, the first time we see him acting TRULY Vulcan is in TMP after he's spent several years studying the Kholinar; everyone on the ship notices how out of character this is for him, ...

I think its reasonable to suggest that was the result of training for the Kholinar which is appearently not something most Vulcans do* so that's not "TRULY Vulcan". Or at least not normal Vulcan.

* I read that somewhere but if anyone can comfirm or refute it I would be greatful.

... and by the end of the movie he's finally back to normal, even sheds a tear for V'ger, laughs at himself for not realizing that V'ger is a living machine, and openly expresses his friendship for Kirk in sickbay saying "Jim, this simple feeling is beyond V'ger's comprehension."

Not exactly "normal" for TOS Spock (though he may recognise friendships etc), but I have already commented on the trend of humanising of Spock prior to this movie.

The point, in this case, is that Spock has a mixed relationship with his Vulcan heritage as well as emotional control. He tries as hard as he can to be fully Vulcan but he cannot really be himself unless he takes his human half into account too.

We are not supposed to be psychiatrists trying to get Spock to be the best person he can be (or similar mumbo jumbo). Unless we are trying to justify the actions of a character in a movie we like of course. What’s important to me about his character in Star Trek is the different perspective it gives us and of course the potential conflict etc. If that means he is never completely at ease or "fulfilled", then that's just him.

Being half human means that half of his family is also human. Genetics or not, THAT is not something that can be wished away.

I am not unhappy with the way he acted in TOS most of the time and if he had to act out of character for a while, they usually provided a reason for it. If this is unrealistic based on our superior modern insights (and I don't concede that it is, necessarily), well, its a minor issue I can live with for the greater good. The example I prefer to go with is Spock doing what he thought was right despite external or internal pressures.

My point was that it's a fallacy to say that Spock never shows emotion. It's NOT true. Just because people think it's true doesn't mean it's true.

But it does imply its important.

He is NOT a solely logical being, just like Kirk is not solely a womanizer. Again, in my opinion, he doesn't act much more human in general in NuTrek than in TOS. The exceptions are justified by the fact that he's younger and by the fact that NERO KILLED HIS ENTIRE PLANET!

But that's his "thing". To make losing it a lynch pin of how Kirk grabs control of the Enterprise is pretty poor when there was little to no supporting evidence for its necessity (apart form a contrived plot point and SpockP's intuitions, which even if right weren't causing a significant problem). Heck, by not listening to Kirk ravings, he saved the ship so they could attack later when they had a chance and there is no reason to suppose that had Spock known of the beaming technology, he wouldn't have used it. Oh and then there's the Uhura thing. More human, I think so.

When I say Vulcans are better at controlling emotions...maybe I should have said they're better at conditioning their minds. The Vulcan mind is very complex and in some ways far stronger than the human mind, so when a Vulcan puts his mind to it, he can control himself far better than a human can. It's not natural for a Vulcan, but it's something they do very well. I believe it's cultural AND biological. Vulcans have the capacity to be very emotional but also the capacity to be very logical.

That is a good point from what I seem to remember about Vulcans. However, the way humans might respond to Vulcan conditioning is an untested quantity.

... but it's more the fact that his SPECIES WAS JUST ALMOST COMPLETELY WIPED OUT that pushed him close to the breaking point. Add Kirk's insults to his mother, and it's amazing that Spock didn't start hitting Kirk sooner.

Spock saw it coming, he had been exposed to such attacks before. It amazes me he lost track of the fact it was a painfully obvious ploy. At least with the spores his mind was in some way altered. I think it would have been a great opportunity to show how (half) Vulcans react in such situations but instead we got the same old human response we expected. Yes I guess you can try to rationalise it, if you feel you must, but it a slippery slope. Further, I repeat, people were trying to undermine his character in terms of both emotion and logic.

Also, newtype makes a good point. It's Spock's choice to balance his mixed heritage. ...

And its my choice to believe over thinking in order to justify him behaving too much like a human ends up devaluing his character.

 

[F. King Daniel]

UFO, Nero commited genocide. He exterminated the Vulcans. What, in your opinion, would it take to make a clean, sober Spock (any Spock) snap and attack someone?
Even full-blooded, Kohlinar(or however you spell it)-trained Tuvok lost it a few times in Voyager, once in a freaky mind meld after being beaten up.

 

[UFO]

UFO, Nero commited genocide. He exterminated the Vulcans. What, in your opinion, would it take to make a clean, sober Spock (any Spock) snap and attack someone?
Even full-blooded, Kohlinar(or however you spell it)-trained Tuvok lost it a few times in Voyager, once in a freaky mind meld after being beaten up.

You do ask some awkward questions. I should think it would have to be something hard hitting but also unexpected. I don't know of anyone being surprised that Spock didn't lose it immediately after his mother die or Vulcan was destroyed, yet you would think that's when it should have happened. Maybe it’s just a cumulative thing but the first hit would seem adequate. So surprise seems part of it.

Now Kirk even starts out by asking Spock if this or that bothered him. Spock's response proved he knew what Kirk was up to so no surprises there. OK, even if I am being a bit hard headed about how Spock might react, I simply didn't like anything about that scene or the changes to the way Spock behaves afterwards, brought about with the help of his father of course.

It was a scene that was not intended to save the Earth. That could probably have been done with Spock in control. It was intended to get Kirk into the captain’s chair.

Once again we see the writers taking a similar scene to one in TOS but not heeding the different circumstances surrounding it. Not only was their intent obvious, but they had Kirk behave poorly, when unlike the TOS version, Kirk's actions weren't necessary.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes, it seems like a very difficult situation

There's nothing difficult about it. Just complicated.

Yet when explaining his actions to his father, Spock doesn't mention comments about his mother.

And this makes a difference why? Because Amanda WAS a whore or because it didn't really bother him?

The way Spock did.

And we were wrong. Spock was at his MOST Vulcanish in TMP, and everyone on the Enterprise thought he had lost his mind.

I think its reasonable to suggest that was the result of training for the Kholinar which is appearently not something most Vulcans do*

It's looking to me like you're trying to have it both ways. Vulcans are supposed to have total control of their emotions, so Spock showing emotion is "humanizing" him too much; but when Spock shows no emotion whatsoever, "that's not something most Vulcans do."

But I guess that makes a certain amount of sense. Spock's emotional control may have slipped when he beat the shit out of that boy in school, but you've gotta wonder what LOGICAL reason they would have for picking on him in the first place. Even Vulcan elders are capable of expressing scorn for him, and in the Prime Universe Sarek and Spock are ultimately forced apart by years of bickering with an emotional dimension they are both too polite to mention.

We are not supposed to be psychiatrists trying to get Spock to be the best person he can be (or similar mumbo jumbo). Unless we are trying to justify the actions of a character in a movie we like of course.

First of all, you're correct in that "being the best person he can be" is for SPOCK to do, not for us. And he does it pretty well.

Second of all, I happen to life Spock, and have spent most of my adult life trying to justify or at least make sense of his actions. I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate to do so on this occasion as I have on countless others.

I am not unhappy with the way he acted in TOS most of the time and if he had to act out of character for a while, they usually provided a reason for it.

"My entire home planet was just destroyed and my mother died right in front of me" doesn't count as a possible reason? What, it has to be a mind-controlling alien force, or drugs, or just happening to have traveled through time to pre-Surak days... "severe emotional distress" isn't a valid reason anymore?

Are we so used to falling back on technobabble plot devices that we've forgotten that MOST of the things that affect the lives of real people aren't supernatural in nature?

Spock saw it coming, he had been exposed to such attacks before. It amazes me he lost track of the fact it was a painfully obvious ploy.

And yet, despite the fact that they ARE obvious, people still managed to get lured into conversations with trolls.

And its my choice to believe over thinking in order to justify him behaving too much like a human ends up devaluing his character.

It's hardly "overthinking" unless you require some sort of convenient plot device to remove Spock's emotional control. It is something we have never seen happen to him as the result of a serious emotional shock, and the way he handled it tells him alot more about him than we knew before.

Interestingly enough, it tells us next to nothing about Sarek. We've known since TNG that Sarek had some stupefyingly passionate feelings for Spock and Amanda both, but his background is too steeped in Vulcan discipline to express them openly. Spock, on the other hand, has just enough of a connection with his human heritage to be ashamed of it whenever it slips through the cracks.

 

[UFO]

There's nothing difficult about it. Just complicated.

Complicated things are often difficult but I will bow to your experience with such things.

And this makes a difference why? Because Amanda WAS a whore or because it didn't really bother him?

Because it might have been the comment about his father that set him off. We can’t be sure. Previous arguments seemed to be that only attacking his mother would do so.

And we were wrong. Spock was at his MOST Vulcanish in TMP, and everyone on the Enterprise thought he had lost his mind.

We still don’t know that. Tuvok didn’t behave the way Spock did. Perhaps the process of training for the Kolinahr (well Google likes this spelling, I don't know where I got the other version ) combined with other matters produced that result.

I think its reasonable to suggest that was the result of training for the Kholinar which is appearently not something most Vulcans do*

It's looking to me like you're trying to have it both ways. Vulcans are supposed to have total control of their emotions, so Spock showing emotion is "humanizing" him too much; but when Spock shows no emotion whatsoever, "that's not something most Vulcans do."

Yes, I guess it could look like that. But you were trying to suggest that all Vulcans act in the extreme and very distant manner Spock was, rather than how he behaved in TOS. I was trying to indicate that was going too far the other way.

But I guess that makes a certain amount of sense. Spock's emotional control may have slipped when he beat the shit out of that boy in school, but you've gotta wonder what LOGICAL reason they would have for picking on him in the first place.

I have complained about Vulcan racism as illogical myself in the past. Like you, I am just trying to make the best out of the mishmash various writers have given us over the years.

Second of all, I happen to life Spock, and have spent most of my adult life trying to justify or at least make sense of his actions. I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate to do so on this occasion as I have on countless others.

But your or my willingness to do so is likely to be modified by your view of the movie as a whole I believe.

"My entire home planet was just destroyed and my mother died right in front of me" doesn't count as a possible reason? What, it has to be a mind-controlling alien force, or drugs, or just happening to have traveled through time to pre-Surak days... "severe emotional distress" isn't a valid reason anymore?

For a human, obviously. For a Vulcan I am not so sure. I think it makes for a more interesting character in some ways if not. At least not using it as a cheap plot point.

And yet, despite the fact that they ARE obvious, people still managed to get lured into conversations with trolls.

How fortunate that you are too astute to be sucked in to such an engagement. But again, we know how humans would react. Vulcans may have a more dispassionate perspective. Whats the point in them being just like us?

It's hardly "overthinking" unless you require some sort of convenient plot device to remove Spock's emotional control.

I don’t see how your example is "overthinking"?

It is something we have never seen happen to him as the result of a serious emotional shock, and the way he handled it tells us alot more about him than we knew before.

That he can still perform surprisingly well until sabotaged by a subordinate?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We still don’t know that. Tuvok didn’t behave the way Spock did.

I happen to think Tuvok did a VERY good portrayal of a perfectly logical Vulcan with total control of his emotions. And possibly (though not necessarily) for that reason, as a character he was about as interesting as a bucket of sand.

I have complained about Vulcan racism as illogical myself in the past. Like you, I am just trying to make the best out of the mishmash various writers have given us over the years.

Yeah, but the idea of Vulcan discrimination comes from alot of the original creative minds in TOS, including D.C. Fontana, who is probably second only to Leonard Nimoy in her understanding of Spock's characterization. Make of that what you will.

For a human, obviously. For a Vulcan I am not so sure.

How about for a person?

That is to say, an actual living individual with a perspective and a point of view, an emotional element, the ability to love and be loved and be attached to things that are important in his life? Whatever else Spock may be, he IS that at least.

How fortunate that you are too astute to be sucked in to such an engagement.

If only that were true.

But again, we know how humans would react. Vulcans may have a more dispassionate perspective. Whats the point in them being just like us?

What indeed! I recall a certain conversation in the Terran Embassy on Vulcan in which Admiral Forrest asks "Why are Vulcans so afraid of humans?" to which Soval immediately answers, "Because there is one other species you remind us of."

Think about that. Why do humans and Vulcans get along as well as they do? Because they see in each other positive qualities they refuse to see in themselves.
And why do you suppose they ARGUE as much as they do? Because they see in each other the negative qualities they refuse to see in themselves.

Humans admire Vulcans for having their great emotional control but don't realize that many HUMANS are quite good at suppressing their true feelings when they need to; Vulcans admire humans for their ability to challenge conventional wisdom when they don't realize that they had to do this themselves to arrive at logic in the first place. Humans scorn Vulcans for detaching themselves emotionally from the suffering of others and yet they continue to eat meat, oppress the poor and downtrodden and turn a blind eye to the suffering of their enemies; Vulcans scorn humans for being ruled by their emotions, and yet they still give Spock a hard time just for having a human mother. Humans and Vulcans are more similar than EITHER race is willing to admit. But every once in a while they come to an understanding, and people like Spock are the result.

That he can still perform surprisingly well until sabotaged by a subordinate?

That Spock can still cry without shedding a single tear.

At least, that's what went through my head watching Spock and Uhura in the turbolift.

 

[DevilEyes]

And this makes a difference why? Because Amanda WAS a whore or because it didn't really bother him?

Because it might have been the comment about his father that set him off. We can’t be sure. Previous arguments seemed to be that only attacking his mother would do so.

Or, Spock preferred not to tell his father the details: "They called Mother a human whore and said you were a traitor for marrying her"? Maybe he didn't want to tell him that they were insulting Amanda because then it would be obvious that the insult was racial and that it was all about Spock's mother being human?

 

[UFO]

I happen to think Tuvok did a VERY good portrayal of a perfectly logical Vulcan with total control of his emotions. And possibly (though not necessarily) for that reason, as a character he was about as interesting as a bucket of sand.

I mean that he wasn't as rude and uncommunicative. And yes I guess Vulcans can provide challenges for writers.

Yeah, but the idea of Vulcan discrimination comes from alot of the original creative minds in TOS, including D.C. Fontana, who is probably second only to Leonard Nimoy in her understanding of Spock's characterization. Make of that what you will.

That one person grabbed it to provide a bit of drama and others followed suit? I doubt this was the result of much preplanning. It doesn’t seem possible that a race that is not just logical but can suppress their emotions can be racists! Since no such race exists in reality I am going to blame the writers.

How about for a person?

That is to say, an actual living individual with a perspective and a point of view, an emotional element, the ability to love and be loved and be attached to things that are important in his life? Whatever else Spock may be, he IS that at least.

I don’t think it unreasonable to suggest that a Vulcan person might respond differently to a human person however, and he seemed to, up to a point.

If only that were true.

I'm just going to assume you're modest. That seems to be for the best.

… "Why are Vulcans so afraid of humans?" to which Soval immediately answers, "Because there is one other species you remind us of."

Think about that. Why do humans and Vulcans get along as well as they do? Because they see in each other positive qualities they refuse to see in themselves. And why do you suppose they ARGUE as much as they do? Because they see in each other the negative qualities they refuse to see in themselves.

Yet your statements suggest that at least Soval does not refuse to see such things. But if you are right, well, humans I can understand, but as with the racism thing, emotion suppression and logic don’t seem to be doing much for the Vulcans.

Humans admire Vulcans for having their great emotional control but don't realize that many HUMANS are quite good at suppressing their true feelings when they need to;...

I would say humans are good at "hiding" (from others) rather than "suppressing" feelings.

That Spock can still cry without shedding a single tear.
At least, that's what went through my head watching Spock and Uhura in the turbolift.

Hmmmm, I see, poetic (not a fan of poetry, by the way). Well, I'm glad those scenes served a purpose for someone. I was too busy failing to suppress my own emotions at the time.

Or, Spock preferred not to tell his father the details: "They called Mother a human whore and said you were a traitor for marrying her"? Maybe he didn't want to tell him that they were insulting Amanda because then it would be obvious that the insult was racial and that it was all about Spock's mother being human?

Well that too, sure.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It doesn’t seem possible that a race that is not just logical but can suppress their emotions can be racists!

Why is that, when right here on Earth we have a race that claims to love peace and tranquility and the brotherhood of all mankind and yet somehow possesses an alarmingly large number of violent radical elements?

Suffice to say, out of Spock's entire class only three of them saw any particular reason to try and screw with him. And I'm sure they could, when pressed, cough up a perfectly logical-sounding reason for doing so. And yet they are what they are, to the bitter end: bullies with a racist motivation.

Yet your statements suggest that at least Soval does not refuse to see such things.

Exactly. MANY Vulcans come to realize this, as do many humans. It's a sometimes jarring revelation and it rarely comes easily. Archer, for example, had to walk around with Surak's Katra in his brain for a couple of days, and T'pol had to spend an uncomfortably long time in the presence of humans in order to begin to figure it out.

And Sarek and Amanda did the nasty... evidently THEY figured it out too. As did Uhura and Spock, though god only knows how.

but as with the racism thing, emotion suppression and logic don’t seem to be doing much for the Vulcans.

Logic and accuracy are not the same thing. ANY false statement can be proven logically if you start with a false premise.

Racial superiority is one such premise. Ironically, the denial of the belief in racial superiority is another one.

 

[UFO]

I’ll start with your last point:

Logic and accuracy are not the same thing. ANY false statement can be proven logically if you start with a false premise.

That's right but I took "logic" as a short hand for reasoning in general, up to and including the scientific method, which Vulcans clearly know of. Yes I know, smack hand. It certainly makes no sense however, for Vulcans to ignore teaching "reasoning" when they must have known of the limitations of logic alone. Humans do after all, and they have been at it longer that we have. Moreover, how useful is a system specifically designed to reduce conflict that allows racism etc?

Racial superiority is one such premise. Ironically, the denial of the belief in racial superiority is another one.

I think "racial superiority" would be the (false) conclusion rather than the premise, but I take your point, hence my comments above. Therefore:

It doesn’t seem possible that a race that is not just logical but can suppress their emotions can be racists!

Why is that, when right here on Earth we have a race that claims to love peace and tranquillity and the brotherhood of all mankind and yet somehow possesses an alarmingly large number of violent radical elements?

Clearly there are enormous differences between human cultural memes, however desirable, and a world wide system of ensuring people will not only think much better but don't have all the emotion driven sabotage that exists in human societies. I really don’t think most people have any idea how much room there is for improvement in the way children are socialised (though I am not suggesting the Vulcan route). Very sad.

And I'm sure they [Spock's three racist classmates] could, when pressed, cough up a perfectly logical-sounding reason for doing so. And yet they are what they are, to the bitter end: bullies with a racist motivation.

Again, although logic alone may not be quite as bad as it might seem, its deficiencies should have become pretty obvious to Vulcans over the 1600 odd years since the founding of these methods.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's right but I took "logic" as a short hand for reasoning in general, up to and including the scientific method, which Vulcans clearly know of. Yes I know, smack hand. It certainly makes no sense however, for Vulcans to ignore teaching "reasoning" when they must have known of the limitations of logic alone. Humans do after all, and they have been at it longer that we have. Moreover, how useful is a system specifically designed to reduce conflict that allows racism etc?

There's ALOT of assumptions in this paragraph. For one thing, it's never suggested that Vulcan logic is in any way equivalent to Enlightenment Era "reason," let alone superior to it in a way that would preclude racist ideas. Vulcan Logic is simply described as a motivational framework, and then only as an alternative to EMOTIONAL motives. In essence, your actions should follow from a calculated attempt to achieve a specific goal, NOT to achieve emotional gratification. It is, of course, possible to do the latter while pretending to do the former, just as Sarek did when he married Amanda. Or, as an even clearer example, just as T'pring and Ston did when they tried to elope on Spock's wedding day.

To the "moreover:" the Vulcan system is designed to produce order, NOT to reduce conflict. It evidently even provides a framework within which conflict may still exist, hence the ritual combat depicted in "Amok Time." THAT is the essence of Vulcan logic: it's a means of regulating their behavior to intentionally achieve beneficent social outcomes. Even those impulses that cannot be controlled must be expressed in a logical format, in the proper time and place. But at the end of the day, an individual Vulcan is just as lost as an individual human: trying to make sense of his world and himself based on what he thinks he understands about the universe.

I think "racial superiority" would be the (false) conclusion rather than the premise

No, because it is never ever arrived at LOGICALLY. "Our race is superior because of X" is an axiom that does not by itself bear logical scrutiny. Any detailed examination into that premise usually dismantles it, unless it is reinforced by other axioms that are also unproven.

How many Vulcans would actually bother to challenge that belief, though, in an environment where they almost never encounter non-Vulcans?

Clearly there are enormous differences between human cultural memes, however desirable, and a world wide system of ensuring people will not only think much better but don't have all the emotion driven sabotage that exists in human societies. I really don’t think most people have any idea how much room there is for improvement in the way children are socialised (though I am not suggesting the Vulcan route). Very sad.

Now replace the word "human" with "Vulcan" and you see what I'm getting at. Vulcan is a big planet with alot of ideas and not all of them are necessarily good ones. You cannot know if an idea is a bad one until you put it to the test, and how often do Vulcans have a chance to do this when it comes to non-Vulcans?

Again, although logic alone may not be quite as bad as it might seem, its deficiencies should have become pretty obvious to Vulcans over the 1600 odd years since the founding of these methods.

They certainly DID, as we got to see for ourselves during the Syrannite revolution in the 22nd century.

The overall theme of this discussion is that while Vulcans strive to be logical and accurate, they are FAR from perfect, and are fully capable of making mistakes (sometimes HUGE ones, in the case of V'las).

 

[UFO]

There's ALOT of assumptions in this paragraph. For one thing, it's never suggested that Vulcan logic is in any way equivalent to Enlightenment Era "reason," let alone superior to it in a way that would preclude racist ideas.

It seems inevitable any society base on science would have to use the scientific method to more successfully achieve their goals. I should have said "better" mainly in so far as emotion would not be hampering the process as much or at all. To the extent that racist creates disorder that would seem undesirable to Vulcans I should think.

It is, of course, possible to do the latter while pretending to do the former, just as Sarek did when he married Amanda. Or, as an even clearer example, just as T'pring and Ston did when they tried to elope on Spock's wedding day.

All of which seems to make a mockery of Vulcan ideals and teachings, if the case. It’s a wonder they have any practical value at all in solving their historic difficulties.

To the "moreover:" the Vulcan system is designed to produce order, NOT to reduce conflict.

As suggested, wouldn’t reducing conflict promote order? If so wouldn’t it be "logical" to do so?

No, because it is never ever arrived at LOGICALLY. "Our race is superior because of X" is an axiom that does not by itself bear logical scrutiny.

But you implied the racist children could come up with logically "sound" premises for their views/actions which means "racial superiority" is the conclusion. If it is just an axiom then logic or any other form of reasoning may not be involved beyond trying and failing to disproved or get round it.

Any detailed examination into that premise usually dismantles it, unless it is reinforced by other axioms that are also unproven.

Which presumably would also be "dismantled" by examination, thus my original agrument that racism etc would not survive for long.

How many Vulcans would actually bother to challenge that belief, though, in an environment where they almost never encounter non-Vulcans?

They have different races on Vulcan so racism should cause problems "in house" also.

Now replace the word "human" with "Vulcan" and you see what I'm getting at. Vulcan is a big planet with alot of ideas and not all of them are necessarily good ones.

But as I stated, they have an underlying framework of socialisation in logic/reasoning and emotion suppression we don’t. I would see that as a system that is much more geared to self improvement that our almost random methods.

You cannot know if an idea is a bad one until you put it to the test, and how often do Vulcans have a chance to do this when it comes to non-Vulcans?

The same principles would apply as with differences between races/subgroups on Vulcan I should think. That would be a sensible starting assumption for them anyway.

The overall theme of this discussion is that while Vulcans strive to be logical and accurate, they are FAR from perfect, and are fully capable of making mistakes (sometimes HUGE ones, in the case of V'las).

Well no ones perfect but most of these later extensions of Vulcan interaction seem at odds with their teachings and socialisation systems to the point of making Vulcan behaviour almost indistinguishable from that of humans. We are back to the fact that their exploits have been written by humans!

(Gee I hope some of the above makes sense! )

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There's ALOT of assumptions in this paragraph. For one thing, it's never suggested that Vulcan logic is in any way equivalent to Enlightenment Era "reason," let alone superior to it in a way that would preclude racist ideas.

It seems inevitable any society base on science would have to use the scientific method to more successfully achieve their goals.

But Vulcan society is based on logic, not science. Those are, again, two very different things.

To the extent that racist creates disorder that would seem undesirable to Vulcans I should think.

Certainly understandable, but considering how few non-Vulcans actually live on their planet it would not be so disruptive as to warrant serious consideration. It would, in effect, become one of their social blindspots, LONG overdue for some widespread cultural maintenance.

All of which seems to make a mockery of Vulcan ideals and teachings, if the case.

That's one possibility. Another possibility is that YOU do not understand Vulcan ideals and teachings as well as THEY do, and thus lack the ability to make a judgment call on whether or not their actions are (or can be made to be) consistent with them.

At least the whole "I would have Ston" shenanigans didn't disturb Spock all that much. If nothing else, T'pring took a very logical approach to the whole situation even if her underlying motives had a built-in emotional component.

As suggested, wouldn’t reducing conflict promote order?

No. Only removing conflict from public venues. Since conflict cannot be eliminated altogether, then strictly regulating its parameters would seem like a very logical approach.

Humans have some aspects of this too. "Street rules" for fist fights, for example; when I was growing up, the rule was the first person who bleeds has to concede defeat and go home. That rule works fine as long as everyone understands and adheres to it... but then at some point, I don't know when, the rule got tossed, and now we've got kids beating each other to death with 2x4s.

An orderly fist fight is infinitely preferable to a disorderly brawl.

But you implied the racist children could come up with logically "sound" premises for their views/actions which means "racial superiority" is the conclusion.

No, racial superiority is the starting premise. Teasing Spock to try and provoke an emotional response is the result of a logical process that includes that premise.

Vulcans, like humans, are very good at coming up with completely asinine ideas and then coughing up some elaborate rationalization after the fact. If you're lying to yourself about why you're doing it in the first place, then you don't NEED a logical explanation until someone calls you on it.

Which presumably would also be "dismantled" by examination, thus my original agrument that racism etc would not survive for long.

Why not? Again, how many non-Vulcans actually live there?

They have different races on Vulcan so racism should cause problems "in house" also.

And Vulcan HAS had problems with sectarian violence in its not-too-recent past, not to mention prejudicial discrimination against telepaths. They STILL practice open discrimination and exclusion of Vulcans who do not adhere to the principals of total logic.

Meaning they have practiced various forms of discrimination in the past, and continues to practice some of them even now. If they're willing to permanently exile their own people just for a dissenting ideology, how tolerant can they really be of an alien species with a COMPLETELY different culture?

I would see that as a system that is much more geared to self improvement that our almost random methods.

That's what I meant when I made reference to the 18th century Enlightenment philosophers: self-improvement was all the rage back then. And yet it was those same Enlightenment philosophers that brought us the Hamitic theory of race and some of the scarier aspects of White Supremacist thought. I think even Vulcans must appreciate the irony.

The same principles would apply as with differences between races/subgroups on Vulcan I should think. That would be a sensible starting assumption for them anyway.

For the most part, yes. But again, Vulcan intolerance is cultural first and racial second. Humanity as a RACE have a certain reputation that is inextricably linked with humanity as a CULTURE. For example, when Kh'elar tells Worf that sex "doesn't mean anything" he gets all pissed off and tells her "That is a HUMAN attitude!"

Well no ones perfect but most of these later extensions of Vulcan interaction seem at odds with their teachings and socialisation systems to the point of making Vulcan behaviour almost indistinguishable from that of humans.

Why, because they sometimes FAIL to follow their own moral principals?

Let's be clear on this: The pursuit of logic and moral principles is one of the things makes Vulcan culture different from Earth's. The FAILURE TO FOLLOW those principals is one of the things that makes them similar. In this particular aspect, ALL races are indistinguishable; Klingons routinely violate their own code of honor for personal gain, Ferengi sometimes practice charity or (Negus forbid!) honesty, Cardassians are sometimes seen trusting non-Cardassians, Bajorans sometimes doubt the will of the prophets, and Romulans sometimes question whether or not their empire is destined to rule the universe.

They differ from each other because of their societal aspirations, and they're identical to each other because their reasons for turning their backs on those aspirations--or at least temporarily neglecting them--are always the same. The most common reason by far is....

THE WOMEN!

 

[UFO]

But Vulcan society is based on logic, not science. Those are, again, two very different things.

They have a Science Academy! They were more advanced than Earth. It had to be a significant part of their culture and if it wasn’t to start with it should become so over time.

That's one possibility. Another possibility is that YOU do not understand Vulcan ideals and teachings as well as THEY do, …

Well I don’t understand the culture writers have invented for them as well as you do. I’m just basing my views on what I believe should develop with the givens of emotion repression and logic/science.

As suggested, wouldn’t reducing conflict promote order?

No. Only removing conflict from public venues. Since conflict cannot be eliminated altogether, then strictly regulating its parameters would seem like a very logical approach.

I don’t follow your argument but my question was supposed to be rhetorical.

Vulcans, like humans, are very good at coming up with completely asinine ideas and then coughing up some elaborate rationalization after the fact. If you're lying to yourself about why you're doing it in the first place, then you don't NEED a logical explanation until someone calls you on it.

For some reason people like to think such behaviour is inevitable. I don’t agree.

And Vulcan HAS had problems with sectarian violence in its not-too-recent past, not to mention prejudicial discrimination against telepaths. They STILL practice open discrimination and exclusion of Vulcans who do not adhere to the principals of total logic.

Meaning they have practiced various forms of discrimination in the past, and continues to practice some of them even now. If they're willing to permanently exile their own people just for a dissenting ideology, how tolerant can they really be of an alien species with a COMPLETELY different culture?

Your describing how they are portrayed by (human) writers. I’m saying I don’t think that would follow from implementing their basic teachings. Granted it would take time to shake out but they have had that.

That's what I meant when I made reference to the 18th century Enlightenment philosophers: self-improvement was all the rage back then. And yet it was those same Enlightenment philosophers that brought us the Hamitic theory of race and some of the scarier aspects of White Supremacist thought. I think even Vulcans must appreciate the irony.

And that’s what I meant about our emotions getting in the way and forcing investigation away from areas we have a vested interest in retaining. Since that force is supposed to be greatly reduced on Vulcan, all aspects of their society should be open to improvement. Look at how much cars have advanced in a century. Have you ever wondered why child raising methods haven’t made similar progress? Ego has a big part to play of course, but there are other similar factors at play no doubt.

Let's be clear on this: The pursuit of logic and moral principles is one of the things makes Vulcan culture different from Earth's. The FAILURE TO FOLLOW those principals is one of the things that makes them similar. In this particular aspect, ALL races are indistinguishable; Klingons routinely violate their own code of honor for personal gain.

They differ from each other because of their societal aspirations, and they're identical to each other because their reasons for turning their backs on those aspirations--or at least temporarily neglecting them--are always the same.

Its different in the case of Vulcans because the systems being ignored should prevent those same systems from being ignored! At least to anything like the degree we see. If they don’t, they're near useless.

The most common reason by far is....THE WOMEN!

Oh no, you didn't go there did you?