In my book, that was fair usage...citing Orville in comparison while acknowledging it as a separate entity. The jar is for references that treat Orville as part of Trek.
Comparing TNG's first season to Discovery's first season
- Thread starter Admiral Archer
- Start date
At risk of community scorn.....has anyone done a survey on the site which asks the opinion of all Star Trek fans to STD after the first season? Those in favor / against are both passionate, I'd be curious to see The answer from the overall Star Trek fandom , give a full season under its belt.
That episode is so underrated. I think it gets a bad rap because of the way Tasha is written out and the fact Armus looks like a guy wearing a garbage bag.
The story itself is really interesting and genuinely gripping. Armus is scary and threatening. The memorial scene at the end is really sad also which is a complete contrast to the horror of Armus throughout the rest of the episode.
Trek fans in 1987: "This sucks, the previous show was way better."
Trek fans in 1993: "This sucks, the previous shows were way better."
Trek fans in 2001: "This sucks, the previous shows were way better."
Trek fans in 2017: "This sucks, the previous shows were way better."
Trek fans in 2027: "This sucks, the previous shows (including Discovery) were way better."
Trek fans in 1993: "This sucks, the previous shows were way better."
Trek fans in 2001: "This sucks, the previous shows were way better."
Trek fans in 2017: "This sucks, the previous shows were way better."
Trek fans in 2027: "This sucks, the previous shows (including Discovery) were way better."
I'm looking forward to those times. Even if they don't change their mind about DSC, at least they'll have a new target to focus on instead.
During the time when episodes of DSC were dropping weekly, there were pinned threads dedicated to rating (1-10 scale with 10 being best score) and discussing each episode.
If I remember correctly, there was tons of participation in the rating polls (over 100 each time) and I'd say 75% of the raters were generally rating episodes at 7-10. You could go back and check them out.
As it happens, I just now caught up to Symbiosis in my rewatch. Let me officially add it to the list of episodes that are in no way, shape or form anywhere near being a classic. Easily one of the dumbest Prime directive stories ever. Really, Jean-luc, you'll rescue them, promise to fix their ships, keep them as guests on your advanced starship, but giving them honest information about their disease is the line in the sand? And extra stoopid points for giving that pompous speech about the sacrosanct nature of the prime directive even though you were one hundred percent down for violating it to help the poor locals right up until it became clear they were being exploited by their neighbors.
Plus, literally the entire middle section of this episode is basically just Star Trek: The After-School Special.
This episode is actually one of the stronger arguments against TNG season 1. The fact that it was somehow brought up as evidence in favor of TNG is literally mind-boggling.
It is fun to watch. Entertaining. Which is my biggest problem with Discovery. The angst simply isn't interesting or fun, and it is done much better on other current genre shows.
I need more than arrowhead badges, warp nacelles and constant pandering to be entertained.
I can't imagine watching Tasha Yar explain addiction to Wesley like he's a five year old for fun, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
If by joy you mean peels of laughter, then yes
I'd rather be laughing, than bored as Discovery trots out yet another nod to TOS.
It's a months-long collection of expressions that simply comes down to varied tastes, Bill.
You like goofylight (affinity toward TNG S1 and Orville would seem to indicate this) and you hate grimdark, at least when it comes to your "outer space adventure" entertainment. Different people appreciate different things, and get different emotional reactions from certain content.
You hate "angst." I personally have no passion or engagement with something that's light, frothy, and childishly optimistic for too consistent a period. There's simply no substance there for me to care about
You hate "pandering and nods." I have no time for the next Picard or Janeway righteous after school lecture about how wise and developed humanity is in the 24th century. As much as you find immaturity in the DSC approach, I find this to be childish and condescending at times. I love the nods, because I love TOS. You call that being a wanktastic fanboy. Ok, whatever. I'll break out the KY and wank it till it falls off. But to me, TOS IS Star Trek, so yeah, give me Mudd and Sarek and Mirror Universes and Pike until the cows come home. I hope next season has Zarabeth, Captain Garrovick, a sling-shot maneuver, Lt. Montgomery Scott, and Gorgon the Friendly Angel all rolled into one episode. Bring that shit and let me wank, baby!!
You find "melodrama" and the flawed characters boring. I've lost my desire to watch the same formulaic cookie-cutter people winking and nodding at each other throughout an episode, always counted on to do the right thing with virtue and steadfast consistency. To me that's dreadfully dull, because there's no growth or real tension. The characters are just templates in those cases, and uninteresting ones at that.
So, different strokes for different blokes, no? I mean shit, 99.9% of the world's population loves MU stuff. I don't. I think the only MU movies I've even seen are the first Ironman and the first Avengers. I find them boring, paint-by-numbers and childish. But I'm not going to argue that they are not good or fun, because a lot of people disagree. And I'm not going to get frustrated and feel excluded because everyone else disagrees. I simply laugh and realize it's not for me and I move on.
I think we all need to have the ability to realize there are some things that just aren't going to hit our happy buttons, and that's ok. But, banging heads against concrete in frustration with people who fundamentally have different tastes is probably not productive. You're arguing against things that are part of people's fundamental make-up in terms of their values and ingrained happy buttons.
Most people's frustration or disappointment stems from the thinking that when a franchise product surfaces that doesn't hit the happy buttons, that this is a major threat, because the franchise will be locked into that for years to come. But, given what we know, there's a whole bunch of other Star Trek headed our way. I'm sure it will be varied in tone and intent. There will be something there for everyone.
DSC, if not appealing, doesn't need to be so frustrating because there's bound to be another franchise product (or two or three) that will appeal to people like you who have different tastes.
There is nothing about Discovery that is "frustrating", I enjoy talking about Trek in all its various incarnations a great deal, sometimes what we see as failures are far more interesting to talk about than the successes. And, of course we all have different things that press our joy buttons. But, this is a thread about Discovery and TNG first seasons, and comparisons of the two (for good or ill) are totally appropriate.
Personally I like both light and dark (and DSC really isn't all that dark to begin with, nor is TNG1 all that light). I just want the characters to be engaging and the stories to make sense and not be boring or cringeworthy.
Based on the first seasons alone, the DSC characters were far more engaging to me than the TNG ones. Yes, Picard and crew got better, but not in this season.
Based on the first seasons alone, DSC had plenty of fun, interesting stories, even though their season long arc did flop like a wet fish in the last few episodes. TNG, on the other hand, spends most of its time either boring me to tears or being so cringeworthy I can barely watch. I honestly don't understand where the 'fun' is supposed to be in watching it, light hearted or not.
Based on the first seasons alone, the DSC characters were far more engaging to me than the TNG ones. Yes, Picard and crew got better, but not in this season.
Based on the first seasons alone, DSC had plenty of fun, interesting stories, even though their season long arc did flop like a wet fish in the last few episodes. TNG, on the other hand, spends most of its time either boring me to tears or being so cringeworthy I can barely watch. I honestly don't understand where the 'fun' is supposed to be in watching it, light hearted or not.
Well, I don't think DSC has been "failure" by any definition, but more a "personal disappointment," but I get your meaning. And, I do understand (a bit?) that people would find it more interesting / entertaining / fulfilling to discuss things that disappoint them.
It's another area where tastes/values are different I suppose. I am just the opposite. I tend to not want to discuss anything to any great extent that disappoints me or fails to resonate strongly with me. To me, that just wastes time and exasperates my disappointment. It's why I barely post in the forums dedicated to Berman-era Trek. I don't DISLIKE that type of Star Trek, but it just doesn't illicit any positive passion from me. The Trek I get passionate about (for whatever reasons) is TOS, DSC, and the feature films from all eras (TOS, TNG, Kelvin). But, I don't want to go into the VOY forum and start expressing how Neelix kind of sucks (for example) because I think that actually just makes me like the show even less...and since I love Star Trek in general, I'd rather not have that happen.
And..........c'mon...........you're a little frustrated with DSC. If not, I guess I've lost track of what frustration looks like.
THIS is one of the things I do enjoy about S1 and S2 of TNG. In fact, it's what the later seasons were really missing. If the episodes in those first two seasons had been more consistent, they would have hit it out of the park.
If they had....
More of:
The Last Outpost
11001001
Where No One Has Gone
Heart of Glory
Conspiracy
The Royale
Contagion
Time Squared
Q Who
Where Silence Has Lease
Less of:
Code of Honor
Naked Now
Justice
Datalore
Haven
Angel One
Symbiosis
Too Short a Season
The Neutral Zone
Elementary Dear Data
Outrageous Okona
Unnatural Selection
Dauphin
Icarus Factor
Samaritan Snare
Manhunt
Shades of Gray
...I'd say those seasons would have been easily elevated above DSC's first. But, for me, while DSC didn't have many episodes that elevate to the fun and sense of wonder that "Where No One Has Gone" or "Contagion" may have given me...they don't (in my opinion) have anything as boring, uninteresting, or just downright "bad" as ANY of those episodes listed in my "less of" category. So, on average, I find DSC's first season far more interesting than either of TNG's first two seasons. It's not without flaws, frustrations, gaps, foolishness, and general blah in spots. But over the course of a full season (well...15 vs. 25 episodes I suppose)...DSC wins easily for me. In fact, that's true of every series with the exception of TOS. The first seasons generally suck. In fact, I basically stopped watching every modern iteration of Trek in first run except TNG (I was 11-12 years old, though) during the first season. DSC was the first one since 1987-88 that I made it all the way through.
For me personally, that says something.
WESLEY: Data, I can understand how this could happen to the Ornarans. What I can't understand is why anyone would voluntarily become dependent on a chemical.
DATA: Voluntary addiction to drugs is a recurrent theme in many cultures.
TASHA: Wesley, no one wants to become dependent. That happens later.
WESLEY: But it does happen. So why do people start?
TASHA: On my home planet, there was so much poverty and violence, that for some the only escape was through drugs.
WESLEY: How can a chemical substance can provide an escape.
TASHA: It doesn't, but it makes you think it does. You have to understand, drugs can make you feel good. They make you feel on top of the world. You're happy, sure of yourself, in control.
WESLEY: But it's artificial.
TASHA: It doesn't feel artificial until the drug wears off. Then you pay the price. Before you know it, you're taking the drug not to feel good, but to keep from feeling bad.
WESLEY: And that's the trap?
TASHA: All you care about is getting your next dosage. Nothing else matters.
WESLEY: I guess I just don't understand.
TASHA: Wesley, I hope you never do.
I really don't think that speech is that bad.
And it takes maybe two minutes out of a forty-eight minute long episode.
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