Plus it likely didn't help that Riker told Jellico Delta-shift was a no go not too long before they were supposed to be on duty aka almost the last minute.
Commands turned down by Riker: Right call or Bad career moves?
- Thread starter TheSubCommander
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Plus it likely didn't help that Riker told Jellico Delta-shift was a no go not too long before they were supposed to be on duty aka almost the last minute.
He wasn't just an ass towards Riker though. He was towards Picard and Troi too, you could tell he had pissed them off as well. Jellico may be a good captain but he's not good with people. He walked in to command and tried to jam his hardass attitude on them, and in doing so failed to use the crew to their potential.
Riker was the only one with enough backbone to tell him to step off. Given that Riker had more experience rescuing Picard from crazy situations, Jellico should have listened to him.
Riker was the only one with enough backbone to tell him to step off. Given that Riker had more experience rescuing Picard from crazy situations, Jellico should have listened to him.
Actually in the scene where Jellico tells Deanna to lose the evening gown and begin wearing a professional uniform, I thought that he was respectful, polite and was employing low tones, while still getting across that Deanna wasn't appropriately dressed.
Or were you referring to a different interact between Jellico and Deanna?
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He means when Deanna pointed out how morale was suffering and Jellico completely blew her off.
I tend to agree that Jellico's command skills were all right and it was primarily Riker being a whiner -- but Jellico really dropped the ball there. The captain doesn't have to be a people person and he doesn't have to explain all his decisions, but he needs to recognize the impact he's having.
That is very insightful and it explains his career shift pretty well.
I tend to agree that Jellico's command skills were all right and it was primarily Riker being a whiner -- but Jellico really dropped the ball there. The captain doesn't have to be a people person and he doesn't have to explain all his decisions, but he needs to recognize the impact he's having.
Also, perhaps Riker recognized that his fast-track rise thru the ranks was maybe resulting in him losing crucial experience. But the situation on Enterprise, taken under Picard's wing, gave him that. He wanted to sit for a while, observe and grow. He could have continued climbing the career ladder with assignments like Melbourne, but it might've resulted in him being promoted "too soon" in his own mind.
He might also have still had the niggling feeling that his entire career trajectory was based on a LIE, namely (naively) covering for Captain Pressman. So he held back, as a sort of personal penance, or maybe because he felt his first promotion following Pegasus was somehow illegitimate and he needed to make sure he does the hard yards now, if only to prove to himself that he really had what it takes to succeed on his own terms and in his own right, not just because of nepotism.
Whatever the case, it is clear that by BOBW Riker is firmly in control of his own destiny. His staying aboard Enterprise as first officer is *his* choice. He's there because he *wants* to be there.
That is very insightful and it explains his career shift pretty well.
Problem being he was there to get the Enterprise prepped for being the first line of defense in a possible war not to talk to the intelligent fungus of Whothehellcares IX.
Plus, I've never seen anyone blast Picard's command style going back to "Encounter at Farpoint"...
The situations are incredibly similar. New Captain, very serious mission that could mean the lives of the crew are in jeopardy. New Captain not having time to coddle the crew around them.
I know TrekLit turned the Jellico character into a major ass based on what we had seen in "Chain of Command", which simply wasn't fair to the character and seems to color many peoples judgement about the character.
I think the way Picard treated Riker when he first came on board was sort of Picard being overly harsh on Riker just to rattle him a bit. Once the mission got, the ship was connected and Riker was settled in Picard lightened up and became more his usual self.
Riker was kind of territorial, consistently came off as easily threatened, and had a tendency to play things safe in certain situations, so that he would turn down commands fit his personality, I thought. He knew he had a great thing on the Enterprise, personally and professionally. His turning down commands was about how great the Enterprise was.
... AGREED!!! Not a reflection upon himself, or his command abilities, or anything else like that. It was all to underscore the awesomeness of being onboard ENTERPRISE.
Unfortunately, there are conotations ... implications ...
I'd agree that in the end, it was the right path for his personal happiness. He may even end up getting the Enterprise yet, in which case, any of the goals he seemed to be aiming for will have been met in his life
However, I think Young Riker claimed to want it differently. That Riker should've taken the Aries. That's what guys who really want what he claimed to want do, like Picard
When you look at it like that, you have to conclude that young Riker didn't really know what he wanted out of his life. He was following a path because he believed it to be what he wanted, (Kinda like Wesley) but over time what he really wanted came out on its own, which is actually a pretty normal thing for a man
There's lots of ways to view it. I think he should have taken the Aries, (Or any available ship after BOBW because he was GOD that week), but that's just an opinion. You can't tell me he couldn't pick an awesome post from the whole of Starfleet after saving everyone from the Borg
However, I think Young Riker claimed to want it differently. That Riker should've taken the Aries. That's what guys who really want what he claimed to want do, like Picard
When you look at it like that, you have to conclude that young Riker didn't really know what he wanted out of his life. He was following a path because he believed it to be what he wanted, (Kinda like Wesley) but over time what he really wanted came out on its own, which is actually a pretty normal thing for a man
There's lots of ways to view it. I think he should have taken the Aries, (Or any available ship after BOBW because he was GOD that week), but that's just an opinion. You can't tell me he couldn't pick an awesome post from the whole of Starfleet after saving everyone from the Borg
Although he hoped to command the Enterprise, Picard showed no signs of letting go--especially after Capt. Kirk told him to stay in the Captain's Chair.
Personally, I would rather have become the Captain of my own ship, rather than become the perennial XO of another ship, even a great one like the Enterprise.
As a Captain, you can make a name for yourself. On the Enterprise, you'd always feel like you were walking in your predecessor's shadows.
Personally, I would rather have become the Captain of my own ship, rather than become the perennial XO of another ship, even a great one like the Enterprise.
As a Captain, you can make a name for yourself. On the Enterprise, you'd always feel like you were walking in your predecessor's shadows.
I think once it became clear that Troi and he were an item again, and that the Enterprise-D was destroyed, I think that is when Riker felt it was time to move on. He wanted to command the Enterprise-D. There was no indication that he had the same feeling towards the Enterprise-E, AND Picard had made no indication he was going to retire/accept promotion to Admiral, especially after Generations. Even Nemesis implies Picard is going to keep on commanding a partially new crew. So, there was nothing else left for Riker to hang around for.
So, when the Titan is offered, and he and Troi made plans to get hitched, it made sense he would accept finally: the Enterprise-D was gone and Enterprise-E was just another ship, Troi was going to follow Riker where he was going, and Picard still wanted to captain the Enterprise-E.
IIRC, in one or more novels pre-Nemesis, when Riker was offered the Titan it was with the implication that Starfleet wouldn't be offering anything to him EVER again unless he took it - to the point that they'd even ask for his commission.
In many militaries, there is an "up or out" policy whereby you pretty much can't refuse a promotion, because if you do so enough times (twice in the US), you are removed from service - they figure they can't get any more out of you, so you're let go to make room for those they can. I think Starfleet was getting the same vibe from Riker, and while I highly doubt they're as strict, they certainly would have their own limits. Any military or paramilitary organization requires ambition from its officers, and this is one way to promote (sic) this.
Mark
In many militaries, there is an "up or out" policy whereby you pretty much can't refuse a promotion, because if you do so enough times (twice in the US), you are removed from service - they figure they can't get any more out of you, so you're let go to make room for those they can. I think Starfleet was getting the same vibe from Riker, and while I highly doubt they're as strict, they certainly would have their own limits. Any military or paramilitary organization requires ambition from its officers, and this is one way to promote (sic) this.
Mark
doubleohfive
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It was originally supposed to be Geordi Q brings in, but because LeVar Burton had his head shaved at the time the episode was being produced, the writers ultimately went with Riker.
The reference to Riker possibly commanding Voyager was an in-joke by the writers. When TNG ended, Frakes and Sirtis were going around joking suggesting that Riker and Troi get married and he gets command of Voyager in the pilot episode, and that the show would feature the two of them as the leads.
I have no idea how seriously Berman, Piller and Taylor or the studio took this suggestion, but the comment Q makes in "Death Wish" is a reference to that. Another line that was cut from the episode suggested that were it not for Q, Tuvok would have been chief engineer of the Enterprise - another in-joke referencing the fact that Tim Russ had auditioned for the role of Geordi La Forge when TNG was first casting it's lead roles.
The reference to Riker possibly commanding Voyager was an in-joke by the writers. When TNG ended, Frakes and Sirtis were going around joking suggesting that Riker and Troi get married and he gets command of Voyager in the pilot episode, and that the show would feature the two of them as the leads.
I have no idea how seriously Berman, Piller and Taylor or the studio took this suggestion, but the comment Q makes in "Death Wish" is a reference to that. Another line that was cut from the episode suggested that were it not for Q, Tuvok would have been chief engineer of the Enterprise - another in-joke referencing the fact that Tim Russ had auditioned for the role of Geordi La Forge when TNG was first casting it's lead roles.
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That doesn't fit with the vibe in TOS where Spock was an highly regarded officer, but absolutely not interested to be promoted.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Perhaps, but it absolutely fits with Hanson's assertion that there were plenty of young up-and-comers like Shelby aiming for Riker's seat next to Picard.
At a certain point, it becomes something of a parody - by staying where he was for so long, the case could be made that Riker also deprived junior officers the opportunity to learn command by being an executive officer to someone like Picard.
Clearly it wasn't that big a deal in the canon of the franchise, but its at the heart of what Hanson tells Picard, and what Picard later tells Riker, and it's equally valid.
I think Spock was something of a rarity though. Someone who held down both the Chief Science Officer post along with being the First Officer. Spock was a scientist first and if pushed, would've likely been happy as Chief Science Officer only.
doubleohfive
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And let's not forget that Spock did, eventually become captain of the Enterprise, presumeably (depending on who you ask) after Kirk returned to Starfleet following the V'Ger crisis OR after the alleged second five-year mission Kirk commanded after the V'Ger crisis.
I would agree, I always got the impression that Riker wanted the Enterprise-D, he seamed attached to the D, as Admiral in "All good things" he kept it as his flagship and at the end of Generations he seemed more upset at it's destruction than Picard.
For me it would have been good if they had made the USS Titan a Galaxy class at the end of Nemises.
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