Colin Trevorrow no longer directing Episode IX.
- Thread starter Gepard
- Start date
No, it isn't remotely true. SW77 was written to be a standalone film with a completely self-contained story. Does that mean that every question about what is going on is answered? No it doesn't, but pointing out that there are unanswered questions is a straw man argument. SW77 is a masterpiece of telling you just enough of what you need to know.
TFA, not so much. Of course, strictly speaking, we don't "need" to know anything.
For example, (I'm jesting) we don't "need" to know why the stormtrooper conditioning failed on Finn, that is assuming it actually failed. Maybe TLJ will surprise me and us with a reveal that Finn was engineered to be a defector to become a top-secret mole who's actually still under conditioning, but I doubt it. For all the screen time actually dedicated to the discussion of conditioning, including Finn being ordered to get more of it, there's no reason whatsoever given for why it failed, not even a simple statistic cited for it failing some small fraction of the time. (Now seriously) this is not an example of masterful and efficient storytelling. If we don't need to know, then why bother with discussion of it at all? That's just a waste of screen time and our time, and the big thing that does is underscore the unanswered question of why this thing is happening that is so explicitly and specifically intended not to happen. So many events in the film depend on Finn's defection, so it's not like this is a trivial or esoteric point.
A comparable situation in SW77 that is an example of efficient and masterful storytelling is perhaps the restraining bolt on R2. We don't even really know what it is, until 3PO brings it up that R2 is asking for it to come off, supposedly to fix his recording system so Luke can see the whole message from the Princess. It is actually Luke who tells us all we need to know, when he says that he thinks that R2 is too small to run away if he takes the bolt off of R2. That tells us that the bolt is an inhibitor that keeps the droid from running away, and Luke has just opened the door. It's told efficiently and masterfully. Imagine instead that time was spent drilling it into us that restraining bolts keep droids from running away, and then after multiple discussions of that it is never shown how R2 lost his bolt. With so much in what happens depending on R2 getting away, both to draw Ben into the story and to get Luke and 3PO away from the farm when the stormtroopers come, despite Luke's chores, that wouldn't be a trivial omission.
You must have missed the parts in the crawl where the Galactic Empire is explicitly described as evil and that Princess Leia was said to be trying to save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy.... By extension that's what all the Rebels are trying to do. It's not just the imagery; it's explicitly stated up front.
And on the question of Vader, that's not what the film said. Ben said that Vader helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi. Helped. Ben said that Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father, but it wasn't said that it was Vader alone who killed all the Jedi. It's told that Vader specifically killed one Jedi, Luke's father, and probably also others but just as probably also not all the others.
Vader is the most powerful singular villain in the whole film, but he's not the only villain shown and he's not the highest-ranking villain shown either. Vader takes orders from Tarkin and there's this off-screen Emperor running the Empire. The totality of evil forces and their weapons, especially the Death Star, comprise the obstacles that the heroes face in the film. Vader's an important and powerful cog in that machine, but he's only one cog.
I don't follow Star Wars news even remotely as closely as I do Star Trek news, so I'm only learning about this now, but I have to say, I'm quite happy about Abrams returning, considering how much I enjoyed The Force Awakens. I actually think it was easily the best of all the movies. Makes me very confident about the last chapter of the sequel trilogy.
I would like to ask Abrams one thing. Why would Luke create a map leading to his whereabouts . . . and then divide it, hiding one section inside R2-D2 and giving the other section to Lor San Tekka? What was the purpose of Luke's actions in the first place, considering that he simply wanted to isolate himself, following Ben Solo's murder of Luke's other acolytes?
What they showed us, in combination with Finn's "I was raised to do one thing" scene, reveals quite a lot actually. It could possibly have been more efficient, but it wasn't a waste. Humans aren't machines, you always have to account for "the human spirit." If nothing else, Finn represents that.
These guys are so evil they condition soldiers from childhood to be ruthless and take any order given.
"Reconditioning" itself suggests that it doesn't always take, and they watch over all of the troopers constantly. We can safely assume there are others, or they would just kill anyone who showed any hint of discontent or divergence from their conditioned behavior.
Finn must be an extraordinarily compassionate and willful person to have overcome his training. (Or the Force gave him a push, which was what they clearly wanted us to believe in the first half of the film.)
Finn only went on his first mission a couple days ago, that is why he is so green and why these problems only came up now.
We assume Luke made the map. Lor San Tekka likely made the map of the sectors where Luke was going from R2s's stole Imperial charts and kept the vital piece himself. Perhaps for his own reasons. Perhaps to protect Luke in case R2 was captured, since that droid is potentially famous as the Skywalker's droid. Perhaps because he thought it was the will of the Force. Perhaps he thought Luke was making a mistake and made sure that there was some way to find him when things went dark side.
R2 having the rest of the map is usually R2 stuff. He's got everything in there.
R2 having the rest of the map is usually R2 stuff. He's got everything in there.
Had any of the boldfaced been included in the film, it would have made perfect sense.
I got it from the film...
Seemed obvious to me through his characterization and dialogue.
I got it from the film...
The problem was that Finn was ordered to go back to conditioning. So, there's this unanswered question of immediate events that would include the question of whether he had even shown up yet for his reconditioning. Or, if he had shown up, why didn't it work at least for a time longer. The reasonable assumption that he did show up but it didn't work even in the short run is what creates the biggest issue. There's something different about Finn from the usual stormtrooper, it is clear, but we're not told what it is. We have a palette of choices to choose from for the explanation instead, and some of these choices are mutually exclusive. That's not a narrative.
In contrast in SW77, the analogous situation of R2's restraining bolt is handled efficiently, specifically, and explicitly.
I don't think that's what happened. I think Luke went to Lor San Tekka (a notable explorer specialising in Jedi artifacts) for possible leads on the location of the first Jedi temple. What he gives to Poe (a map to Ahch-To) would basically be the same information he gave to Luke. Really, all Leia has doing is trying to retrace Luke's steps.
The impression I got from the 'Before the Awakening' short story is that up until that point, (as stated in the movie) Finn never showed any signs of disobedience, so he was never given the full "reconditioning" treatment. There was simply no need.
The reason why he was obedient up until that point was because being helpful and working in a team is part of his nature and prior to the Jakku mission it had all been simulations and propaganda for him. He'd never actually seen "the enemy" until Phasma ordered them to slaughter those mostly unarmed villagers.
Luke gave LST the map
Sounds like Revan's plan from the Knights of the Old Republic video game plot. Maybe JJ is a gamer?
I never thought he went to reconditioning. I thought he had been ordered to do so by Phasma, but went to rescue Poe instead.
Then why isn't Phasma all over him?
One of the problem with cutting around between different threads of action that aren't in the same place when you get back to them is that we don't know what's transpired in the interim. When circumstances have changed from how they're set up to be, we have to fill in the blanks. Again, that's the problem here, since there's no one way to do it and what's actually happening can vary wildly depending on how the blanks are filled in.
If the intention was that Finn didn't go to reconditioning, then that could have been handled so easily. Have Phasma watch over his shoulder as he heads off to reconditioning. Have her get interrupted by another officer needing her attention. Finn rounds a corner out of sight of her, but then decides to head off in a different direction where he goes to free Poe, all in one continuous scene. That would take, what, fives or eight seconds of screen time?
Keep in mind, please, that I am not arguing that this is a plot hole, but rather that it is plot ambiguity. That's an important distinction. There are a variety of explanations available and consistent with what we know that can explain what happened, but we don't have enough information to decide which one was intended to be the case.
There some pages in TV Tropes that address this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaybeMagicMaybeMundane
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RiddleForTheAges
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrugOfGod
This is something that Abrams seems to do a lot.
Because she expected obedience, since he had never shown deviation before.
I'm not saying its a plot hole. Just relating my impressions from watching the film. Could it have been done better? Of course, but I followed it just fine as it is as well.
She told Hux he was ordered, but never showed up, to reconditioning. That is because he went to save Poe instead. When would she ever have a chance to reem him out?