Cloaking technology borrowed from romulans

[Withers]

This might be a stupid question but it relates to what you guys are talking about;


What was the point in cloaking the mines at the entrance to the wormhole? The Dominion knew they were there, that they ostensibly covered the entire entrance and that they were in close proximity to one another right? So what was the point in cloaking them? The problem they had in disabling the minefield would have been there regardless (the self-replicating feature) so... what was the point in cloaking them?

-Withers-​

 

[Myasishchev]

I can only guess so they could only be targeted with area weapons, instead of directly destroyed. Presumably if you could see them, you could outpace their replication (it's actually almost shocking that they put any limitations on them).

 

[Withers]

They were destroying them though right? In one of my favorite Weyoun scenes Dukat explains that they aren't ordinary mines and that each time they destroy one its neighbor replicates a new one. (That's paraphrased but is the extent of the conversation more or less.) That being the case... isn't cloaking them just a waste of a cloaking device? (Apparently they had several thousand though so I guess that point might have been moot.)

If they'd put the mines in the wormhole cloaking them would've made more sense. But making them invisible when everybody knew essentially where they were anyway seems kind of pointless.

-Withers-​

 

[SpyOne]

Of course the Klingons had the cloaking device by at least the late 23rd century -- ST: TSFS, and Kruge's bird of prey, was the first time we saw Klingons using the cloak.

That happened, including calling the Klingon ship a bird of prey, because in the earliest draft for TSFS, the villains were supposed to be Romulans. So, they used some of the (till-then) terminology and tech usually associated with the Romulans.

I'd heard that story slightly differently: that in earlier drafts there was a scene of Kruge and his crew stealing a Romulan ship, specificly to get a ship with a cloak. Thus, a Klingon crew on a Romulan Bird of Prey.

Which is such a cool idea. (Cloaking always stuck me as a bit un-Klingon, anyway. A culture that favors announcing your intention to fight, and vilifies poison as a coward's weapon, doesn't seem to be big on attacking from stealth.)

While I have always personally believed that Romulan cloaks were better than Klingon cloaks because, as folks have suggested above, the Romulans provided cloaking tech to the Kilingons in exchange for those nifty ships, and like Russia and the US the Rommies didn't sell their very best stuff (that is, the cloaks they sold the Klingons were not as good as their own best cloaks, so they were always a few years ahead), I agree the main reasons for using a Romulan cloak are political:
1) By treaty, the Federation cannot develop or use cloaks, so even if they use a Klingon cloak they need the Romulans' permission.
2) The Romulans probably weighed their options, and while letting them use a Klingon cloak meant keeping Romulan cloaks away from curious eyes, using a Romulan cloak gave them an excuse to put an agent on the ship, both to make sure the cloak wasn't misused and to report home on anything interesting in the Gamma Quadrant or even on DS9.

 

[SpyOne]

I had long assumed that cloaks on ships were highly advanced technology that was not easy to come by. Though personally - the joke among my friends is if you want cheap invisibility... in space, just paint your ship black! Obviously, like the stealth ships we have today, there's much more to it than that, but still.

I read an article that touched on this subject, where the author made the case that cloaking might be the tech in Star Trek that is closest to magic, since hiding in space is so incredibly difficult.

I understand that "paint it black" is meant as a joke, and it would work for invisibility, since you'd be impossible to see. Unless, of course, you were silhouetted by something:if you pass between a light source and the observer, you'll be a fairly obvious black spot. And in space light sources are everywhere:"My god, it's full of stars".

But we aren't trying for "invisible", we want "undetectable". Which is a way bigger problem. You probably use magnetic fields or force screens or something to keep the radiation from stars from killing your crew, and those are going to be easily detectable with 20th century tech at some truly ridiculous ranges.
While those fusion reactors that run the impulse engines and provide other power to the ship are going to be remarkably well shielded, to keep them from killing the crew, it is implausible that they keep all the radiation in, just that the amount that slips out isn't harmful. If the amount of radiation escaping from your reactor is similar to, say, the average exposure at sea level on the earth, your ship is going to be a strong radiation source in space. Unless it is silhouetted against an even stronger source like a sun, or hiding behind something large and shielding like a planet, it is going to again be easily detected by 20th century tech.

I'm just saying: hiding in space sounds easy, but it isn't.

 

[nyc12182]

There is an excerpt on Memory Alpha or beta I believe about the defiant and its cloaking device.

In overall trek mythos term, Gene never liked the idea of the Federation having cloaking tech, he felt the Feds had nothing to hide so had no need for the technology, and when DS9 producers/writers wanted the defiant to have it, it was a huge debate.

But my overall interpretation of how its applied to the story,...

Treaty of Algeron prevents the federation from using cloaking technology, and an amendment was created to allow the defiant to use on in exchange for information on the Dominion.

The Federation is perfectly capable of creating cloaking technology of there own, Example are the Pegasus as well as the holoship/cloak suits from Insurrection.


So even though its a tactical advantage the federation doesnt believe in the over all mass use of the technology.

But i do believe its a poor mans excuse. Especially during the Dominion war.

 

[Timo]

I'm framing it pretty narrowly: I oppose the notion of remote transmission of power to the killsats which permit Our Heroes to blow up the asteroidal moon with the actual power source.

I dunno; they justified it pretty well by saying that the Cardassians were cutting corners there, in order to have any fortifications in place at all when the enemy came. Many an attack has been deterred by the erection of fatally flawed fortifications, as the enemy either hasn't known about the flaw or hasn't dared gamble that it would really be possible to exploit the flaw. OTOH, many an important target has been defended by flawed forts and lost because of the flaws - say, Singapore in WWII - while others have been defended by invulnerable forts but conquered either by the use of sheer overwhelming force (Metaxas line) or by outmaneuvering (Maginot line). Fortifications are an expensive and ultimately uncertain way to protect a target or to force the enemy's hand, and cutting of corners is commonplace as a consequence...

I also question the stupidity of automated 24th century killsats that can't visually identify enemy ships and are so easily juked by "painting warp signatures" on their own power source. At the very least, shouldn't they be hardcoded to not fire on that location?

I could again say the Cardassians cut corners and didn't double-check whether all the logical and necessary (and affordable!) precautions had really been taken. But here the issue is exacerbated by the fact that our heroes counted on this flaw! That's a whopper of an assumption to make. Then again, they were pretty desperate at that point, and trying out the trick would only have cost them, what, four additional starships at worst, while promising hands-down victory in the unlikely case it succeeded. Failure would mean losing those four ships and having to withdraw, not losing the rest of the fleet or having to surrender Earth...

Cloaking always stuck me as a bit un-Klingon, anyway. A culture that favors announcing your intention to fight, and vilifies poison as a coward's weapon, doesn't seem to be big on attacking from stealth.

Yet Klingons in TOS were always in favor of subterfuge, trickery and surprise attacks. A cloaked raider fits rather perfectly with that sort of warrior ethos: you can pounce on a mighty enemy and die with bravado, as in the teaser for "Errand of Mercy", or later in ST3:TSfS, or in "A Matter of Honor", etc. Really, "Errand of Mercy" looks like a textbook attack by a decloaking Bird of Prey: our heroes never see the attack coming, and a torpedo volley hurts them quite a bit, but their return volley immediately destroys the seemingly puny opponent.

Klingons don't like poison, but they're fine with bombs, especially suicide bombs, as seen in "Reunion". Sneaking in under cloak and then pouncing is IMHO pretty much the same as suicide bombing, and might guarantee a Klingon warrior an immediate paradise place complete with a condo, a pool and a convertible flitter loaded with fierce females.

Timo Saloniemi