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Cloaking tech

ST has never been coherent regarding cloacking tech.

In "balance of terror", it seems something new, revolutionary.
In "Enterprise accident", it seems something new and revolutionary again

Then in Enterprise we saw that Xyrillian, Sulibans and even Romulans have cloaking devides a century before TOS.

And again, in discovery, cloaking tech is something new.
 
ST has never been coherent regarding cloacking tech.

In "balance of terror", it seems something new, revolutionary.
In "Enterprise accident", it seems something new and revolutionary again

Then in Enterprise we saw that Xyrillian, Sulibans and even Romulans have cloaking devides a century before TOS.

And again, in discovery, cloaking tech is something new.
But that seems more coherent than not, to me, when taken together. Similar to how successive advances in propulsion or holotechnology are each new and revolutionary, in context, and yet none are exclusive of there having been many preceding iterations.
 
ST has never been coherent regarding cloacking tech.

In "balance of terror", it seems something new, revolutionary.
In "Enterprise accident", it seems something new and revolutionary again

Then in Enterprise we saw that Xyrillian, Sulibans and even Romulans have cloaking devides a century before TOS.

And again, in discovery, cloaking tech is something new.
You forgot Star Trek 6, where it was something new and revolutionary again, that didn't last.

And TNG "Redemption", where a tachyon detection grid can detect cloaked ships.

And DS9 "The Die Is Cast", where the Romulans modify their cloaks so the Jem'Hadar can't detect them.

And Nemesis, where the Scimitar has a revolutionary new "perfect" cloak with no tachyon emissions.

You know... it's almost as if there's been an ongoing arms race between cloaking tech and sensors for 200 years.
 
If you watch the Klingon's in DSC, at least on the BoPs the cloak isn't perfect, they're flickering and the Discovery can track them, but not well enough for a weapons lock. (why didn't they just use manual aiming then?)
 
If you watch the Klingon's in DSC, at least on the BoPs the cloak isn't perfect, they're flickering and the Discovery can track them, but not well enough for a weapons lock. (why didn't they just use manual aiming then?)

Because space is big and the ships (both of them) are always moving. It's nigh impossible to aim at a flickering image that is probably thousands of kilometers away.
 
Nope, it's the concept of a ship being invisible which is merely theoretical at the time of "Balance of Terror"
How do you know what Spock is saying is "theoretically possible" isn't simply that this is the kind of tech at work in the particular situation at hand? There could readily be other possible explanations of what they'd seen; for instance, the ship could have teleported away, etc.

It never made sense to interpret him as meaning invisibility per se is only possible in theory and unknown in practice, because not only did they witness it in action before in "Charlie X" (TOS)—the episode immediately prior to this by production order, shown exactly three months earlier by airdate order—but they had just again witnessed it, right then, only a moment before. It already wouldn't be purely theoretical anymore just on that basis!

-MMoM:D
 
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Nope, it's the concept of a ship being invisible which is merely theoretical at the time of "Balance of Terror"

But the interpretation certainly holds for "The Enterprise Incident", where the emphasis is indeed on the cloak in question being "new". As in, not "old".

How do you know what Spock is saying is "theoretically possible" isn't simply that this is the kind of tech at work in the particular situation at hand?

"How do you know?" is a dangerous question here, because we can easily say that Spock "in reality" would never use those words if contrasting the current cloak against the well-known Klingon ones (which actually behave identically to the one in "BoT") or Xyrillian or Suliban ones or whatever.

But we can ignore that and say that Spock is theorizing on how exactly to defeat this latest model. It's just that we then lack the proper responses from the other characters, the most significantly the bit where our heroes remember that Romulans are historically infamous for creating visual obfuscation.

—but they had just again witnessed it, right then, only a moment before. It already wouldn't be purely theoretical anymore just on that basis!

Well, a couple of spinoffs later, we learn that Vulcans do love to debate whether the things they just witnessed are possible or not... :devil:

(In this instance, Spock would be especially entitled to, as he's contemplating an obvious illusion, a thing of debatable reality by definition.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you watch the Klingon's in DSC, at least on the BoPs the cloak isn't perfect, they're flickering and the Discovery can track them, but not well enough for a weapons lock. (why didn't they just use manual aiming then?)

This. I took it to mean the Klingon cloak did not make them completely invisible, just hard to see and get a sensor lock on.

The Romulan ship in Balance of Terror was invisible but couldn't go at warp while cloaked and it still wasn't a perfect cloak since the Enterprise was chasing them. So for my head canon at least we have a progression of cloak technology getting better, the Federation countering it and then counter measures to that so by the time of Nemesis we have a cloak that gives off no tachyon emissions and can fire while cloaked.

I dismiss the Suliban since they were interfered with by future guy who gave them future tech.
 
The Klingon cloaks of DSC and the Romulan cloak of "Balance of Terror" appear to perform identically:

- Both make the target invisible to the eye
- Both allow starships to track the target and determine its course
- Both make it impossible to accurately aim weapons at the target
- Both prevent the simultaneous use of weapons (although for what exact reason, we do not know)

Is invisibility actually conceptually new in "The Vulcan Hello"? The Shenzhou heroes take the visual distortions of the Light of Kahless in the stride, only debating how to most efficiently bypass them. When the Ship of the Dead decloaks, the heroes express brief amazement, though. And Georgiou tells Anderson that "The Klingon flagship has a stealth mode. It's some kind of cloaking screen, unlike anything we've ever seen, Admiral.
There may be more vessels out there that we don't know of".

So we are left uncertain whether "stealth modes" and/or "cloaking screens" are common or rare, but made aware that this particular type is unlike whatever Georgiou has previously seen. The very phrasing suggests she has seen at least some invisibility before...

Furthermore, Georgiou seems to think she needs to spell out the tactical implications to Admiral Anderson, who's neither Badmiral or Addledmiral, to quote the two Trek stereotypes.

Of course, cloaking is new to the Klingons! They, too, seem to have forgotten ENT "Unexpected" in the intervening century. Although for all we know, this is a plot point, and the Klingons who encountered the Xyrillians back then are the ones T'Kumva has to thank for his cloak.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think the cloaking technology given to the Suliban by Future Guy has something to with cloaking more 'commonly used' than in TOS.. maybe ENT (like FC) did spawn a slighly alternatieve universe..?
 
That's just it - cloaking is always "commonly used", in TOS, TNG, ENT and DSC eras alike, yet the heroes still are repeatedly surprised by it. That is, they encounter it, they get surprised by it, they encounter it again, they again express surprise. The very same heroes...

Basically only ENT has the excuse: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame still on you, fool me thrice and I'll finally begin to catch up but bear with me because I'm new to this Wonders of the Universe business". Others should know that invisibility is common and has been for millennia, even if an individual hero may be personally impressed by his first-ever (non-)sighting of invisibility.

Timo Saloniemi
 
SPOCK: I have a blip on the motion sensor. Could be the intruder.
KIRK: Go to full magnification.
SULU: Screen is on full mag, Sir.
KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.

"How do you know?" is a dangerous question here, because we can easily say that Spock "in reality" would never use those words if contrasting the current cloak against the well-known Klingon ones (which actually behave identically to the one in "BoT") or Xyrillian or Suliban ones or whatever.
Why wouldn't he, though? If we know Starfleet already has by this point tech/methods that can readily penetrate such cloaks—which we do—then we can quite plausibly believe that these would be automatically implemented as part of a starship's standard sensor suite (especially one assigned to Neutral Zone patrol), thus allowing any and all such specifically known cloaks to be discounted without comment as potential explanations for the effect seen. But this would still leave the theoretical possibility of one that isn't so known.

Thus, Spock is following essentially the same process of logic as seen in TUC, but silently, eliminating what he already knows cannot be the case from his verbal assessment and limiting it to what he knows can. Based on an already-well-established historical pattern of successive cloaks being cracked by successively better-attuned sensors, he posits a new "theoretically possible" cloak based on the same principle as known obsolete models, but improved in its efficiency—yet still coming at an even higher power cost, thus explaining why its use limits the vessel to impulse where others didn't, necessarily—to the point where it can once again almost fool the sensors rather than let off a whopping great energy surge that would be readily identifiable both on scanners and (at least under certain conditions) as a visible distortion on the viewscreen as seen in STIII, all with no need of the concept itself being novel or unproven in the slightest.

And again, on the other hand, it's alternatively equally plausible that he might not be contrasting any particular type of invisibility screen against another; he may only be contrasting the theoretical possibility that one of any sort is in play here against any other possible theory that might explain what's been seen. Legendary Thasian powers of de-materialization, teleportation, or indeed a spore drive!

But we can ignore that and say that Spock is theorizing on how exactly to defeat this latest model. It's just that we then lack the proper responses from the other characters, the most significantly the bit where our heroes remember that Romulans are historically infamous for creating visual obfuscation.
Well, this stuff is ancient history to them, hence Spock needing to provide a history lesson—probably a patchy and inaccurate one, based on records equally so—at the outset. No one seems to remember that Romulans are historically infamous for painting their ships with birds, either, until Stiles is able to remind them by virtue of having had relatives who personally fought in the war. Stiles wouldn't feel the need to preemptively remind them of the visual obfuscation, if he indeed knows of that too, because there's as yet been no indication it even might be in play at that point, and like all of them he would also surely know of and have faith in the standard prophylactic countermeasures put in place in the wake of both that war and the more recent one with the Klingons. (And by the point they come up lacking, Spock has already instantly beat him to the explanation, no doubt further fueling Stiles' ever-mounting chagrin at being shown up and dismissed by the soon-to-be-suspected Vulcan stooge, despite perceiving himself to be a better authority on the subject than anyone.)

Well, a couple of spinoffs later, we learn that Vulcans do love to debate whether the things they just witnessed are possible or not...:devil:

(In this instance, Spock would be especially entitled to, as he's contemplating an obvious illusion, a thing of debatable reality by definition.)
More like hold out for an explanation of what's been seen that doesn't defy their preconceptions of what is and isn't "theoretically possible"!;)

And, speaking of illusion, given his past experience with Talosians and salt vampires, Spock is also in something of an unique position to have this in mind as yet another "theoretically possible" explanation of his observations, held in reserve along with others due to it being internally judged less likely in the present circumstances than the theoretical possibility of an improved cloaking device!

-MMoM:D
 
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Still seems unclear and inconsistent.

Like 100,000 other unclear and inconsistent elements in Star Trek, you can either dig in heels and nitpick away because they exist in a piece of the franchise you "dislike," or you can accept creative rationalizations like those presented here and move on because they exist in a piece of the franchise that you "like."

The only thing more inconsistent than Star Treks varied canon are fan reactions to those inconsistencies.
 
You know... it's almost as if there's been an ongoing arms race between cloaking tech and sensors for 200 years.

You could be right, but in Balance of Terror They looked suprised of the cloaking tech per se, not because it was a new variant of a previously known tech
 
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