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Spoilers Classic Race All But Confirmed

DSC is using the Star Trek Universe as a canvas. It's not a blank-slate, it's a spin-off. It's building on top of what's already there. This is the series. This is what it was during the first season, it's how it'll be during the second season, and it's how it'll be -- if we should be so lucky to get it -- during the seventh.

And anyway, it's intended to be a prequel. If they introduced some totally new adversary you'd have a bunch of people in an uproar screaming "Why didn't we hear about them in TOS?!" Let's not even try to pretend that's not true. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So, they're just going to have a combination of old and new, then the chips will fall where they may. They're not looking to disgruntled TrekBBS Posters who don't know when it's time to move on for approval. They're only looking for the approval of subscribers and the people who actually watch.

Spoiler Alert: The Picard Series won't be a blank slate either. If you think having all the TOS stuff in DSC is bad, just wait until we have a series that takes place in 2399. You haven't seen anything yet. This is nothing. It's only going to get "worse" because now TNG, DS9, and VOY will be in play too.

For this reason, I'm pretty sure I'll prefer DSC over the Picard Series. Like 99.999% sure. But I'm not going to throw a fit just because the series will use stuff that's already there. I'm expecting them to. It'll just be a matter of how well they use it.

As far as the Actual Topic: Why should the Talosians be left to the dust-bin of the 1960s? I have no idea what they're going to do with them but just because they were used 50+ years ago doesn't mean they can't be used again.

Reality Check: There are some people out there who won't watch a series from the 1960s. It's unfortunate, but it's true. If bringing Talosians into the 21st Century is a way to get a modern audience familiar with them, I don't see a problem with it. Sometimes you have to reintroduce things because, realistically, you will have people in the audience who just don't want to watch something from half a century ago.

How often have we seen on this very board, people who can't get into TOS (or even the early seasons of TNG) because of how old it is? Again, I think that's too bad, but it's something that just is what it is, whether we like it or not.
 
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Lord Garth said:
DSC is using the Star Trek Universe as a canvas. It's not a blank-slate, it's a spin-off. It's building on top of what's already there. This is the series. This is what it was during the first season, it's how it'll be during the second season, and it's how it'll be -- if we should be so lucky to get it -- during the seventh.

And anyway, it's intended to be a prequel. If they introduced some totally new adversary you'd have a bunch of people in an uproar screaming "Why didn't we hear about them in TOS?!" Let's not even try to pretend that's not true. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So, they're just going to have a combination of old and new, then the chips will fall where they may. They're not looking to disgruntled TrekBBS Posters who don't know when it's time to move on for approval. They're only looking for the approval of subscribers and the people who actually watch.

Spoiler Alert: The Picard Series won't be a blank slate either. If you think having all the TOS stuff in DSC is bad, just wait until we have a series that takes place in 2399. You haven't seen anything yet. This is nothing. It's only going to get "worse" because now TNG, DS9, and VOY will be in play too.

For this reason, I'm pretty sure I'll prefer DSC over the Picard Series. Like 99.999% sure. But I'm not going to throw a fit just because the series will use stuff that's already there. I'm expecting them to. It'll just be a matter of how well they use it.

As far as the Actual Topic: Why should the Talosians be left to the dust-bin of the 1960s? I have no idea what they're going to do with them but just because they were used 50+ years ago doesn't mean they can't be used again.

Reality Check: There are some people out there who won't watch a series from the 1960s. It's unfortunate, but it's true. If bringing Talosians into the 21st Century is a way to get a modern audience familiar with them, I don't see a problem with it. Sometimes you have to reintroduce things because, realistically, you will have people in the audience who just don't want to watch something from half a century ago.

How often have we seen on this very board, people who can't get into TOS (or even the early seasons of TNG) because of how old it is? Again, I think that's too bad, but it's something that just is what it is, whether we like it or not.
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Good post. I think you articulated this argument very well. I agree that the Talosian inclusion, if done well, could really be a positive.
 
Time is the Fire said:
Ugh, good point.
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I think you can all but count on the Picard Series being about the Romulans aligning with the Cardassians to thwart a Breen incursion into Bajoran space after the Klingons go to war with the Ferengi due to Borg meddling in the affairs of the Q Continuum. Unfortunately, the Vorlon arrive from the 27th Century to warn Janeway and B4 that all depends on Picard's abilities to negotiate a truce between the Pakleds and the Shelliak. Thus begins an epic quest to contact the Bajoran Prophets for wisdom on how to solve the Vorta crisis.

And if you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not.
 
I Am Kirok said:
I think you can all but count on the Picard Series being about the Romulans aligning with the Cardassians to thwart a Breen incursion into Bajoran space after the Klingons go to war with the Ferengi due to Borg meddling in the affairs of the Q Continuum. Unfortunately, the Vorlon arrive from the 27th Century to warn Janeway and B4 that all depends on Picard's abilities to negotiate a truce between the Pakleds and the Shelliak. Thus begins an epic quest to contact the Bajoran Prophets for wisdom on how to solve the Vorta crisis.

And if you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not.
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Well, I'm a little interested in the Prophets ands Vorlon but the rest...

lpN6PzI.gif
 
I Am Kirok said:
I think you can all but count on the Picard Series being about the Romulans aligning with the Cardassians to thwart a Breen incursion into Bajoran space after the Klingons go to war with the Ferengi due to Borg meddling in the affairs of the Q Continuum. Unfortunately, the Vorlon arrive from the 27th Century to warn Janeway and B4 that all depends on Picard's abilities to negotiate a truce between the Pakleds and the Shelliak. Thus begins an epic quest to contact the Bajoran Prophets for wisdom on how to solve the Vorta crisis.

And if you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not.
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I'm bored already
 
Qonundrum said:
Has Trek ever been so incredibly small-universe syndrome in its entire existence?!!
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The novels and comics. Which is why nothing about Discovery feels fresh.

"We've got Spock's adopted sister!!!", nothing really special about that. We already have Spock's son and wife in the novels.
 
As far as small universes and the novels go, I really liked that Pike's Enterprise (featuring appearances of Number One, Spock, and Pike) were central players in one of Discovery's novels. It makes their appearance in the series much more organic, and I liked that all three ships have a shared history through their crews and also being members of the same fleet under Admiral Anderson. And the motifs of sibling/professional/personal rivalry and mentorship that we see in the show is weaved between the two crews as well in the books.

And I'm willing to bet that they'll mention that mission somehow in S2. They've already incorporated details into the series that were foreshadowed in the books, which seem to be very much intentional.
 
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Not everyone reads the novels. I've read surprisingly few of them. Most of the novels or comics I read were from back in the '90s (though I did read several of the '80s comics in the '90s and preferred DC's first run over its second run by a large margin). Very little afterwards. So the stuff I read, for the most part, was as a teenager and a long time ago.

Not all viewers are uber-fans. Even I only go up to a certain point. I don't buy all the merchandise, or novels and comics, and (before DSC) I even stopped watching after 1999. I don't buy everything and watch everything no matter what. If you want to talk about technobabble and detailed starship specs, I'm the last person you want to speak to. I'd try my best to keep up but you could talk circles around me. So, we all come in different stripes and I'm not going to have the same perspective.

"But the novels did this! The novels had that!" I'm sorry. I'm sure they're great. I'm sure I'd like them. Or most of them, anyway. But it's a non-issue to me. And even if I read them all, it would still be a non-issue to me because Star Trek is a TV series first, a movie series second, and everything else third.
 
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Lord Garth said:
Not everyone reads the novels. I've read surprisingly few of them. Most of the novels or comics I read were from back in the '90s (though I did read several of the '80s comics in the '90s and preferred DC's first run over its second run by a large margin). Very little afterwards. So the stuff I read, for the most part, was as a teenager and a long time ago.

Not all viewers are uber-fans. Even I only go up to a certain point. I don't buy all the merchandise, or novels and comics, and (before DSC) I even stopped watching after 1999. I don't buy everything and watch everything no matter what. If you want to talk about technobabble and detailed starship specs, I'm the last person you want to speak to. I'd try my best to keep up but you could talk circles around me. So, we all come in different stripes and I'm not going to have the same perspective.

"But the novels did this! The novels had that!" I'm sorry. I'm sure they're great. I'm sure I'd like them. Or most of them, anyway. But it's a non-issue to me. And even if I read them all, it would still be a non-issue to me because Star Trek is a TV series first, a movie series second, and everything else third.
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I would never advocate that everyone should read the books or that the show itself is incomplete without the books, that would be an insult to the show. But the books do, however, provide a lot of usable headcanon fodder, which is why I mention them from time to time.

If they portray Number One and Saru having already met once offscreen on a previous mission, then as a viewer I'd be like, "Oh, that's cool!"...but as a viewer/reader, I'd be like, "Nice! That's SUPER cool"
 
Cyrus said:
The football analogy works in a different way. scifi fans tend to pick a show as their team, and the other shows are competition. We used to have team DS9 vs team B5. Now we have team Discovery vs team Orville, though it is a much more friendly rivalry. And those on team Orville will always praise their show no matter what since that is the side they picked. Even if Discovery season 2 turns out to be the greatest in TV history, it will still pale in comparison to Orville among the team Orville. Any praise they offer will be done grudgingly and there will be complains about fanwank etc.
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See also "Marvel vs. DC," "Star Trek vs. Star Wars," "science fiction vs. fantasy," etc.

Never understood why fandom often seems so determined to pit one popular entertainment against another. They're not rival sports teams or political parties. We don't have choose sides or root for one against another. Just watch what you like: all, both, some, whatever.
 
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Spooky Ghosts of Qo'noS said:
I would never advocate that everyone should read the books or that the show itself is incomplete without the books, that would be an insult to the show. But the books do, however, provide a lot of usable headcanon fodder, which is why I mention them from time to time.

If they portray Number One and Saru having already met once offscreen on a previous mission, then as a viewer I'd be like, "Oh, that's cool!"...but as a viewer/reader, I'd be like, "Nice! That's SUPER cool"
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I have no problem with that.

My issue is with someone using "the novels did that!" as an argument against Discovery unless the staff writers are plagiarizing the novelists' work. Then that's totally different.

Basically, though, I'm all for using the novels to add to whatever is made TV-wise and not to subtract from it. Which I know we agree with. To do otherwise would be turning the novels against the show, and using them just to win an argument, which is the exact opposite of what tie-ins are intended for. "The novels already did that so the TV series shouldn't!" After 50 years all the "No they shouldn't"s would add up to a lot.

The most extreme end is the James Dixon path. "None of those shows line up with Franz Joseph and XYZ novels! It's all wrong, wrong, wrong!" Which isn't the same as what's being discussed here but it's an example of using what's not in a series to criticize what later series do.
 
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Greg Cox said:
See also "Marvel vs. DC," "Star Trek vs. Star Wars," "science fiction vs. fantasy," etc.

Never understood why fandom often seems so determined to pit one popular entertainment against another. They're not rival sports teams or political parties. We don't have choose sides or root for one against another. Just watch what you like: all, both, some, whatever.
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Something...something...tribalism

And, yes, I agree that other aliens are the same as humans ;)
 
Lord Garth said:
I have no problem with that.

My issue is with someone using "the novels did that!" as an argument against Discovery unless the staff writers are plagiarizing the novelists' work. Then that's totally different.

Basically, though, I'm all for using the novels to add to whatever is made TV-wise and not to subtract from it. Which I know we agree with. To do otherwise would be turning the novels against the show, and using them just to win an argument, which is the exact opposite of what tie-ins are intended for. "The novels already did that so the TV series shouldn't!" After 50 years all the "No they shouldn't"s would add up to a lot.

The most extreme end is the James Dixon path. "None of those shows line up with Franz Joseph and XYZ novels! It's all wrong, wrong, wrong!" Which isn't the same as what's being discussed here but it's an example of using what's not in a series to criticize what later series do.
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There are plenty of things in the novels I don't think the TV shows/movies should ever, EVER do, but not for the reasons you're pointing out haha. Sometimes you just don't want to see the same terrible mistakes made twice! But in seriousness, I totally agree with this! I wasn't clear on what you meant at first.
 
Ricky Spanish said:
FAP! FAP! FAP!
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Your kneejerk negativity without knowledge of how the Talosians will be utilized is tiresome and predictable. The show is set between The Cage and TOS, did you not expect aliens from either of those settings to show up? Criticizing the use of familiar characters like Captain Pike as over-reliance on nostalgia at least makes a bit of sense, but then once you already have him, of course it's logical to revisit the Talosians, since they had such a profound impact on his life. Did you cry foul every time they used Klingons or Romulans or other familiar species on TNG or DS9 or ENT?
 
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