Christmas in Star Trek

[Deks]

Tralis said:
Since when are we Americans mostly catholics? We certainly are mostly Christian, but I would bet my left nut that the statistics show Catholics aren't even a plurality.

The Catholic church has large numbers of followers who consider themselves as Christian.
That is why I used the word 'Catholic' because most people use it as an
alternative to 'Christian'.
2 different words to describe the same thing.

Christmas is secular as well as religious.

And I've never seen ANYTHING to support your contention that Starfleet personnel are atheists. NOTHING. Doesn't matter what Roddenberry believed or didn't believe. There's nothing on the screen that supports your statement.

So what if Christmas is secular as well as religious ?
It does have pre-Christian origins but they were not connected originally to religion and it didn't resemble anything into what religion turned it into.

As for SF personnel 'not' being atheists.
Let's see ... for the most part of TNG Picard was giving lessons to most races how belief in supernatural deities is an outdated concept that also has a tendency of holding people back in development (a shining example of what happened in our history for example).
SF officers have never been portrayed for the most part as religious.

I don't think it unrealistic. The Yule/Saturnalia/Solstice/Christmas/Kwanza/Hannukah etc. etc. is a universal aspect of humanity and has been for thousands of years.
Romantic love between 2 beings is also universal and it doesn't seem strange that many humanoid cultures would also revere it. Sure there are alien cultures where different numbers are the norm, or asexual reproduction, but the 2 is universal.
I think it would be much more unrealistic to have an entirely materialist, secular and agnostic future society.
But what I think IS realistic is the idea that FUNDAMENTALISM will be unheard of in Trek universe. The religions will survive but the fundamentalist nutjobs won't generally exist because the resource wars and such will be a thing of the past.

Universal ?
Not that I don't respect your opinion but that is the most far fetched (not to mention presumptuous) thing I have ever heard.

Religion and holidays stem from what humans MADE UP and set up as a norm for THEMSELVES (and there are numerous humans such as myself who don't follow such traditions and do not consider numerous things that humanity made up as 'important').
Numerous humans who grew up far away from religious influences never created similar 'rituals' for themselves.
They also were not barbaric or without compassion (as religion is not needed for an individual to behave in a 'moral' capacity ... merely mentioning this as a side note)

Romantic love between 2 beings is NOT universal because you have examples in human society that prove how romantic love can/does exist (in equal amount) between multiple partners (such as 'love triangles', 'quartets' and so forth).

We know so little about the world in which we live in (not to mention the universe itself) and people think they know what is 'universal'.
Humans made up all of those concepts and to say that something is universal (applicable to everyone/everything) when you have evidence that knocks that theory down is a bit foolish.
Now don't mistake me as I value your opinion certainly as you are entitled to it (just as I am to mine), but at the same time it seems like it's the 'same old' story that numerous people repeat who don't think outside the confines of what human society established.

I mean think about it.
In Trek you have numerous alien races and they just 'happen' to have developed the SAME values like humans ?
Hardly.
It's possible such instances could happen, but they would be rare.
We are talking about ALIEN cultures here.
Different planets, different evolutionary process, different history and technological development.

I know the writers were making the show from a human perspective, but come on ...
In Trek, alien races that are part of the Federation are almost exactly like humans.
Sharing the appreciation for life is one thing, but sharing religious customs and traditions is far fetched to be repeating itself from race to race.
Limiting and not very alien like if you ask me.

 

[RoJoHen]

To be clear, all Catholics are Christian.

Christian is a broader category and contains both Catholics and Protestants (non-Catholic Christians).

 

[Timo]

To be sure, Christmas is the one religious holiday that various alien species could most plausibly share.

That is, as long as those aliens represent the sort of life we know, in the broadest sense, they are likely to live on planets that have seasons and solistices. The celebration of rebirth at midwinter would almost automatically follow, and get mythically associated with biological birth and the concept of "gift of life". There you have 98% of Christmas already, rituals and all.

Agreed that there is no evidence that our Trek characters would all be sworn atheists, even if at least Picard assuredly is and Sisko might be. But there's no evidence that these folks would share any of today's religions, either (apart, of course, from having Christmas parties, no doubt in addition to other religious festivities that have gone unmentioned). Odds are, if the real world ran like Trek pseudohistory, by the 24th century there would be several human religions far more vigorous than the current ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Ro_Laren said:
Have we ever seen them celebrate Christmas in Star Trek (besides in Generations, which doesn't really count...)??? Did they ever even hint that it was still celebrated in that time period??

The scene in "Generations" most certainly does count. The personal nirvana Picard created for himself in the nexus was a family Christmas celebration. While this might not indicate a Christian religious faith on Picard's behalf, it does emphasize the existence of the Picard family Christmas traditions and the importance of those traditions to Picard himself.

As someone has already pointed out, in the TOS episode "Dagger of the Mind," Kirk meets Dr. Helen Noel (Hello! Can we get anymore blatant? ) at the Enterprise Science Lab Christmas Party.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, if a person were given unlimited realization of his wildest fantasies, might he rather not dream up something as far outside his experience as possible?

For Picard, it might be the Dickensian Christmas he had only read about, sprinkled with random modern features (such as the pulsing ornaments or the spacecraft given to one of the kids as a present) to make it more realistic. That could be just as exotic and enthralling to him as being the tribal chief of an African village full of pretty topless girls might be to Riker.

And of course, given Helen's surname, the "Christmas party" might be something the lab threw in honor of her alone, in the middle of August, after having dug up the obscure reference from some dusty history book in the next lab over.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BolianAuthor]

This is my take on religion in Trek...

It IS practiced... mostly on Earth, in the privacy of people's homes and places of worship... but as a "military" organization, it is not Starfleet's place to endorse any one faith, so it does not hold holiday observances in the "public" arena of a starship... BUT... individual crewpersons can honor their observances within the privacy of their own quarters, or a holodeck.

The choice to hold a Christams party on a ship could be Captain's discretion... similar to a candidate's political office choosing to hold a New Year's or Christmas "office party".

 

[Ezri]

Christmas is not on the show because of Earth religions that support the holiday or not. Star Trek is bigger than one country, even that it does have morals and customs of the United States and the Commonwealth of Nations. If we add Christmas, are we also going to have Boxer Day that is not honored within the United States and honored in the Commonwealth of Nations? What other holidays will sneak in, the 4 of July … that would go well with the Star Trek fans in the United Kingdom. It is a slippery slope, if you add in one holiday you got to think of adding others.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Timo said:
On the other hand, if a person were given unlimited realization of his wildest fantasies, might he rather not dream up something as far outside his experience as possible?

Sorry, but that reasoning doesn't fit with the other scenes we were shown from the Nexus. Every thing shown to us that Kirk created for himself in the nexus we were told were personally significant and came from his own life experiences (his mountain cabin, his dog, Antonia, his uncle's farm in Idaho). Therefore it is only logical to assume that since the personal nirvana Picard created for himself in the nexus was a family Christmas celebration, those traditions do exist and carry significant importance to Picard himself.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Deks]

Not necessarily.
Trek was labeled a 'family show' and Christmas is perceived to be 'family time'.
What we got in Generations was essentially a combination of both onscreen (the ultimate 'fanwank' so it would appeal to the religious viewers and push forward the 'family values').
Picard was pretty much anti religion throughout TNG, and what was done in Generations practically turned him into a more 'acceptable version for the public'.

At least that's how I see it.

Picard himself stated during TNG that he never regretted the fact he never had children or a family (his imaginary life not withstanding).
The loss of his nephew hit him hard, but Picards line about how 'there will be no more Picards' is a bit ... well, outdated.
Plenty people today use that excuse to push their kids into having children of their own.
He never really cared about such concepts one way or the other, and suddenly his character shifts to a completely different one (more acceptable for the audience).

I suppose we could argue that his imaginary life changed his perspective on things, but if that actually happened, he would find the time to start a family ... yet it never happened and again he repeated he doesn't exactly want one.

 

[misskim86]

I think you guys are really over doing the whole religious part of christmas. I bet if religion would one day suddenly disappear we'd still celebrate christmas because it's a tradition. Traditions are VERY hard to break. The USSR tried very hard to get rid of the traditions but they are still live and well, I don't see how such a strong tradition could get erased in 200 years

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

Religion isn't going to disappear. Picard seemed to be an atheist, but there's no reason not to believe other officers were quietly religious, agnostic, etc.

Christmas is both a religious and a secular holiday. Plenty of people celebrate one or both aspects.

There's no reason why aliens couldn't join in celebrating the secular aspects. Particularly when serving on a ship with a mostly human crew. Family is likely to be a universal, however much the specifics vary.

Starfleet officers presumably are interested in exploration, seeing other cultures and learning about them... like Phlox, most aliens in Starfleet would presumably have some interest in human traditions.

 

[McCoy]

Even today, I know plenty of non-Christians who celebrate Christmas (at home, not church obviously). They look at it as a celebration of love and family. If families persist, why wouldn't that attitude carry a few centuries into the future? And why wouldn't family-oriented non-humans join in then, the same as human non-Christians do now?

 

[exodus]

Deks said:

Picard was pretty much anti religion throughout TNG, and what was done in Generations practically turned him into a more 'acceptable version for the public'.

So explain why he was accepting of Worf and his religous practices as long as they didn't interfere with his duties? Worf's asking for suicide in "Ethics" is based on a Klingons belief system, which Picard respected & supported. He did it again when he refused to order Worf to donate blood to a Romulan to save his life. Picard also supported Bajorian religious beliefs too. While he didn't take part in them, he firmly respected the right of any people or being to have them. Picard is the Ambassidor for the Federation. It would be bad "forigen" policy if Picard were to be anti-religion. He was also an archeologist, the ceramic statue his mentor Prof. Galen gave him contained religious themes of ones soul. Picard was in awe of that.

 

[Ro_Laren]

Whoa Nellie said:

Ro_Laren said:
Have we ever seen them celebrate Christmas in Star Trek (besides in Generations, which doesn't really count...)??? Did they ever even hint that it was still celebrated in that time period??

The scene in "Generations" most certainly does count. The personal nirvana Picard created for himself in the nexus was a family Christmas celebration. While this might not indicate a Christian religious faith on Picard's behalf, it does emphasize the existence of the Picard family Christmas traditions and the importance of those traditions to Picard himself.

As someone else mentioned Picard's Christmas in Generations had more of a Dickens' feel than what one would imagine a 24th Century Christmas to be like. I always thought it was a fantasy Christmas taken out of the novels Picard read versus what a 24th Century Christmas would look like in Picard's home. That is why I said it doesn't count.... Of course I haven't seen Generations in a while. Did they mention replicating the Christmas ham or were any of the kids playing with tricorders or phasers??

 

[exodus]

Ro_Laren said:


As someone else mentioned Picard's Christmas in Generations had more of a Dickens' feel than what one would imagine a 24th Century Christmas to be like. I always thought it was a fantasy Christmas taken out of the novels Picard read versus what a 24th Century Christmas would look like in Picard's home.

People like Picard & Janeway still read books made from paper & pulp. Others like Sisko & Neelix still cooked real fresh food. Knowing that, a traditional Christmas in Trek shouldn't seem odd.

 

[Ro_Laren]

^ But would he make his entire family dress up in clothing that was from 500 years in the past??? Didn't they all wear Victorian clothing that was straight out of a Dicken's novel??

 

[exodus]

Ro_Laren said:
^ But would he make his entire family dress up in clothing that was from 500 years in the past??? Didn't they all wear Victorian clothing that was straight out of a Dicken's novel??

Would you call what Picard wore to go horseback riding modern? Look at how his brother family dressed in "Family".

Picard lived in the modern world but his style and mannerisims are very old fashioned.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

exodus said:
People like Picard & Janeway still read books made from paper & pulp. Others like Sisko & Neelix still cooked real fresh food. Knowing that, a traditional Christmas in Trek shouldn't seem odd.

exodus said:
Would you call what Picard wore to go horseback riding modern? Look at how his brother family dressed in "Family".

Picard lived in the modern world but his style and mannerisims are very old fashioned.

:thumbsup: Exactly! Not only does Picard ride horses, he also fences and speaks Latin. The Christmas scene Picard creates in the nexus takes place in his family home in Labarre France. It makes perfect sense considering what we've been told about Picard's father and brother being very traditional minded.

Edited to add: in the first season of TNG in the episode "Where No One Has Gone Before" we are shown Picard's mother looking somewhat Victorian sitting at a table with a very traditional silver tea set.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Deks]

exodus said:

Deks said:

Picard was pretty much anti religion throughout TNG, and what was done in Generations practically turned him into a more 'acceptable version for the public'.

So explain why he was accepting of Worf and his religous practices as long as they didn't interfere with his duties? Worf's asking for suicide in "Ethics" is based on a Klingons belief system, which Picard respected & supported. He did it again when he refused to order Worf to donate blood to a Romulan to save his life. Picard also supported Bajorian religious beliefs too. While he didn't take part in them, he firmly respected the right of any people or being to have them. Picard is the Ambassidor for the Federation. It would be bad "forigen" policy if Picard were to be anti-religion. He was also an archeologist, the ceramic statue his mentor Prof. Galen gave him contained religious themes of ones soul. Picard was in awe of that.

Simple ... being an atheist (and from what was presented in TNG, Picard was one) doesn't automatically mean you will not respect other people's personal rituals or beliefs.
There are of course limits to what a starship captain would allow ... but this was basically something that influenced Worf and his own life and was a personal decision outside of his duties.

Giving a religious frame of reference to archaeological artifacts (that were described that came from a religiously inclined race) is one thing.
Regardless of the fact I am an atheist, I would still listen to a person if they gave me a description of certain artifacts or events through their religious perspective ... I would not have shared their beliefs, but I also wouldn't dismiss what they told me.
I would merely translate it to a scientific side to see if I can work with it (which was done on multiple occasions in Trek).

 

[Anubis]

Deks said:
being an atheist (and from what was presented in TNG, Picard was one) doesn't automatically mean you will not respect other people's personal rituals or beliefs.

Thank you.