Christmas in Star Trek

[exodus]

Deks said:

exodus said:

Deks said:

Picard was pretty much anti religion throughout TNG, and what was done in Generations practically turned him into a more 'acceptable version for the public'.

So explain why he was accepting of Worf and his religous practices as long as they didn't interfere with his duties? Worf's asking for suicide in "Ethics" is based on a Klingons belief system, which Picard respected & supported. He did it again when he refused to order Worf to donate blood to a Romulan to save his life. Picard also supported Bajorian religious beliefs too. While he didn't take part in them, he firmly respected the right of any people or being to have them. Picard is the Ambassidor for the Federation. It would be bad "forigen" policy if Picard were to be anti-religion. He was also an archeologist, the ceramic statue his mentor Prof. Galen gave him contained religious themes of ones soul. Picard was in awe of that.

Simple ... being an atheist (and from what was presented in TNG, Picard was one) doesn't automatically mean you will not respect other people's personal rituals or beliefs.
There are of course limits to what a starship captain would allow ... but this was basically something that influenced Worf and his own life and was a personal decision outside of his duties.

Giving a religious frame of reference to archaeological artifacts (that were described that came from a religiously inclined race) is one thing.
Regardless of the fact I am an atheist, I would still listen to a person if they gave me a description of certain artifacts or events through their religious perspective ... I would not have shared their beliefs, but I also wouldn't dismiss what they told me.
I would merely translate it to a scientific side (which was done on multiple occasions in Trek).

Picard has never stated any belief nor disbelief in any higher being. It is unknown to what Picard is religiously, same as every other member of the crew outside of Worf. A man of Picards thinking & frame of mind could also easily be Buddist as easily as you assume he is Athiest.

However, the fact they showed Picard with a Christmas tree in "Generations" cements what Picard was, whether you choose to accept it or not. As far as I'm aware, what's shown on screen and written by the offical writers is canon.

 

[misskim86]

Picard was most likely Catholic since he was from France

 

[captcalhoun]

that's an incredibly dumb think to say. there's plenty of Muslims living in France that have crossed over from N. Africa, and Algeria in particular, besides what jews or non-catholic christians there may be.

strewth, even in Israel not everyone's a Jew and not everyone in Islamic nations is a Muslim.

 

[Timo]

From "Who Watches the Watchers?":

"Millennia ago, they abandoned all belief in the supernatural. And now you're asking me to sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition."

A pretty extreme condemnation of what is simply a belief in a higher being. Picard shows less of a hatred towards deism in "Where Silence Has Lease", where an originally very anti-religion dialogue with the fake Data was filed smoother for the aired version of the episode, but still gently chides (or, rather, ridicules) the belief in "gods of one's own image".

Picard might not be an atheist, but he very clearly has an agenda against most of the current takes on gods. He might be Buddhist, or member of some new religion, but not Christian.

Unless he's the sort of Christian I am, celebrating Christmas (or actually Yule) but firmly disbelieving in things like God, sin, salvation or life after death. Which seems to be the likeliest interpretation, as Picard would have been raised in an at least outwardly Christian atmosphere but has rebelled in many ways against his upbringing.

Basically, Picard still comes out as the classic type of atheist, threading extremely softly when people ask him about his beliefs or express their own. I do recommend the bit of monologue in "Where Silence Has Lease", even if the rest of the episode ranks among the worst in television history.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[exodus]

captcalhoun said:
that's an incredibly dumb think to say. there's plenty of Muslims living in France that have crossed over from N. Africa, and Algeria in particular, besides what jews or non-catholic christians there may be.

strewth, even in Israel not everyone's a Jew and not everyone in Islamic nations is a Muslim.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[misskim86]

Yeah because Jean Luc Picard is such an arabic name lol.


Picard dreamt of having a christmas Which means he's not a jew or a muslim or a hindu or a buddhist and since most christians in France are catholic by simple logic, Picard is most likely Catholic

 

[exodus]

misskim86 said:
Yeah because Jean Luc Picard is such an arabic name lol.

I work with a man who practices the muslim faith and his last name is Jean-Baptiste, so it can be possable.

Picards wife could be Catholic, while Picard remains Jewish. Many people more and more are growing up in homes of intergrated religion and/or culture.

 

[misskim86]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

My assumption is the most logical one. Jean Luc Picard could be a scientologist if you want to play the "could be" game

 

[Timo]

Hmm... So logically speaking, you are a transvestite?

We don't know if the 24th century still has forms where one has to fill one's religion. If Picard filled one, he might indicate "Christian", if the alternatives were "Muslim" and "Godless Bastard Who By Our Laws Shall Get No Social Security Or Frequent Flier Points", but he obviously doesn't hold some key Christian beliefs.

But probably, there would be more numerous alternatives in such a future form, and Picard might tick the one marked "Atheist, observes Christian customs in a sort of pan-American way but with British overtones that pretend to be French".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gojirob]

Picard's Christmas did seem a bit staid, but that can also be assigned to resisting the illusions of the Nexus, IMO.

At times, Picard did seem quite the 'fundie atheist', so to speak, very militant, needing to poo-poo ideas of higher powers as though to reinforce his own beliefs, but that can be put off to what he was dealing with when he got that way : beings like Q, the Edoan 'God' and the worshipful Vulcanoids of 'WWTW?'

I've written fic with the conflict, or perhaps the dichotomy, of Christmas and ST in mind. In one, an obnoxious ambassador demands all signs of Xmas be struck from the E-D while he visits, a request Picard ultimately finds as repellent as any he's encountered. The instant the jerk is beamed off, Picard has Wes flip a switch and all the stuff goes back. Wes even asks that his part in this be kept silent, since he's noticed some people resenting him of late.

Just for fun, I wrote a 'family Xmas from Hell' story for Voyager, with everyone at each other's throats, sometimes over nothing, capped off with yet another false start on a way home. Oddly, this remains one of my faves (of my own stuff, not all Xmas stuff)

The only one I'm going to link is this one , featuring an attempt at a multi-cultural Xmas aboard DS9 that just goes plain wrong.

Back to topic, at the end of one, everybody sings 'an ancient hymn' ---being John Lennon's 'Happy Xmas (War Is Over). Point being, recently begun songs and traditions from our POV will all seem as timeless to the folks of ST as Christmas Trees and Cards seem to us.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

It is my impression that in the time it took humanity to become a space faring civilization earth had become a mostly atheist society, one devoted more to science and reason over religion and faith. In such a society, questioning someone as to what religion they followed would be like asking us what Clans or Tribes our prehistoric ancestors had once been a part of, it is no longer a relevant question in their society. That is not to say that people wouldn't have spiritual beliefs, Kirk mentions believing in a god in the episode “Who Mourns For Adonis”, there is a reference to the Hindu Festival of Lights somewhere in the next generation, but those beliefs are a much less important part of the average persons life. As for Picard, well we don't really know what he believes but his speech in “Where Silence Has Lease” seems to suggest more agnosticism than anything else. We do know that Picard has a strong sense of family and tradition so his Christmas Tree could be seen more as a family tradition and that Christmas in an atheist society is much more about family than about religion. Anyway, that's my take on it, for the record I am somewhere between atheism and agnosticism myself.

Oh, and for the record, I know a family of Buddhists who celebrate Christmas because they like the sense of family, all I'm saying is even in our own century religion is not always as rigid or clear a thing as this discussion makes it seem.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Ezri said:
Christmas is not on the show because of Earth religions that support the holiday or not. Star Trek is bigger than one country, even that it does have morals and customs of the United States and the Commonwealth of Nations. If we add Christmas, are we also going to have Boxer Day that is not honored within the United States and honored in the Commonwealth of Nations? What other holidays will sneak in, the 4 of July … that would go well with the Star Trek fans in the United Kingdom. It is a slippery slope, if you add in one holiday you got to think of adding others.

When the hell did I say that other holidays like Boxing Day are not honored? Don't try to turn this into a national argument, because it's not. Read my post first, before you make comments like that.

 

[HIj'Qa]

Crewman47 said:
Now this all depends on how one converts stardates but even though Memory Alpha states that Voyager's End Game took place in the beginning of 2378 the stardate given for the episode roughly gives a date of 22nd December 2377, 3 days before Christmas. Now I guess if it was this close to Christmas then the crew might have mentioned it as it would've probably been the best Christmas for most of the crew as they would be spending it with there families. But I guess the writers never thought about this when doing the episode.

Enterprise's Bound took place December 27, 2154. From the shots of the bare corridors they un-decked the halls pretty darn fast.

 

[Timo]

It might be that the crew of NX-01 just didn't happen to feature any Christians, or Yule-minded people. OTOH, how long would the corridors of today's warships be allowed to wallow in the grimy aftermath of a party? How messy would the party be allowed to get in the first place? Would regulations decree no more than one mistletoe per deck?

Also, I doubt any holidays are honored as holidays out there. Every day in deep space is a working day (even if it's eternal night outside). Thanksgiving in "Charlie X" was, at least. So the folks celebrating would have to tone it down to allow their comrades on Gamma watch to perform their duties efficiently as ever.

I would think that the diverse folks aboard the E-D would between them have at least two important holidays for every day of the year. Most would (have to) go unobserved, unless you ventured into private quarters to have a closer look.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[3D Master]

Why is this discussion even going on?

Everyone who wants to celebrate Christmas, celebrates it, those who don't, don't.

Much like in the free countries of the world today.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Deks said:

Religion and holidays stem from what humans MADE UP and set up as a norm for THEMSELVES
Romantic love between 2 beings is NOT universal because you have examples in human society that prove how romantic love can/does exist (in equal amount) between multiple partners (such as 'love triangles', 'quartets' and so forth).

I am talking universal in terms of energy and spirit, not in culture. Humans did not make December 21st the solstice. There is an energy to that time, on Earth at least, regardless of culture or choosing to celebrate it or not. I disagree with you that religions are entirely made up by humans. The core and the metaphor of them hold universal truths which include humanity, but are also much larger.
I suppose I am presumptuous in the sense of my not being entirely agnostic. "The Great God Pan is alive..."
And of the number two and romance, this I find universal as well for reasons beyond any culture. I have known people to live in Triads and Quads, they are just as stable and volatile as people in Twos. But the basis seems to stem from Two. Two is the first division of One. Yin and Yang. This is not human invention. It is human perception of reality, and it is very interesting how there are indeed universal aspects of all the worlds cultures, religions, and mythologies.
Also known as Star Wars

 

[3D Master]

CaptainStoner said:
I am talking universal in terms of energy and spirit, not in culture.

Doesn't exist.

Humans did not make December 21st the solstice. There is an energy to that time, on Earth at least, regardless of culture or choosing to celebrate it or not.

Not true at all. You only perceive an energy on December 21st and only on the northern hemisphere because it is the longest night. Darkness the longest - a primal something inside of you fears it, and then nervousness you perceive as energy, but it isn't.

I disagree with you that religions are entirely made up by humans. The core and the metaphor of them hold universal truths which include humanity, but are also much larger.

They are not larger than humanity. They only seem universal because they come from the same psyche, and the same planet and thus the same natural world, and events on that world. And even between those, there are devastating differences still. The biggest probably being what is evil. In the Judea-Christian-Islamic tradition, the god of the underworld, the horned one, Satan is the evil one. Yet in the traditions before that, surrounding it, it's the exact opposite. The god of the underworld, Saturn, Cernunnos, is the guardian of the light, protector of mankind, and the one who beats back the darkness and the demons back into hell during the winter solstice so spring and summer might once more return.

Indeed, if one follows the line of Enki-Eya-Ya(weh)-Osiris-Hades-Saturn Christianity these days, calls their very own god the devil and the evil one.

I suppose I am presumptuous in the sense of my not being entirely agnostic. "The Great God Pan is alive..."
And of the number two and romance, this I find universal as well for reasons beyond any culture.

Which is just plain false. Plenty of cultures have couplings going on with multiple partners, there's nothing universal about it. Let alone to biologies that has more than two genders.

I have known people to live in Triads and Quads, they are just as stable and volatile as people in Twos. But the basis seems to stem from Two.

The only basis you can mention with humans is that we have two genders. And even then, cultures defy the number two.

Two is the first division of One.

It's the first multiple of one.

Yin and Yang. This is not human invention. It is human perception of reality, and it is very interesting how there are indeed universal aspects of all the worlds cultures, religions, and mythologies.

It IS human invention. How much it also happens to be true is anyone's guess. A species with three genders will very likely device a system with three principles, or even more. And in fact, it does NOT exist in all our world's cultures, religions and mythologies. It most certainly does not exist in the Judea-Christian-Islamic traditions, let alone the Pagan ones.

 

[misskim86]

I still find it impossible to think that 2000 years of religion disappears in 200 years, just how did this happen? did people suddenly stop being religious? Did they outlaw religion and kill everyone who was religious? Burnt all bibles?

200 years aren't many generations, erasing religion in that time would be social engineering unheard of, especially if done peacefully

Also a war tend to make people to resort to faith only, a war would be directly contra productive to erasing religion

 

[CoveTom]

Tralis said:
Since when are we Americans mostly catholics? We certainly are mostly Christian, but I would bet my left nut that the statistics show Catholics aren't even a plurality.

Depends on how you're breaking it down. Christianity is certainly the dominant faith in America. I believe the statistic is up around 82% of the population identifying themselves as Christian.

If you want to lump all Protestant denominations together, then Protestants are the majority of Christians in the US, around 52% of the population, while Catholics are about 24%. However, if you break it down into individual demoninations, Catholics are by far the largest Christian denomination in the US, again with that 24% of the population. The largest Protestant denomination, Baptist, is only about 16.3% of the population.

So you could argue it either way. Catholicism is clearly the largest single religious denomination in the United States, but all Protestant denominations taken as a whole are far larger a percentage of the population than Catholicism.