Christianity and Star Trek

[RyanKCR]

3D Master said:

Alidar Jarok said:

3D Master said:

seekertwo said:
Depends....are we talking about the man-made religious traditions and practices created over the last 2000 years or the actual teachings of Jesus Christ and his disciples?

There's a big difference...

Uh, seeing as Jesus Christ and his disciples never existed, not really. Well, okay, there's a difference, the one did not exist, the rest did.

Let's not debate this here. If you want to debate the existance of Jesus Christ, take it somewhere else.

I'm not. The point is that there's no difference. ALL of it is man made; from the earliest to the latest.

Oh, no....not again...............!

Stating that as fact does not make it one. And your post indicates either to debate or to irritate.

(for fun) Christ is not man-made but real...I've met Him.

I have a Christian friend who is into Trek who uses the fact that in a lot of instances the Enterprise is usally saved in the nick of time as encouragement to me during my medical ordeals I'm going through.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

I'm Christian, so, yeah. We can enjoy Star Trek. Maybe I couldn't be Captain Kirk and bed every cute alien that comes along, but in every other respect, the Captains were pretty good models for moral standards and self dicipline.

 

[Balthier the Great]

Chuckling said:
Lots of people here will have seen "Trekkies" and "Trekkies 2".

2 questions:

1. Is there a difference between people who change character when they don the uniform or costume and those who adopt Trek as a Lifestyle choice?

2. Is taking your hobby seriously different to obsession?

Thanks everyone. I'm almost done with the questions.

Chuckling

1.) I'm not going to speak for Trekkies because I've never known anyone who's gone to a Trek convention. But, if the cosplay thing is much like its Anime cousin, it's kind of "adopt a persona for the afternoon" not so much a permanent "I'm Sailor Moon".

I've seen some people take other cosplay things too far -- especially in historical reenactments. Most people at these things are fairly normal. Then there are the people who think they're actually *in* the American Civil war. (some of my discomfort comes from the fact that these people carry and target shoot with black powder rifles).

For most people it's blowing off steam, at least as far as I can see. I don't think a guy in a beard dressed as Sailor Moon is taking himself all *that* seriously.

2.) I think it's definately a degree of obsession. My "ballpark" for determining whether someone is obsessed is "Can they turn it off". For Trek, I'd say you'r obsessed if you schedule your life around watching Trek and do little or nothing nonTrek. If you watch Trek, play basketball, and can hold a fairly reasonable conversation without mentioning Trekish things, you're not obsessed. Being hardcore and learning klingon is on that path. Of course I went through that stage at 12 -- Klingon AND Quenya, BTW (I still love languages and stuff, though other than Esperanto, I tend to stick to actual languages).

 

[Chuckling]

Thanks everyone! Much appreciated!

Chuckling

 

[-Brett-]

Chuckling said:
I've been asked to write an article about whether or not Christians (of any denomination) can or should be Trekkies/Trekkers.

Christians can and should like whatever shows they want to like. I just don't see what appeal Star Trek can have for them.

The Star Trek writers treat evolution as fact (often getting it wrong, but treating it as fact just the same). Creationism doesn't get the same treatment.

Christians believe that deep down, humanity is "teh evil!!!". Star Trek has repeatedly taken the position that deep down, humanity is basically okay.

Characters sexual practices run the gauntlet from promiscuous to celibate, and none of them are definitively depicted as right or wrong.

Even TOS's "son of god" reference, which was painfully out of place in the episode and probably forced on them by the network anyway, can't be taken as an endorsement of christianity. The concept of a deity having mortal offspring appears in a number of cultures here on Earth. It can't be that rare in the Trekverse. There's no reason to think they were referring to Jeebus.

Apart from wanting everyone in power to be a white male and having a peculiar fear of homosexuals, Star Trek doesn't have anything in common with christianity. Apart from those two similarities, Star Trek is about as anti-christian as you can get.

 

[cobalt1365]

Kegek said:
^
Depends on the manifestation of obsession, doesn't it? Obsession's only really problematic if it leads to people, oh, I don't know, stalking Star Trek stars.

Watching the episodes over and over again in one's basement while mouthing the words out, however, is harmless enough.

To return to the topic at hand, though, no discussion of this issue is complete without "Bread and Circuses", an episode which ends with the revelation that a planet with 20th century technology - but ruled by imperial Rome - has a minority of persecuted Christians. This causes some generally positive observations on Christianity from the crew (even the logical alien, who describes it as 'a philosophy of peace and total brotherhood'), but also the idea that Christ was actually present on this planet... an avenue perhaps wisely left unexplored.

Gene Roddenberry's atheism is well documented, and the theme of Kirk destroying false gods in TOS - while arguably similar to prophets doing the same in the Old Testament - was not meant to exclude the Abrahamic faiths. The culmination of that idea was in the aborted film idea he had, 'The God Thing', where Kirk, after vanquishing Vaal and Landru and a dozen other fictive gods who are really computers, would go after the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who has a similar mechanical origin.

I'm also reminded of the episode "Who Mourns for Adonis?" when Apollo asked to become the god of the Enterprise crew, and Kirk firmly replies "we find The One sufficient." It certainly goes to show that, according to Roddenberry's or at least the writer's perspective, Christianity still plays a major role in the 23rd Century, if you believe that The One refers to the most prevalent God of the Abrahamic faiths of this century.

Conversely, in Movie V The Final Frontier Kirk conjectures that "God may be in here... the human heart," a distinctly atheistic view. And given Roddenberry's generally atheistic beliefs, I'm not sure exactly what to think about the presence of Christianity in Star Trek.

However, as a Christian, I can say without a doubt that it is a lot better than most shows out there, encouraging positive morals, self-sacrifice, love and benevolence. Those are traits highly promoted in Christianity, and I can say that I wouldn't complain about mentioning Star Trek in a positive sermon illustration.

 

[Deks]

Kirks line in 'Who mourns for Adonis' is subject to personal interpretation.
He could have meant that for those who have religious beliefs only 1 god is sufficient.

Personally I am an atheist.
If anything I really start to cringe when Trek introduced religious based words for curses and all which are used in present day society.
To me that ruined the show a bit because if someone is an atheist, then don't you think the said person will at least try to get rid of religious based words ?

For example, there are numerous episodes in which a character got out of danger due to another character, and the saved one said: 'thank goodness'.
I was like, `what the heck` ?
Or usage of famous lines such as: 'thank God' ... for what ?
Because the chief managed to restore weapons just in time ?
Credit where it's due please.
god had 0 to do with it.

Introduction of such things, religion overall, and reduction of characters self control was something that ruined the show for me.

Trek humans were not perfect.
They merely behaved in a civilized manner and as people who had better emotional control.
Such people exist in this day and age, so to say the characters were portrayed as unrealistic in their behavior is not true because if anything, the show gave a message that majority of the people became more civilized.

The writers should eliminate religion and related stuff from the majority of Trek and place it into the minority, because quite frankly, in my opinion, with introduction of religion, Trek lost something.

 

[Kegek]

cobalt1365 said:
Conversely, in Movie V The Final Frontier Kirk conjectures that "God may be in here... the human heart," a distinctly atheistic view.

Pantheist, perhaps, but not atheist. (An atheist wouldn't find God even the heart.) It actually resembles similar Christian tropes about finding God within oneself rather than looking for external miracles.

A stronger atheist example is probably "Who Watches the Watchers?", where Picard laments the idea that the Mintakans may fall back into religious faith. The wording strongly implies he's condemning all forms rather than the particular animism they no longer follow.

 

[Timo]

Why wouldn't an atheist acknowledge the existence of, say, the Christian God? After all, he can acknowledge the very real existence of Sherlock Holmes as a fictional character, can't he? This "God in our hearts" would for him be an observable phenomenon, namely the wide acceptance of a certain fictional construct.

As for the semantics of Kirk's "we find The One sufficient", this One need not be a deity. Kirk could look up to a flesh-and-blood authority figure instead of a deity, and call him or her or it "The One" (or perhaps "Thiwon the Great, the Andorian philantrophe who has brought so much happiness to our world"). Or he could follow a deity-free philosophy where the concept of The One supplants personified gods, or gods in general.

On the issue of atheists using religious vocabulary, wouldn't a dedicated Christian be the more likely one to avoid mentioning the Lord's name? If somebody goes "God, you're dense!" or "Holy saints, Batman!" a lot, IMHO he is unlikely to feel strongly or seriously about religion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kegek]

Timo said:
Why wouldn't an atheist acknowledge the existence of, say, the Christian God? After all, he can acknowledge the very real existence of Sherlock Holmes as a fictional character, can't he? This "God in our hearts" would for him be an observable phenomenon, namely the wide acceptance of a certain fictional construct.

That's not what the phrase refers to, though. It's about the living existence of a personal relationship with God. Besides, if he were an atheist making such an observation, wouldn't he say 'God is in their hearts?'

As for the semantics of Kirk's "we find The One sufficient", this One need not be a deity. Kirk could look up to a flesh-and-blood authority figure instead of a deity, and call him or her or it "The One" (or perhaps "Thiwon the Great, the Andorian philantrophe who has brought so much happiness to our world"). Or he could follow a deity-free philosophy where the concept of The One supplants personified gods, or gods in general.

Well, the full phrase is: 'Mankind has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient.' In context, it appears the word one means one god. This need not necessarily be the Abrahamic god - as The God Thing has pointed out, it could just as easily be a Presocratic abstraction. But it's a reference to at least monoaltrism (the exclusive devotion to one god) if not monotheism (the belief that only one god exists). The difference between those is, in the former, other gods might really exist, you just don't worship them... in the latter, only your god is real.

On the issue of atheists using religious vocabulary, wouldn't a dedicated Christian be the more likely one to avoid mentioning the Lord's name?

As a blasphemy, yes. But Christians are known to use the word 'God' to refer to their deity in a discussion, believe it or not.

(Not quite the same thing as the sacred name, or tetragammon, which in Judaism at least isn't supposed to be uttered. Various Christian faiths are more elastic on that one.)

 

[Balthier the Great]

Deks said:
Kirks line in 'Who mourns for Adonis' is subject to personal interpretation.
He could have meant that for those who have religious beliefs only 1 god is sufficient.

Well, I don't see that as radically different than what a modern American might say. We have a secular government, yet many people here are personally religious. I don't think that's the same as being Athiest, just that religion is fairly private.

Personally I am an atheist.
If anything I really start to cringe when Trek introduced religious based words for curses and all which are used in present day society.
To me that ruined the show a bit because if someone is an atheist, then don't you think the said person will at least try to get rid of religious based words ?

In the 1800's people said "By Jove", I don't think anyone was praying to the Roman god Jupiter. It was an old figure of speech, not a true endorsement of Jupiter and not a prayer.

Actually, if you've ever thrown a coin into a fountain for luck, you're reenacting an ancient celtic pagan practice. In ancient times, wells and streams and rivers were associated with pagan gods, and to win their favor, you'd toss them a coin or two. We still do that, though other than modern pagans, I doubt people really believe that Brigit wants their pennies. It's part of our culture and even though the meaning isn't the same, the old customs die hard.

Trek humans were not perfect.
They merely behaved in a civilized manner and as people who had better emotional control.
Such people exist in this day and age, so to say the characters were portrayed as unrealistic in their behavior is not true because if anything, the show gave a message that majority of the people became more civilized.

I think a lot of that *will* happen to us when we actually start living and working in space. When you have to depend on people of other races and religions to survive, you can't exactly be a racist, a muslimophobe, or an antisemite. Not because they're evil (they are), but because the muslim guy is in charge of fixing the power generator and the jewish guy is in charge of life support systems. Without them, you die.

The writers should eliminate religion and related stuff from the majority of Trek and place it into the minority, because quite frankly, in my opinion, with introduction of religion, Trek lost something.

I'm not sure. I mean, we still don't see endorsement of the idea of god/gods. It's simply figures of speech that are still a part of our language. I'd bet if you sneezed next to an Athiest, he'd answer with "bless you" as in short for "God bless you". It doesn't mean he believes, just that it's a customary response.

 

[3D Master]

Deks said:
Kirks line in 'Who mourns for Adonis' is subject to personal interpretation.
He could have meant that for those who have religious beliefs only 1 god is sufficient.

Personally I am an atheist.
If anything I really start to cringe when Trek introduced religious based words for curses and all which are used in present day society.
To me that ruined the show a bit because if someone is an atheist, then don't you think the said person will at least try to get rid of religious based words ?

For example, there are numerous episodes in which a character got out of danger due to another character, and the saved one said: 'thank goodness'.
I was like, `what the heck` ?
Or usage of famous lines such as: 'thank God' ... for what ?
Because the chief managed to restore weapons just in time ?
Credit where it's due please.
god had 0 to do with it.

Introduction of such things, religion overall, and reduction of characters self control was something that ruined the show for me.

What kind of nonsense is that? I'm an Atheist and I not once tried to remove "god" or "jesus" from my cursing and other figures of speech. Language doesn't work that way. In fact, it would be the believers that would try to remove it, exactly because it's so bad to do so in god's eyes. Me, dude doesn't exist, so I couldn't care less.

Trek humans were not perfect.
They merely behaved in a civilized manner and as people who had better emotional control.
Such people exist in this day and age, so to say the characters were portrayed as unrealistic in their behavior is not true because if anything, the show gave a message that majority of the people became more civilized.

The writers should eliminate religion and related stuff from the majority of Trek and place it into the minority, because quite frankly, in my opinion, with introduction of religion, Trek lost something.

It IS in the minority!

Kegek said:
Well, the full phrase is: 'Mankind has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient.' In context, it appears the word one means one god.

Actually, taking those sentences literally, would mean that The One can't be a god, because he just said mankind had no need of any.

 

[Kegek]

3D Master said:
Actually, taking those sentences literally, would mean that The One can't be a god, because he just said mankind had no need of any.

He said mankind had no need for gods, plural. 'We find'the one' (one of the things referred to) 'sufficient'. Basic rejection of polytheism in favour of monoaltrism and/or monotheism.

 

[Mark de Vries]

-Brett- said:
Christians can and should like whatever shows they want to like. I just don't see what appeal Star Trek can have for them.

I suggest you go and do some more research, then.

The Star Trek writers treat evolution as fact (often getting it wrong, but treating it as fact just the same). Creationism doesn't get the same treatment.

I'm a Catholic, and I accept the theory of evolution. Star Trek is a fiction show, and they can treat that theory any which way they please. They choose to use it as a basis for (sometimes) good stories. They don't go out of their way to attack creation stories. Nothing wrong with that.

Christians believe that deep down, humanity is "teh evil!!!". Star Trek has repeatedly taken the position that deep down, humanity is basically okay.

Not true. Humanity has a tendency towards evil, yes. We see that in trek too (all those corrupt admirals?), not to mention the magnificent villains they've given us, who, despite often being alien, are based on human concepts, needs and emotions.

Characters sexual practices run the gauntlet from promiscuous to celibate, and none of them are definitively depicted as right or wrong.

So does real life. I can disagree with what I read in the papers, and I can disagree with what Trek shows me, sure. The fact that an episode may seemingly endorse any sexual preference you wish to mention, does not prevent me from enjoying the overall storylines which are after all not about these things, but about people and human interaction. And that always makes for interesting stories.

Jeebus.

Just had to get that in, didn't you?

Apart from wanting everyone in power to be a white male and having a peculiar fear of homosexuals, Star Trek doesn't have anything in common with christianity.

Yes, because Christianity is only about racism and fear. Please. Saint Paul wrote about the three greatest concepts in life: faith, hope and love (and love being the greatest of those). I find these concepts in Trek.

 

[Doomsday]

For the most part a very thoughtful and respectful treatment of this subject...

I am a Christian, and have often thought about these issues, but have avoided discussing them in these forums because the few times I've seen them discussed, the thread usually gets pretty ugly.

Like politics, the subject of religion gets so many (on both sides) worked up into a lather.

But this discussion has been mostly respectful on both sides.

My 2 cents, I have been a Christian since 1982, and a Trekker since the sixties. In fact, most of the Trekker friends I have known over the years have been Christians.

Clearly, there have been episodes that have displayed a hostility to religion(like the aforementioned Who Watches the Watchers). But more often than not, Trek has been at least tolerant of the idea of religion, even in the 23rd and 24th century. DS9 being the best example.

As a Christian, I certainly do not always agree with what individual characters may say or do as it relates to questions of philosophy or morality. But I have never expected any thing I watch to represent my personal worldview and beliefs 100%. That's just not going to happen. So I simply don't get worked up about it.

Hearing a Trek character say something negative about faith or God (or some other topic, for that matter) doesn't change what I believe. It's no threat to me that Rodenberry, and other writers, may be athiest or humanistic, or new age, or whatever.

I came to Trek as a fan because I enjoy the interesting charcaters, the adventure, the wonder of discovery, the challenges they face, etc.

I can enjoy and appreciate those stories whether I agree philosophically or not.

I don't need a TV show to tell me how to believe or live my life.

Another thing that has kept me in the Trek fandom family, was something Gene himself said. I'm sure many of you have a copy (or at least heard) the "Inside Star Trek" record he put out back in the 70's, with recordings of interviews he had with Asimov, Shatner, Lenard, and also recordings of some of his lectures.

When talking about tolerance, he said something like (and I'm pulling from fallible memory here, so I know it's not exact), "...that mankind will grow up on the day that he learns not just to tolerate, but to take a positive delight in the differences in lifeforms and ideas..."

So I always thought that a true Trekker, who agreed with Rodenberry's ideals, would always welcome a Christian into fandom, even if they didn't agree with their worldview, simply because it's the essence of what Rodenberry says he strove for. The basis for IDIC.

Ultimately, I come to a TV show to entertain me. And imperfect though it may be at times, Trek has always entertained me. I don't feel threatened by it just because I am a Christian.

And that's enough for me.

And thanks to all who've been part of this discussion so far, for the good points made.

 

[Hoser]

-Brett- said:
The Star Trek writers treat evolution as fact (often getting it wrong, but treating it as fact just the same). Creationism doesn't get the same treatment.

Not all Christians believe in Creationism.

Christians believe that deep down, humanity is "teh evil!!!".

Not all Christians believe in Original Sin.
(Note: the concept that we are evil from birth due to the original sin)

The concept of a deity having mortal offspring appears in a number of cultures here on Earth. It can't be that rare in the Trekverse. There's no reason to think they were referring to Jeebus.

It was obviously meant to mean Jesus, from Uhura's statement, the whole 'sun/Son' misunderstanding that the typical viewer of the time would pick up on, to the point that it was supposed to be a 20th century Rome.

Apart from wanting everyone in power to be a white male and having a peculiar fear of homosexuals, Star Trek doesn't have anything in common with christianity.

Neither do those things. They might have something to do with some Christians. But even every Starfleet officer didn't follow every tenet of Starfleet principles.

Apart from those two similarities, Star Trek is about as anti-christian as you can get.

No. Honestly, Christianity shares key concepts with Star Trek, which makes it attractive to many Christians.

 

[cobalt1365]

^ Hear Hear!!! I am also pleasantly suprised that this thread has remainded so civil, and as such has resisted the need to be moved to TNZ.

 

[CaptainStoner]

What a great topic, so long as its warp core remains stable.

A lot depends on the wisdom of the individuals. But it is not the wise who are represented by the more extreme elements of any given religion.
But I think even a serious, devout Christian could be a Trekkie. They are drawn to the universal good of Trek, and would see the "Satanic" elements as something to resist in it.
Though I am not a Christian myself, I cede that the TNG male Skant may have been Satanically inspired. And I think there may be subliminal cult programming in TMP...during the exterior Enterprise shots my crown chakra opened up and the Great Bird of the Galaxy came down...many were saved that day...
The cosplay (I assume this is a term for roleplaying) would be the same issue. A serious Christian will have to view it Satanic (I'm a D&D'er from the 80's btw...) but a serious, proslytizing Christian is such a bigger nutjob than a Trekkie, that Star Trek would be the least of their problems.

Bottom line though is, I'll bet you the largest percentage of Trek fans are one kind of Christian or another, and are good, grounded Christians, not top caught up in the "chosen people" myth, and can ejoy their Trek just fine and still go to Church on Sunday. They just can't take the Eucharist. Just kidding.

 

[Deks]

What kind of nonsense is that? I'm an Atheist and I not once tried to remove "god" or "jesus" from my cursing and other figures of speech. Language doesn't work that way. In fact, it would be the believers that would try to remove it, exactly because it's so bad to do so in god's eyes. Me, dude doesn't exist, so I couldn't care less.

Calm down, would you ?
The thing is I meant that one in the manner that usage of religiously based words and curses irked me when I heard it spoken by the characters in the show.
What was the purpose exactly ?
Why would a person that does not hold any beliefs in theism and belongs to a society that moved beyond such things centuries ago (from their perspective) use theistic words and religiously based insults 360 years from now ?

In earlier seasons of TNG, they were rarely (if ever) using that kind of language ... characters were less presumptuous, used neutral words, and later on it became common practice to reverse everything around.

Personally I eliminated religiously inclined words from my own vocabulary (meditation comes in handy you know).
Granted that not everyone are the same, but personal experience showed me it's the religious majority who curse for the most part (also have lowered emotional control, although there are plenty of atheists who will do that as well) using religiously inclined words in their insults, are presumptuous, often hypocritical and corrupt (not all granted, but a good portion is).
I'm not making this one up.
You think that religious people are the ones who should be eliminating usage of their theistic deities names and what not in curses (along with curses themselves), plus have a better emotional control than most ?
I agree, but I have yet to see a large number of religious people display such a behavior.

I also know certain words became part of this society culture, but on Trek, it just irks me because first the characters are showed to have moved beyond such things, and the next thing you know, they revert to it because the writers wanted to make the characters more 'real' and closer to current day humans.
They were just fine to begin with.
And if the concept of humanity being beyond numerous things that we know today was one of the main subjects in the show, then they could have stick with it IMHO.

Ok ... I may have over glorified position of religion in Trek a little, but over the years I got the impression the writers just wanted to introduce more and more of it to make the show 'closer to reality'.
Ds9 comes to mind.

And no ... an atheist would NOT acknowledge the existence of Christian god (or any other) because a definition of atheism is the absence of belief in deities.

As for Christians liking Trek ...
Well, there's nothing strange about it.
Plenty of people like Trek after all.
It's fiction after all.

 

[Thomas E. Johnson]

To be honest, I find that there are many prevalent concepts from many of the world's Religions scattered through out Trek. Those concepts have to with being kind to others and treating them as you would want to be treated, helping a neighbor in trouble, and not taking it upon one's self to make judgments about others (after all, that is God(s) job, for those that believe in him, not ours) or treat them any differently than we want to be treated. These beliefs I believe are what the founders of the major Religions (be they Divine, or man made to bring order to a disordered society) intended.

I myself find that Trek always embraced the notion that there is more to the universe than what we can empirically see and measure, and that our soul (or self awareness) continues on after our physical body shuts down in some manor, and that we continue on into other planes of existence so to speak. Kind of like what happened to Picard in "Tapestry" when he had his Near Death Experience and was greeted by Q, who then assumed the role of God (according to many one god belief systems) who the proceeds to give him a second chance/moral lesson/test, to redeem himself of his suddenly selfish desire to continue to live, and accept that if it is his fate to die on the table, then he must accept that, along with all his past regrets, even if they made him a better person.

The bottom line is that throughout Trek, I find that the idea of our identity's continuing on a journey even after our bodies shut down, to at least be an acknowledgement that even if organized religions are all nonsense, that there is still a ethereal or spiritual side to our existence.

I myself am an Agnostic when it comes to God and organized religious orders. However I accept that there is more to the Universe than that which we can currently see and measure, and I accept the personal experience of those that have had NDEs and other so called Paranormal encounters, as evidence that our existence is not meaningless, and that our identities or self awareness continues on. I have no idea how that would categorize me religiously.