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"Choose Your Pain" Klingon ship (Visual spoilers?)

Yes, and this continuity would be a NEW version of the prime universe.

A 'new version of the prime universe' is by definition not the prime universe.

A 'new version' of something is not the same thing, pretty much by nature.

A new version of a universe, is a new universe. Two different things cannot simultaneously be the same thing - that is a logical fallacy. Call it universe one, and universe two, but they cannot both be universe one.

Let's assume you are using imprecise language. Maybe you mean to say 'a new redition of the story', like a different Shakespeare company's rendition of Richard III. First, when performing the play, they are not adapting a 'new version of Shakespeare's play' - the lines are all exactly the same. But second, and more importantly, it still does not make sense, since a new rendition of Star Trek, would be a new universe - actually, each performance of Richard III is basically a reboot, implicitly set in a new universe, if you want to apply geek franchise rules.

Fictional film, television and video game settings are not stage plays, to begin with. The sets don't get changed from week to week on a whim as a new set of performers walk in. Come to think of it, even comic books usually mandate that a different visual interpretation of an existing character is a new universe entirely. So even an industry born in the 1930s and 1940s notorious for it's lack of consistency, and originally written for pre-teen kids, has more coherence than your view of what a visual change means for a universe - the Animated Series Batman is not meant to be the same Batman as Adam West's - even Marvel mostly makes each visual adaptation a new quantum reality, like Earth-616, Earth-199999, even when their continuity does not implicitly conflict.

Star Trek has a very long history of what is considered continuity, and I frankly don't want to see it ape some in-vogue post-modern nonsense, just because it's fashionable to be 'meta' with fiction. Your attempt to retool Star Trek's definition of a universe notwithstanding, Star Trek has had very clear and simple policy - it's definition of universe is the scientific one, not an entertainment industry one; a new universe literally cannot occupy the same space - it is mutually exclusive - if history it altered, and the alteration wasn't pre-destination, it's a new timeline.

We accept re-casting of characters, etc, because we know that in real life, you can't always get the same actors back, but other than minor facets of the medium like that, Star Trek has maintained itself as a consistent setting for 50 years - the Klingon battle-cruiser in 1979's Motion Picture is almost identical in shape to the TOS one from 1968, so fans can easily see it's extra detailing as a refit or something - Mr Scott even has a line about how the Enterprise has been rebuilt.

Your idea of what the 'new prime timeline' is, amounts to sophistry. Say that one day a new Star Trek show was made, and it was a reboot. They shouldn't employ Orwellian doublespeak to basically try to have it both ways (it both is a reboot and isn't). They shouldn't try to capitalize on the notion of a prequel, whilst ignoring any responsibility that a prequel brings. You can be very creative, whilst also being smart enough that the changes don't conflict. But if you are not willing to do that, or have a creative vision you want to fulfill separate from it, just be honest, and announce a reboot.

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Let's discuss what Star Trek has done until now: In Star Trek, there are terms like 'timeline', 'universe' and 'dimension'. Sometimes they are confused by viewers, who may be used to other franchises applying these real world physics terms incorrectly. Star Trek is however usually quite consistent, let's look at them: 1). A dimension is a higher or lower dimension in 'string theory' and 'M theory' interpretations of spacetime; it has no relation to timelines or universes, and can be ignored. 2). A timeline/universe/reality (all interchangeable terms) is a branch of how history/causality unfolded, which creates a new universe, as Star Trek follows the 'many worlds' interpretation of quantum physics, where for each possible outcome of an event there is a different quantum reality. Thus, in Star Trek, the Mirror Universe, Kelvin Timeline, and reality seen in Yesterday's Enterprise, are all examples of parallel universes within the many worlds interpretation of cosmology. They are not reboots, as they are all equally legitimate twins of the prime universe, and exist contemporary to it. Star Trek has never had a reboot - but a timeline may practically function as one for the purpose of real-life writing, as the Kelvin timeline does. It's not a reboot - i.e. Battlestar Galactica 2004 was a reboot of Battlestar Galactica 1978. This is the most commonly accepted definition of reboot; a brand new version of a setting, before studios started using 'reboot' to mean just 'revive'. Star Wars has also never had a reboot, nor have Babylon 5, Farscape, Firefly, Mass Effect, Warhammer 40000, Halo, or any number of science fiction franchises. To reboot JRR Tolkien's legendarium, would be tantamount to cultural vandalism; the carefully crafted setting's intricate continuity is a masterpiece and essential to it's value. It is something relatively novel outside of comic book films and the like, because they never had any standard of continuity to begin with.

1968, the Klingon battlecruiser:
C5EdysS.jpg


1979, the higher detailed Klingon battlecruiser:
CZR4XRl.jpg


1987-2001, the Klingon battlecruiser is used in TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT:
67c0LN0.jpg


2009, the Kelvin timeline's battlecruiser:
BvcU3Xq.jpg


We fully understand your view. You want to start treating each in-universe 'timeline' (Prime, Mirror, Kelvin, etc) as something that can be ignored by a new company of graphics designers whenever it suits people - you want it to somehow officially remain the 'same universe'. To some extent this happens in some other visual media and franchises. In Marvel's Earth-616 reality, new artists re-interpret things - nobody has aged since the 1960s, and people who were alive during The Bay of Pigs Invasion are somehow still 30 years old when 9/11 happens - no explanation is given. I would argue Earth-616 makes no sense, for this reason, is actually clearly a series of realities, and falls apart logically as a single setting. This is a completely different culture, more similar to a Homeric poet retelling the Trojan War differently to different villages, than to a beloved and consistent space opera franchise like Star Trek. Please stop trying to foist comics book culture onto a space opera with a grand history of it's own. People have enjoyed reading and writing Encyclopedias and Concordances for 50 years, and I object to Star Trek lowering its standards, to the point it would damage the value of the property. Just make it a full reboot, or else don't reboot it.

One day, I think Star Trek might get a full reboot. Right now it essentially has two settings, which supposedly have a shared history up until 2233 A.D. Until Discovery is clarified otherwise, it is a part of prime's universe's history and causality, and that comes with responsibilities. Klingon battlecruisers must be built from the same blueprints, designed by the same person, in the same way, as they were any previous time we saw them, and thus must look reasonably like a refit or newer model of the same vessel.

Reboots do not create alternate timelines, that's just not how that works. Reboots go back to a point in the existing timeline and retell the entire story from that point, erasing everything that came after and most of what came before.

Well, if you say "that's just not how it works", I guess I'll just stop using my own mind to reach my own conclusions.

You know, the main reason why this debate is still going on is simply that people in entertainment circles have muddied the waters with imprecise sophist language - where 'reboot' once had one definition, which meant 'making an all-new version of a given piece of entertainment, bearing only basic relationship', Hollywood executives have introduced weasel words - I can barely write this post without using these false terms for things, because they have become so prevalent.
 
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Oh, but they DO. The only meaningful difference between Batman and Star Trek in this regard is that Star Trek has never had a proper reboot. This is a difference they will continue to have until, one day, they suddenly don't.

Anything else you might have added to this conversation is invalid after this point.

The only meaningful difference between Star Trek and Monty Python and the Holy Grail is that Star Trek has never featured a British comedy troupe. Given the fact that Star Trek could do this in the future, I therefore conclude that they already have. FROM THE PRODUCERS' PERSPECTIVE, Lorca's "tribble" (fan term) is actually a rabbit with Big Pointy Teeth, because Paramount has owned Prime Tribbles since Into Darkness. Anything else you might have added to this conversation is invalid after this point.

You see, I can extrapolate nonsense from superficial similarities and made-up definitions too.

First of all, my main point was that the D7 isn't going to be replaced in the public consciousness any time soon. This will not become "the D7", it will become "L'Rell's D7" or something. For the purpose of predicting this, it makes far more sense to compare it to the various Enterprises than to batmobiles.

Maybe someday the story, design language, and concept of "what is Star Trek" will change. No one is saying this can never happen. The problem is you're telling us it already is happening, in contradiction to all real available information. You ignore what DSC actually is, in the present reality, and replace it with your imaginings of what could have been, based on imaginary equivalence to a franchise with a completely different style and history. There's usually nothing wrong with imagination, but you're putting in a lot of wasted effort in trying to get others to share your fantasy.
 
Because in my experience, a few readers follow threads page-by-page, but the majority of readers jump in at the last page without context, I just wanted to make the point again about the consistency of the design for anyone new to the discussion. Sorry, I'll stop anyway, but bear in mind, a digital post literally wastes nothing in terms of space or data, so no harm done.

P.S. the only reason I use images in my posts in general is because they serve to break up text and give people something to look at, saves a lot of TL;DR type rude responses, and gives people some nice presentation to focus on - enhances a point ideally.
 
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A 'new version of the prime universe' is by definition not the prime universe.
Definition of WHAT? There's nothing in the "definition" of "prime universe" that implies it cannot be rebooted or even massively retconned. Especially so if they decide to change only the details of the fictional history while leaving the broad strokes mostly intact.

A new version of a universe, is a new universe...
A "universe" or a "timeline" is not the same thing as a story continuity. You can reset a fictional universe using story elements of the setting itself (e.g. Yesterday's Enterprise, TMP, Year of Hell, etc).

An ACTUAL REBOOT has no contextual reset mechanism. The "universe" that exists is, for the purposes of the story, the only way it has ever been. This is why Star Trek 2009 is not considered to be a true reboot, BECAUSE it created a parallel universe. When you reset continuity WITHOUT creating an alternate universe, the original continuity ceases to be valid.

Let's assume you are using imprecise language...
I am using very precise language in recognition of the fact that a fictional universe and a story continuity are not the same thing. Remakes, reboots, re-imaginings and mashups do not create parallel universes in related continuities, they create SEPARATE continuities that are all different versions of the same fictional universe. Thus they all have the same basic setting, the same characters, the same premise, and most of the same events.

We fully understand your view. You want to start treating each in-universe 'timeline' (Prime, Mirror, Kelvin, etc) as something that can be ignored by a new company of graphics designers whenever it suits people - you want it to somehow officially remain the 'same universe'.
What I "want" is irrelevant. The producers of Star Trek will do whatever they please with the story progression because they're the ones calling the shots. What I RECOGNIZE is that the normal rules of story continuity and internal consistency are somewhat different for the writers and TV producers than they are for posters on message boards. To be sure, there's nothing in the definition of "prime universe" that precludes the production team from rebooting it and directly changing huge parts of it. If they say "it's the same universe," then what's what it is. We'll struggle to make sense of it like we always do, but we don't actually have any say over how the producers decide to spin this. And at this point, with all the bitching and moaning coming out of this one issue alone, I'd be amazed if they even bothered to ASK us what any of us think.

Well, if you say "that's just not how it works", I guess I'll just stop using my own mind to reach my own conclusions.
Your conclusions are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how YOU think it works. What matters is how THEY think it works. In short, I'M not the one you need to convince here: the person who designed that rebooted battlecruiser design IS.
 
The only meaningful difference between Star Trek and Monty Python and the Holy Grail is that Star Trek has never featured a British comedy troupe
In regards to what?

First of all, my main point was that the D7 isn't going to be replaced in the public consciousness any time soon.
Since "public consciousness" doesn't define story canon, this is irrelevant.
 
Just give it up Eddie. Typing in block capitals and insisting you are right is not going to convince us.

There's nothing in the "definition" of "prime universe" that implies it cannot be rebooted.

Sure.

You seem to have missed @USS Einstein's point. He never said anything about 'prime' precluding a reboot. Of course it can be rebooted. What he did say was that by definition, a different version of something is not the same thing as the original. It would cease being prime upon reboot.

Remakes, reboots .... do not create parallel universes in related continuities, they create SEPARATE continuities.

Yep.

Thus they all have the same basic setting, the same characters, the same premise, and most of the same events.

Can do, yep, unless the reboot is more extensive.

To be sure, there's nothing in the definition of "prime universe" that precludes the production team from rebooting it and directly changing huge parts of it. If they say "it's the same universe," then what's what it is.

Emphatically no.

Reboot it, and no fan will just ignore the change, even if a studio executive unwisely insisted by writ from on high that all official material called it the same thing, it will be called something like NewPrime and OldPrime by everyone else, as @Longinus and others correctly said. Let's hope nobody would be that stupid, to start using a less rigorous comic-book-movie inspired management of setting, on a franchise that has maintained a higher standard until now. I doubt anyone would, but well, ya know Hollywood, it's full of spivs, and their track record of respecting the differences and quirks of a franchise is varied.

There's nothing in the "definition" of "prime universe" that implies it cannot be rebooted

True ...at which point it is no longer the same universe, no matter what any producer insists.
 
In regards to what?

Since "public consciousness" doesn't define story canon, this is irrelevant.
lol... It was relevant, until you got lost in your ramblings and now no one knows what you're talking about, including you.

Quick refresher:

King Daniel:
Google "Batmobile" and see what comes up. People get that designs are changed in TV and movies all the time.

You:
Trek fans apparently don't. There are many different scifi/fantasy IPs that revise the look of their title character/vehicles twice or thrice in a generation with multiple continuities running side by side that otherwise aren't even slightly related. It's a new and scary thing for Star Trek, but it's nothing unusual for science fiction in general.

Me:
Are we seriously suggesting that 10 years from now, the "Choose Your Pain" D7 will replace the classic D7 in the public consciousness and overtake it in google image results, because it has happened with the batmobile?
...
It has been 8 years since Star Trek '09, 16 years since Enterprise, 21 years since First Contact, and 30 years since TNG. Yet, when I google starship enterprise, I have to look hard to find any of these in the results. The overwhelming majority is still the 1701 classic and refit. No bloody D, E, NX, or JJ.


In case you didn't know, google's algorithm isn't a Trek fan. It's simply a fact that Batman and Star Trek are seen very differently in general. Not because of "scared" Trek fans, but because of the actual nature of the beast.

BTW, no matter how many times you type THEY THE PRODUCERS in all caps, it doesn't make the words you put in their mouths any truer. DSC isn't Batman Begins, nor is it intended to be.
 
I actually read this whole thread. I think because I was so instantly excited to see a 2017 high budget D7 and was so quickly disappointed I needed to see If i was alone in my thoughts. I'm just going to throw my quick thoughts on all of this. The D7 and in fact all of the Klingon redesigns make no sense to me. It really is absurd to me. I can't even fathom the decision making process behind this.

You don't change iconic entrenched lore or cannon for the sake of it. Universe\World building is about establishing rules, themes, and aesthetics that viewers or even readers can use to immerse themselves in a story. If you understand the world you are immersed in, you no longer have to receive exposition in the heat of the moment. Because the viewer\reader knows the rules. Change these rules, and i'm willing to go out on a limb and say that 'most' people would find it jarring and frustrating. I think this is most important when doing a prequel, when a big part of the entertainment is returning to the past and seeing something that is both familiar and new.

For those in here that have supported the change rather passionately, I really can't relate to what you see in that kind of modification. For me, it would be like if you dropped a guy with a rifle into a Song of Ice and Fire, i wouldn't know what to think. It would break the rules established by the story.

Just my thoughts.

Boo to the new D7 and the new redesign of the klingons.
 
I am enjoying watching the nitpick TOS diehards cry and squirm that their beloved cardboard props are being replaced with high quality designs.

Call the waaahhhhmbulance. I'll sit back and enjoy the show.
For the next Star Wars movie replace (sorry "reimagine") all the X-Wings with a stumpy pyramid at front flaring out to four fixed wings with a row of imbeded laser cannons. And still call it an X-Wing. joe-public probably wont care or know, but the fans.......?
It must be so good to be a superior enlightened fan who doesnt care if tptb change the design, technological, moral, social and thematic underpinnings of a show, just as long as they can view it now.
I see it as a greedy, lazy and cynical ploy, using a brand name and identity to attract fans to it while having (and very liberally using) carte blanche to totally change everything else.
How much do you remove and "reimagine" (god, I hate that word) from a property before it no longer is itself?
Or if you dont want to remain true to a property then just produce "Discovery" - no "Star Trek". Have courage and confidence in your show without leaning on the crutches (and mining the fanbase) of ST.
Okay rant over, move on there's nothing more to see...........
 
More specifically, the ship holding Lorca, Tyler and Mudd captive was called a Bird of Prey by Saru when they went after it, and again by Tilly when discussing the rumors surrounding the escape.

Are we to believe this was different from the "D7 battle cruiser" that originally captured him? There's one exterior visual during the imprisonment that's of the same ship that did the capturing. Neither of these ships is either the old D7, any of the old BoPs or the DSC BoP.

It's pretty amazing how Vulcan ships are still loyally Vulcan in design (including onscreen appearances by classic Vulcan designs such as the ST:FC lander), and how Starfleet ships are loyally Starfleet in design - while Klingon ships diverge. I still think this is by deliberate design, and not because the artists involved would be disagreeing with each other or misunderstanding their instructions... But whether this means we'll eventually get a surprise reveal of loyally Klingon designs, no bets.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think someone mentioned the guy who did the Klingon concept art was a different designer.

So maybe John Eaves did everything else - Vulcan, Starfleet, etc - he was the guy who invented the Vulcan ring ships in ENT.

I wasn't a huge fan of some of his designs, but would far prefer his take on Klingon ships.
 
I think someone mentioned the guy who did the Klingon concept art was a different designer.

So maybe John Eaves did everything else - Vulcan, Starfleet, etc - he was the guy who invented the Vulcan ring ships in ENT.

I wasn't a huge fan of some of his designs, but would far prefer his take on Klingon ships.

The new klingon make-up is done by Neville page, who previously did the make-up for Prometheus, Chronicles of Narnia and the Kelvin Star Trek movies - and won an oscar for his work on Star Trek 09, and who already designed the rebooted klingon make-up for Into-Darkness. Saru is also of his making. I think he does decent work. I find his work not as iconic as that of Michael Westmoore (who gave us the Cardassians, Borg, Ferengi, various Xindi-types [the reptiles and arboreals being my favourites!] and rebooted Andorians and Tellarites from ENT). But his make-up usually looks realistic enough and is rich in detail for close-ups.

The "new" klingon starships (ugh.) were designed by Mark Worthington. Who previously was the production designer for "Ugly Betty" and "American Horror Story". And that's exactly how IMO the re-designed klingon starships look: An ugly horror story.

I think it's safe to assume that John Eaves has taken over the duties of desinging new starships - the Vulcan one last episode looked a lot like a John Eaves design. He designed all the klingon starships that appeared in ENT, so he knows what he's doing. My guess is, the next time a NEW CGI-model of a klingon starship will appear, it's probably going to be a John Eaves-design, and look a lot closer to the traditional aesthetics we're used to. IMO they are already going into this direction: The corridor and the torture cell from the last episodes - as well as the klingon "warrior" costumes - looked a lot more like the classic brutalistic design than the Gothic Church-like interiour of the "Sarcophagus" ship from the pilot.
 
The new klingon make-up is done by Neville page, who previously did the make-up for Prometheus, Chronicles of Narnia and the Kelvin Star Trek movies - and won an oscar for his work on Star Trek 09, and who already designed the rebooted klingon make-up for Into-Darkness.

Jeez, I would have liked to have seen his Into Darkness designs in the series!

We never got a good look in the film.
 
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Jeez, I would have liked to have seen his Into Darkness designs in the series!

We never got a good look in the film.

We got a pretty good close-up of the one talking. If you look at the behind-the-scenes material, it looks like the other Into-Darkness klingons use the same make-up mold (aka, the ridges are identical). Which would make sense, since they wear helmest and aren't visible anyway. But the other klingons have additional hair and beards (which make them look very klingon). The one with the speaking role is as bald and hairless as the DIS-ones (no bear, not even eyebrows). The real-world reason is that everytime he took down his helmet, the hair-prosthetics were ripped with it. Thus giving us our very first mullrat klingon (before that, every klingon had at least eyebrows).
 
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