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"Choose Your Pain" Klingon ship (Visual spoilers?)

Google "Batmobile" and see what comes up. People get that designs are changed in TV and movies all the time.

Star Trek isn't Batman.

This isn't a 40s comic which already had poor standards of internal coherence to start with, written for 10 year olds, being adapted multiple times by a studio system that just treats films as a stand-alone experience, in an age before the age of Star Wars: Rogue One, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and Blade Runner 2049. Context is for kings.

I'll re-post something I said in another topic:

The thing is, if you know there is a Klingon ship type known as the D-7, then you know enough to find out what it looks like. Hell, just type Klingon D7 into Google and it pops up. To go and actively choose another ship design when the script clearly says "D-7" is to actively disregard canon.

"Prime Timeline" and "reboot" are a contradiction in terms.

People have been throwing all kinds of Orwellian redefinition around like 'soft reboot' and 'visual reboot', but basically if you consciously change something big, into something that it cannot mutually occupy - that's not a "prime timeline" anymore folks, that's a new timeline.

MaJQQci.jpg


Now if you want to go back 90% of the way through Trek's aired material to the last time something as disruptive happened, i.e. the celebrated Motion Picture redesign of the Klingons - which is being used to justify everything these days - first, the change was done at a time when Star Trek was only three seasons long - not twenty eight seasons long - second, it changed something dramatically, not just replacing it with a 'meh' design - and third, the whole thing was not actually as hard justify in people's heads - we had authors positing multiple races of Klingon - people speculating on genetic engineering already - compare to this:.

GANE6yF.jpg


The correct equivalence, rather than a malleable organic species, would be if the Motion Picture NCC-1701 had been a sphere or cube or something that cannot occupy the same identity, under any circumstances (jokes about the thickness of the saucer aside, it maintains enough of the basic shape that 99% of audiences wouldn't even think - and they still threw a line in about it being a refit for fans).

1968, the Klingon battlecruiser:
C5EdysS.jpg


1979, the higher detailed Klingon battlecruiser:
CZR4XRl.jpg


1987-2001, the Klingon battlecruiser is used in TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT:
Lj3DZvS.jpg


67c0LN0.jpg


2001, the unused D4 was designed by John Eaves:
Nlw7cfy.jpg


2009, the Kelvin timeline's battlecruiser:
BvcU3Xq.jpg


2017, it basically looks like a Dominion ship:
FB4dT7x.jpg


As The Wormhole said - to actively (i.e. proactively) choose another ship design - is to actively (with volition) disregard canon. The show can still be fully canonical, if it turns out D7 is a misunderstood term, or the Klingon designs of the past show up in future. So it's not yet set in stone. But the current 'visual reboot' would basically mean 'reboot'.

By comparison to the D7, a few holographic emitters aren't so big a deal. They can be a feature that was replaced for an obscure reason, or was just rarely seen, i.e. in Azetbur's chamber in Star Trek VI.

This is why, rather than court another controversy, the producers should just put out a definitive statement on their intentions. The only reason I can think, why terms with multiple interpretations are being used, like 'prime timeline', is that they want to sit on the fence and not alienate people hoping for canonical drama. I think honesty would build a less toxic relationship with fans. Say you are rebooting Trek if it is your intention. The act of causing controversy leads to a lot of bad faith with fans, who should ideally be your advocates, not people you lead on for season upon season. What is this, like Star Trek's third massive dispute with producers in three attempts? If it's not a reboot, throw in a battlecruiser and some facial hair, if it is, say so, and we can accept the new work for what it is.
 
I was looking it up, and the term D7 was only spoken once on screen before DSC, and that was in DS9: Trials and Tribulations

The designation was never said in TOS. It comes from BTS information

Just thought that was an interesting fact.
 
I was aware of that; it's one of the reasons why the show can still reconcile with canon, if it wants.

To fully explain the history of the term, as I remember it, the D7 was a name invented by William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy for the Klingon battlecruiser as a practical joke on Gene Roddenberry, played during the filming of an episode. They basically pretended it was the official name of the ship, and everyone except Gene knew it, or something like that. I do not know what episode they were actually filming at the time, but say, for the sake of theory, that it was a season two episode, before the Klingon battlecruiser model was built (subsequently added to seasons one and two in TOS Remastered, but originally only built in season three), that would mean the original screen canon might depict a different ship. The term D7 then came to be the more-or-less official class name of the battlecruiser in reference material.

So, one avenue the producers could go down is showing a battlecruiser on screen and calling it a K't'inga or something, or just ignoring their earlier reference as a shuttle computer mis-speaking, or just expand the definition of D7 to mean a broader category of ship.
 
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So, one avenue the producers could go down is showing a battlecruiser on screen and calling it a K't'inga or something, or just ignoring their earlier reference as a shuttle computer mis-speaking, or just expand the definition of D7 to mean a broader category of ship.
Yeah, the problem is not that this specific example cannot be reconciled. The problem is that this probably was not a mistake, and it speaks of the producer intent to totally reboot the look of everything, and if that's the case coming up with this sort of explanations is not gonna cut it. This will be just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Yeah, the problem is not that this specific example cannot be reconciled. The problem is that this probably was not a mistake, and it speaks of the producer intent to totally reboot the look of everything, and if that's the case coming up with this sort of explanations is not gonna cut it. This will be just the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly, I doubt the producers were thinking of this obscure fact about the D7's naming origins when dropping that reference, more likely it was intentionally meant to be a reboot of the ship that pretty much everyone has called a D7 for 50 years.

I would very much like them to retract that particular change, or at least show it's a different ship. There aren't many times in Trek's long history where I would change a scene if I could edit it out of all future airings and disc media, just the cloaking device in ENT: Minefield, and the k't'inga in ENT: Unexpected really - but this can still be explained away.
 
I was looking it up, and the term D7 was only spoken once on screen before DSC, and that was in DS9: Trials and Tribulations

The designation was never said in TOS. It comes from BTS information

Just thought that was an interesting fact.
Twice, it was used in Voyager's "Prophecy" (where Paris says "they were retired decades ago", despite concurrent series Deep Space Nine spamming them everywhere)
 
We have another way around this, the Computer identified the ship via its Warp Signature.

It could be a type of warp drive as someone suggested, or a weight class of ship, or something else.

Being a Trekkie since I was about 4 or 5 years old, growing up on 90s re-runs of TOS on British TV, and reading the Star Trek: Encyclopedia, and Star Trek: Chronology a lot as a kid, there are some interesting things I've noted about the naming of Klingon ships over the years - some of the more controversial ones were kind of positive:

bukZeLx.jpg


Until the 1990s, there was a pretty limited and well agreed upon list of Klingon classes:
  • - D7-class battlecruiser
  • - K't'inga-class battlecruiser (often speculated to be a refit D7)
  • - B'rel/k'vort/D12-class bird-of-prey
  • - Vor'cha class attack cruiser
  • - Negh'var class dreadnaught
webM9RM.jpg


The show that introduced a lot of new classes was Enterprise. Rather than anything really primative looking, many of the new classes introduced looked like slightly different early variants of newer Klingon ships:
  • - Pilot references "klingon warbirds" (warbird a term previously exclusive to Romulans)
  • - [The never seen D4-class battlecruiser was replaced with a D7/k't'inga]
  • - Raptor-class scout ship
  • - D5-class battlecruiser
  • - Early 22nd century bird-of-prey
  • - The scout ship captured by the Augments
bAE5KiI.jpg


The the Kelvin timeline movies did some interesting things, by introducing two more classes of Klingon warship, the first of which appears in Star Trek in 2009, and the second of which appears in Star Trek Into Darkness in 2013:
  • - "Klingon warbird" (appears to be a D7/k't'inga battlecruiser with new details)
  • - D4-class bird--of-prey
What I would surmise from all this evidence, is that the term "warbird", basically is synonymous with battleship or battlecruiser for both the Klingon Empire and Romulan Star Empire. Bird-of-prey is a term for smaller destroyers/scouts, which can be as small as a runabout (i.e. Into Darkness). The D4, D5, D7, D12 designations may be Vulcan/Federation names for Klingon classes (like M-class planet, or like American names for Cold War Russian MIGs), or may operate on some other criteria, as the D4 class bird-of-prey appears 100 years after the D5-class battlecruiser.

EDIT: oh and yes, VOY: Prophesy confirmed in my mind that D7 and k'tinga are the same ship, perhaps with differing spheres of overlap - i.e. the D7 could even by one type of k'tinga.
 
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Twice, it was used in Voyager's "Prophecy" (where Paris says "they were retired decades ago", despite concurrent series Deep Space Nine spamming them everywhere)
Not necessarily a continuity error. Before the war in DS9 D7/K't'inga was not used in 24th century shows, except to represent outdated ships. It is reasonable to assume that the Klingon Empire had loads of mothballed old ships though, and during the war they'd put them back in the service.

(I really don't want a reboot, I love discussions like this. :()
 
Who is the dude in the middle?

A genetically engineered soldier from another of Gene Roddenberry's TV shows, unrelated to Star Trek, which served as some of the inspiration for the Motion Picture Klingons makeup - they were called the Kreeg - whoever made the graphic included them just to show the progression of the makeup.
 
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A genetically engineered soldier from another of Gene Roddenberry's TV shows, unrelated to Star Trek, which served as some of the inspiration for the Motion Picture Klingons makeup - they were called the Kreeg - whoever made the graphic included them just to show the progression of the makeup.

Ah cool. I thought it may have been from a fan production or something.
 
Just a continuity error. One of the people working on the show assumed they'd use the Actual D-7 model they already had.
I'm perfectly willing to accept D7 and K't'inga to be the same. They're pretty much identical apart the latter having more hull detail. Had they used TMP K'ti'ga model in TOS (assuming here they'd burned big bucks to make such detailed model available earlier) I don't think it would have really looked any different at the TV sets of the time. Such level of detail just would not have been visible. Then again, if people want to interpret this to be an actual in-universe difference and there be two distinct classes or variants, that's fine too. But if one were to create a faithful recreation of TOS D7 that had hull detail that is expected in modern TV production, you'd end up pretty much with K't'inga.
 
Although I know some people like Longinus prefer to ignore the appearance of the D7/k't'inga in "ENT: Unexpected" as Ex Astris Scientia does, as it stretches the class out across 200 years (I was unhappy at the time, let me tell ya), there is a way of gradating the class, so that it is more like a series of sub-classes - since I accept on-screen as the definitive canon, I've taken to justifying it like this:

D7 - design variant 1 (aquamarine nacelles, dark hull) - 22nd century [ENT, VOY]:
Do5fGRV.jpg


D7 - design variant 2 (solid nacelles, light hull) - 22nd?/23rd century [TOS]:
6b0AXOo.jpg


D7 - design variant 3 (solid nacelles, dark hull) - 23rd/24th century [TMP, TNG]:
sKa6yI6.jpg


D7 - design variant 4 (cyan nacelles, light hull) - 23rd/24th century [TUC, TNG, DS9]:
VXuSSR7.jpg


So it might be pushing the believable lifespan of a class of military warship, but the B-52 bomber is expected to serve for about 100 years, so it's not entirely unprecedented - maybe it's a solid space-frame, and they just put new sensor packages and weapons on each sub-model every 25 years.

It does serve to remind us that the D7 in Star Trek: Discovery is a real anomaly - assuming we trust that the term D7 means what we think it does, and if we trust the shuttle's computer - because the class has already existed for about 100 years prior to DSC, and will exist for a hundred more after - and will look the same throughout.
 
It's a cool looking Klingon ship. But we need a better look at it and I think this could be a new type of D7 class ship or Starfleet made a mistake.
 
Most would not care. Most also know it does not look old, so would care less what it used to look like. The show is the current show and this is what they have been told a D7 looks like. Most would not care what older shows had it looking like. Its not really relevant.

TREKKIES would care.
You know? The primary fanbase for this show.

So far, you are literally the only one in this ENTIRE thread who isn't at least slightly annoyed at this change. Sorry mate, you're really the minority opinion here. Everyone else varies between "annoyed" to "hate it". Which IMO is a good sample of the fanbase of this show.
 
I was looking it up, and the term D7 was only spoken once on screen before DSC, and that was in DS9: Trials and Tribulations

The designation was never said in TOS. It comes from BTS information

Just thought that was an interesting fact.
Don't forget, the term D7 was also spoken in VOY "Prophecy."

KIM: They've re-cloaked again. Tetryon readings indicate it's a D-Seven Class cruiser.
PARIS: D-Seven? They were retired decades ago
(source: chakoteya.net)

Kor
 
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