Children on "Botany Bay" and TWOK

[Franklin]

I'm sure explanations for the relatively young ages of Khan's crew in TWOK have been discussed to death on this site. My question is:
If (big if) there were children or teenagers among the 72 or so in stasis on the "Botany Bay" (like a then 15 year-old Joachim and the others who eventually grew up to be Khan's crew in TWOK), why would Kirk have sent the juveniles into exile? What were they guilty of? Something about doing that to the children seems unsettling to me.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Maybe he gave them a choice like he did for McGivers.

 

[Jack Bauer]

While non canon the novel "To Reign in Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh" by Greg Cox had Khan and his followers have children shortly after being on Ceti Alpha V that grew up fast due to their advanced genetics.

 

[Timo]

It seems far likelier to me that the kids were born down on the planet. Indeed, while the 80 original supermen were of pronouncedly mixed ethnic origin, the kids are so uniform that I'm tempted to think that they are all offspring of the Alpha Male and his wife and concubines.

It has been fifteen years, give or take a couple, since the supermen were stranded. By no means too little to raise somebody like Joachim, especially if he carriers supergenes for rapid maturing...

Dramatically, having Joachim as Khan's eldest son works very well IMHO.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Franklin]

Well and good that kids from genetically engineered parents circa the 1990s age faster. Frankly, I find it simply convenient more than believable, but eh. I mean, they what, stop aging quickly around 15? 20? 35? Montalban was around 46 in "Space Seed", so Khan was only 23? It's a "dog's years" thing?
Of course, I think we all know the practical reason for it all is Montalban was 63 at TWOK, so if everyone on Khan's crew was an original "Botany Bay" survivor, that would've been an interesting looking bunch to say the least.

That said, Khan is flying around in the "Reliant" with a ship full of mostly 15 or so year olds. Kirk has a right to defend himself and the "Enterprise", but he's fighting a crew who are essentially "jacked-up" children led by their elder. Aren't there moral implications here? Are they kids or adults? Is Joachim a genetically superior teenager or a 30-something? Shouldn't that question have mattered in how the situation was dealt with?

 

[LavianoTS386]

 

[Good Will Riker]

Franklin said:That said, Khan is flying around in the "Reliant" with a ship full of mostly 15 or so year olds. Kirk has a right to defend himself and the "Enterprise", but he's fighting a crew who are essentially "jacked-up" children led by their elder. Aren't there moral implications here? Are they kids or adults? Is Joachim a genetically superior teenager or a 30-something? Shouldn't that question have mattered in how the situation was dealt with?

In times of "war," even babies get killed in the battlefield.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Timo said:
It seems far likelier to me that the kids were born down on the planet. Indeed, while the 80 original supermen were of pronouncedly mixed ethnic origin

This is also covered in Greg Cox's book. The exiles are from a wide range of ethnic origins (the TV script actually names the Asian Ling, the swarthy Joaquin - not Joachim - the Scottish McPherson..., etc) but, as an unexpected result of the Eugenic tinkered genetics that produced the parents on Earth, all their kids conceived on Ceti Alpha V turn out to be of blonde Aryan stock. And age to maturity very quickly. Joachim is Joaquin's son.

 

[Timo]

Sigh... I guess Cox also offers a related explanation to the changing face of Saavik in a footnote?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

Timo said:
Sigh...

Why sigh? He attempted to answer a question that many, many people were asking to be answered.

I guess Cox also offers a related explanation to the changing face of Saavik in a footnote?

No, but I once did, in a little cartoon for a ST newsletter.

Kirk: "Saavik, you've changed your face?"
Permed hair Saavik: "It's still regulation, Admiral".

And the first run of DC Comics used a two-part Saavik pon farr storyline to slowly but permanently change the angle of Saavik's eyebrows to resemble the Robin Curtis version - even though she went back to looking like Kirstie Alley in issues published after the ST III comic adaptation.

 

[Rainman]

Franklin said:
Well and good that kids from genetically engineered parents circa the 1990s age faster. Frankly, I find it simply convenient more than believable, but eh. I mean, they what, stop aging quickly around 15? 20? 35? Montalban was around 46 in "Space Seed", so Khan was only 23? It's a "dog's years" thing?
Of course, I think we all know the practical reason for it all is Montalban was 63 at TWOK, so if everyone on Khan's crew was an original "Botany Bay" survivor, that would've been an interesting looking bunch to say the least.

You're thinking too conventionally.

Don't think of it as accelerated aging, think of it as accelerated maturation.

While humans are children, our growth, and aging certainly occur at a much more rapid rate then at any other time in our lives. In a mere 15 years, a human child goes from being a 15 inch long, 8 pound, helpless creature, to being nearly full grown, with a sense of ethics, and basic skills. At no other point in a humans development will they advance so quickly. In nature, this development "shuts off" when full growth is achieved, and never are our minds such active sponges as when we're in our youth.

Since these are certainly facts, I see no difficulty in accepting the premise that "advanced" genetic manipulation could result in even quicker maturation, along with an extended period of being in peak physical shape.

Basically; Much quicker aging then normal in the beginning, and much slower aging then normal after maturing.

That said, Khan is flying around in the "Reliant" with a ship full of mostly 15 or so year olds. Kirk has a right to defend himself and the "Enterprise", but he's fighting a crew who are essentially "jacked-up" children led by their elder. Aren't there moral implications here? Are they kids or adults? Is Joachim a genetically superior teenager or a 30-something? Shouldn't that question have mattered in how the situation was dealt with?

These moral implications are predicated on an assumption that these "15 year olds" don't possess the intellect, and ethics necessary to understand their actions. When dealing with beings not of natural human development, its illogical to impose natural human limitations.

They were 15 standard Earth years of age, yet they clearly had the intelligence, and maturity far beyond their years.

 

[Timo]

...Moreover, even Judson Scott hardly looks too old to be a "Hollywood teenager". No abnormally rapid aging is required to explain Khan's crew IMHO.

Nor does it seem necessary for Kirk to specifically consider the age of his opponents. We see few children in the 23rd century, but those of the 24th are not kept in a cotton-cushioned jar or anything. Rather, they learn calculus as preteens, are left alone for extended periods of time at an early age, and pursue very independent lives in general. Kirk might by no means be uncomfortable with the idea of 15-year-old warriors as his equals.

...Heck, at 15, the average male would be a man with full rights and regalia in almost all Terran cultures, except for those that briefly flared up in the West in the 19th-20th-21st centuries. A "progressive" 22nd-24th century Trek universe might well return to those days, only logically extend the same courtesy to females.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Franklin]

Khan kept them alive for fifteen years, so they're very loyal, but they had to see how psychotic he had become. Wouldn't someone have planned a mutiny? That would've been the mature, self-involved, self-preserving act of a group of adults. Joachim shows a very little bit of independence, but ulitmately backs down.
Like children, they dutifully followed the parent figure on an essentially suicidal mission. They did not seem very mature.

Also, if these are "Botany Bay" progeny, then Kirk is treating them as guilty of the sins of their fathers. He shows surprisingly little compassion for Khan's crew of essentially innocent, manipulted, maybe even brainwashed young people. They may be willingly by Khan's side, but no one has told them they don't have to be. No one has told them to think of their own best interests.

For what it's worth, does anyone know if Nicholas Meyers ever spoke to the age issue between Khan's crew and ages of "Botany Bay" crew at the time of "Space Seed"?

 

[Nebusj]

They're supposed to be genetically-tweaked super geniuses; they ought to be able to figure it out on their own!

But seriously, so far as I'm aware -- and I can't give a citation for this -- Meyers's intent was to have Kirk and Khan have their respective ships of children. The fact that, really, there ought to have been some underlings of Khan who were as old as him -- or older -- was let drop for the aesthetics of the mirror-symmetry of it.

If you really want to have the old gang around, suppose that they were mostly below decks, working phaser control and engineering and such, while Khan let the kids play with the helm and navigation and whatnot. You know how kids are with shiny new computers.

 

[Franklin]

Nebusj said:
They're supposed to be genetically-tweaked super geniuses; they ought to be able to figure it out on their own!

But seriously, so far as I'm aware -- and I can't give a citation for this -- Meyers's intent was to have Kirk and Khan have their respective ships of children. The fact that, really, there ought to have been some underlings of Khan who were as old as him -- or older -- was let drop for the aesthetics of the mirror-symmetry of it.

If you really want to have the old gang around, suppose that they were mostly below decks, working phaser control and engineering and such, while Khan let the kids play with the helm and navigation and whatnot. You know how kids are with shiny new computers.

Not to be argumentative, but to press one more point: A superior and fast-developing body and intellect does not necessarily translate into maturity. Maturity also requires a highly developed outlook. That can only really come with age and experience. Khan's progeny had neither.

Let's just say Khan's crew were more or less "tried as adults," and leave it at that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Nebusj said:
Meyers's intent was to have Kirk and Khan have their respective ships of children. The fact that, really, there ought to have been some underlings of Khan who were as old as him -- or older -- was let drop for the aesthetics of the mirror-symmetry of it.

We were watching the film yesterday. There is at least one rather craggy blond guy who's much older than Joaquim.

The novelization builds upon Nick Meyer's view of Kirk's Enterprise with descriptions of the young midshipmen in Engineering. Peter Preston and his trainee colleagues are only about 15, similar in age to the midshipmen in the old Horatio Hornblower novels.

 

[Unicron]

Franklin said:
Khan kept them alive for fifteen years, so they're very loyal, but they had to see how psychotic he had become. Wouldn't someone have planned a mutiny? That would've been the mature, self-involved, self-preserving act of a group of adults. Joachim shows a very little bit of independence, but ulitmately backs down.

I haven't had time to read the novelization in full, but Joachim's arguments with Khan are far more frequent and intense than in the film version. He still admires Khan as a noble warrior, but he also believes that Khan has let himself become twisted by the exile and the loss of McGivers. His obsession with Kirk has overshadowed Khan's true genius.

I have to wonder too - suppose the superman actually aged slower rather than faster, at least after maturity, so that their lifespan would be longer than a normal human's?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Unicron said:
I have to wonder too - suppose the superman actually aged slower rather than faster, at least after maturity, so that their lifespan would be longer than a normal human's?

i'm sure that's true. Rather like Klingons. Given how we saw Alexander mature from toddler ("Reunion") to boy (TNG) to man (DS9) in a few short years - and knowing how long lived Kor, Koloth and Kang were ("Blood Oath").

Doesn't explain Molly O'Brien, of course. (Damn showbiz kids and pesky child labour laws.)

 

[Franklin]

Unicron said:
I have to wonder too - suppose the superman actually aged slower rather than faster, at least after maturity, so that their lifespan would be longer than a normal human's?

At least longer for a normal human from back in the 1990s. Montalban is 62-ish in TWOK and I wish I looked that good at half his age. They would probably be less susceptible to disease and the normal disorders of aging. So, even if they didn't live longer, a large number probably could live well into old age (100+).
Of course, they could simply live fast, live strong, and die young (burn out), too. Who's to know, really?

 

[Immolatus]

how would Kirk know who was aboard Khans ship. he never transported over. We never see all of Khans crew in "Space Seed" so he might have had children on the Botany Bay. so if he had a 12 year old in space seed he would be about 24 by the time of TWOK