Chekov's age

[Christopher]

There was no reason to make Spock a full commander at the age he was in TOS when he was a lieutenant either.

Actually Spock was a lieutenant in "The Cage" in 2254, whereas this movie is set mainly in 2258. There's certainly precedent for going from lieutenant to full commander within four years. Will Riker was a lieutenant in 2361 (according to "Peak Performance") but a full commander by the time he joined the Enterprise crew only three years later. And Geordi LaForge went from lieutenant J.G. to lieutenant commander -- an equivalent two steps in rank -- in just over one year, from the end of 2364 to the start of 2366.

 

[Pauln6]

True - so Number One must be an off-camera captain! Lets hope she was in the Laurentian System!

 

[Tara]

True - so Number One must be an off-camera captain! Lets hope she was in the Laurentian System!

That's been my assumption from the get-go. Inside my head, when they offered Pike the Enterprise, they were serving on the Yorktown and she was promoted from XO to Captain.

The one thing we do know from Pike's speech to Kirk in the bar is that Pike full expected Kirk to go from cadet to captain in 8 years. His exact words were "You could be an officer in four years, have your own ship in eight."

So in the post-Kelvin Starfleet, which is less of an exploratory force and more of a military one, expectations of how long it takes to attain the rank of Captain need to be adjusted.

 

[Timo]

Where do we get this "STXI universe is more military" stuff? Didn't Pike instead state that the military derring-do is gone from Starfleet, and they're all a bunch of wussies now?

Also, I sort of doubt Pike expected Kirk to make it to Captain rank in eight years. Get his own ship, yes. A small ship. While holding the rank of Lieutenant Commander or Commander...

The latter of which, incidentally, seems to be the rank he's holding while commanding the Enterprise in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Vonda McIntyre's ST II novelization mentioned the numerous 14 year old trainee midshipmen on board.

An intriguing idea. Were all of Scotty's teens supposed to be midshipmen, that is, studying to become officers? Or did the definition of midshipman change between now and the late 23rd?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[startrekrcks]

it seemed a bit quick how they made Kirk captain didn't it why?

 

[Tara]

Where do we get this "STXI universe is more military" stuff? Didn't Pike instead state that the military derring-do is gone from Starfleet, and they're all a bunch of wussies now?

Well, there's the use of the phrase "peacekeeping armada" for one. The design of the Enterprise for another. What Pike actually says is "You know, that instinct--to leap without looking--that was in his nature too. And in my opinion, it's something that Starfleet's lost."

The original script continued that speech, too:

PIKE
Depends on how you define winning.
You're here, aren't you?
(off Kirk's look)
That instinct to leap without looking--
that was his nature, too. And in my
opinion it's something Starfleet has
lost. We're admirable, respectable. But
overly-disciplined.
(beat)
Those cadets you took on, they'll make
competent officers -- but you can bet
your ass they'll run home to momma the
minute they're looking down the barrel of
a Klingon phaser cannon.

I wouldn't say the lack of instinct to leap without looking is calling the current Starfleet "wusses". I think it's more that the emphasis of AOS-Starfleet prior to The battle of Vulcan is more on defence than exploration, and strict military protocol rather than the flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants-cowboy-diplomacy we think of when we think of TOS (which in itself is an exaggeration).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wouldn't that indicate the opposite?

Pike wants a guy who will stand and face a Klingon phaser cannon,not someone who will run home to momma. Sound more military, not less.

 

[Tara]

I think he wants less military red tape, gazillions of reports, and citing chapter and verse of every regulation before you lift a finger to actually do anything. That's what I mean. Pike in the film strikes me as the type of captain who wants to be out their on the edge, setting foot on new worlds. And Kirk is cut from the same cloth. But Starfleet post-Kelvin feels different from Starfleet Prime, to me. And I ascribe those differences to tone, more than anything else. YMMV.

For example, Spock and Uhura represent the kind of Starfleet that Jim is rebelling against more than a bit--both at the Academy and onboard Enterprise. Kirk wants to engage--Spock wants to withdraw and follow the orders to rendevous with the fleet in the Laurentian system. Spock's playing it cautious; Kirk's playing to win. They're neither of them 100% correct--it's the combination that works in the end. They both fail in command of the Enterprise alone. The point is that they balance each other out, once they team up.

"Military" to me isn't just about superior firepower and endless rules and regs. It's about focus. Starfleet as we knew it in the Prime universe was focussed on exploration first, warfare second. At least until the Borg and Wolf 359. Then Starfleet adapted. This Starfleet, to me, not only adapted after the Kelvin--but went too far in the opposite direction. It got too regimented, too cautious, too tied up in its own rules and regs. It needs balance. It needs flexibility. And Kirk in both universes was all about knowing when to toe the line, and when to bend the rules.

 

[Timo]

Pike wants a guy who will stand and face a Klingon phaser cannon, not someone who will run home to momma. Sound more military, not less.

'Xactly. Pike wants "more military". Pike currently has "less military", and isn't happy with that.

As for other evidence on the level of military readiness in the STXI universe, Starfleet there can deploy seven ships, but lacking trained crews, and cannot defeat a single sessile enemy ship with those. Somehow, I get a more military gist from the Prime Universe Starfleet...

Also, when Prime Kirk went in to explore strange and threatening-looking space monsters in TOS, his concern and approach was quite military: he approached with caution, probed the enemy for weaknesses, then moved with due audacity. In contrast, both the Kelvin and the seven doomed ships seem to fly in with abandon, apparently expecting intriguing natural phenomena rather than malevolence...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tara]

In contrast, both the Kelvin and the seven doomed ships seem to fly in with abandon, apparently expecting intriguing natural phenomena rather than malevolence...

That's because those seven ships were told exactly that: they were going to investigate unusual seismic activity, assess the situation, and assist in evacuation if necessary. Only Enterprise knew they were going to be faced with an enemy with superior technology and weapons. And none of them knew that the drill would block transporters and communications.

Those ships weren't destroyed because they went in undermanned and unprepared. Those ships were destroyed because they were prepared for the wrong situation, and as such, came out of warp with their shields down.

Also,we've no proof that any of the other ships were manned entirely by cadets. Only Enterprise, which wasn't ready to launch yet so many of not most of her personnel was unavailable, had a cadet crew.

 

[Vonstadt]

Also,we've no proof that any of the other ships were manned entirely by cadets. Only Enterprise, which wasn't ready to launch yet so many of not most of her personnel was unavailable, had a cadet crew.

Actually that isn't so, the cadets were being assigned to multiple ships in the academy hanger bay. Uhuru's Orion friend went to the Centarus and there was mention of the Hood and Uhuru was initially assigned to the Farragut before jumping on Spock to change her assignment.

The other ships were also augmented by cadets that was the purpose of that little scene. SO the ships that got wumped on and blown to bits had several of thier fellow cadets aboard as well.

I also did not get the impression the Enterprise was an all cadet crew, in fact it seemed to me the cadets just filled int he holes. There were many officers and enlisted on board and the cadets were just there to keep the ship fully manned. Just our guys werwe the elite that had skills that exceeded those standing officers and were given field promotions to fill the need of a job that had to be done.

and Kirk was just Pike giving him the oppurtunity to full fill his destiny.

Vons

 

[Tara]

Actually that isn't so, the cadets were being assigned to multiple ships in the academy hanger bay.

That's why I said "entirely" above. There's nothing in the film that let's us know what the ratio of seasoned crewmembers to raw cadets was, on the seven ships lost at the Battle of Vulcan.

 

[SchwEnt]

True - so Number One must be an off-camera captain! Lets hope she was in the Laurentian System!

That's been my assumption from the get-go. Inside my head, when they offered Pike the Enterprise, they were serving on the Yorktown and she was promoted from XO to Captain.

The one thing we do know from Pike's speech to Kirk in the bar is that Pike full expected Kirk to go from cadet to captain in 8 years. His exact words were "You could be an officer in four years, have your own ship in eight."

So in the post-Kelvin Starfleet, which is less of an exploratory force and more of a military one, expectations of how long it takes to attain the rank of Captain need to be adjusted.

Not necessarily.
Pike could be quite right about "having his own ship in eight years", but not necessarily being Captain.

Kirk could be a Lt. or Lt.Cmdr and be captain of a destroyer or some other ship. Having your own ship doesn't have to mean holding the rank of Captain.

 

[Timo]

That's because those seven ships were told exactly that: they were going to investigate unusual seismic activity, assess the situation, and assist in evacuation if necessary.

Again, 'xactly. That bespeaks of a Starfleet not "hardened" for war, but "softened" for expecting the best of the universe. An entire planet suddenly goes silent, and Starfleet assumes seismic activity? Starfleet, through Chekov's voice, believes that Vulcan's silence is related to spatial anomalies in the Neutral Zone, but unrelated to a huge battle between Klingons and a Romulan opponent? Starfleet flies in less prepared to face malevolence than hardass Pike and his gung-ho cadet advisor? I just can't see any signs of the STXI Starfleet being more bellicose than the Prime Starfleet - the contrary in fact seems probable.

Sure, the STXI Fleet may be more timid, more set in its ways. But not because it is more heavily armed or living in a scarier universe - but because it's unaccustomed to military threats and thinks well of the universe.

There's nothing in the film that let's us know what the ratio of seasoned crewmembers to raw cadets was, on the seven ships lost at the Battle of Vulcan.

True. One would assume, though, that the Enterprise would be the odd ship out - the only one intended to be launched in the near future, and thus the one with the fullest regular crew (as observed on the bridge, where the only cadet in evidence is Kirk himself - even McCoy and Uhura are already commissioned officers).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[startrekrcks]

Are you saying that Kirk isn't the captain he was promoted captain at the end of the last film wasn't he?

 

[Pauln6]

One can be a commanding officer of a ship i.e. a captain, without actually holding the rank of captain. Similarly, in TMP, Admiral Kirk is addressed as captain when he takes control of the Enterprise.

 

[Christopher]

^Except in TMP, Kirk actually switched to a uniform with captain's stripes on the sleeve, and Decker to a uniform with commander's stripes, suggesting that they were actual reductions in rank. And I believe Kirk's sleeves in the final scenes of the new movie do have captain's stripes on them. ST has never really depicted this in a way that's accurate to naval practice, with the exception of DS9 where Worf and Dax were addressed as "captain" when they commanded the Defiant despite being of lower rank.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk could be a Lt. or Lt.Cmdr and be captain of a destroyer or some other ship.

Wasn't this actually true in TOS? I seem to remember Kirk was supposed to have commanded a smaller ship (before the 1701) before his actual promotion to Captain.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Another case of the guy in the movie not being the same character, only having the same name.

"My name is Captain Robert April, and I hate the new Star Trek movie. Thank you, and have a good day."

They killed Star Trek! Bastards!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk could be a Lt. or Lt.Cmdr and be captain of a destroyer or some other ship.

Wasn't this actually true in TOS? I seem to remember Kirk was supposed to have commanded a smaller ship (before the 1701) before his actual promotion to Captain.

Part of the backstory but not mentioned on screen. On screen we have Dehner saying Kirk asked for Gary to be part of his first command. Unclear if that command is the Enterprise or another ship.