Characters Of Depth And Complexity

[The Wormhole]

While recently re-watching Shore Leave, I was shocked by the level of depth and complexity displayed in the character of Finnegan. Now before you begin groaning and lambasting mem of if you're a moderator closing this thread, hear me out. I am not suggesting Finnegan should be in the movie. We've been over this at great length already and people are rightfully annoyed over this discussion. However, what should be in this movie is a character of depth and complexity, on the level of Finnegan's.

Finnegan, for those of you unfamiliar with the character, was an Academy prankster who constantly picked on Kirk and was an unintentional catalyst of Kirk becoming the ideal Starfleet officer we all know him as. This adds a certain pathos to the character of Jim Kirk that defines who and what he is. I fear without a similar character in this movie, Chris Pine's Kirk won't be as well defined as Shatner's Kirk. Pine's will in fact be a poser, Kirk-lite if you will.

Now the character does not have to be Finnegan. They can simply create a new character. A slacker cadet who Kirk can't stand and therefore strives to be better than. A rival cadet that is better than Kirk, and therefore Kirk pushes himself to be better than him/her. What I'm saying is that without a character of depth and complexity like Finnegan, the Jim Kirk of this movie won't be the same as James T Kirk of TOS.

 

[Borgminister]

I disagree. That is to say, I think the journey doesn't have to include Finnegan as a motivator; Pike will do just fine, thanks.

 

[shapeshifter]

I agree. Pike is that character.

 

[SalvorHardin]

I disagree. That is to say, I think the journey doesn't have to include Finnegan as a motivator; Pike will do just fine, thanks.

I agree. Pike is that character.

What they said...

 

[The Wormhole]

You guys aren't thinking on the same level. Pike is a mentor, and yes mentors are necessary. However, mentors are not always enough. Sometimes it takes someone who is on equal level to cement someone on their life's path, and Pike can't really be considered Kirk's equal at this point. Shore Leave clearly established Finnegan as Kirk's equal. Another equal is required for the movie otherwise the essence of who James Kirk is will be lost.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well from what I've heard I wonder if young Spock dosen't fill this role.

 

[Borgminister]

Another equal is required for the movie otherwise the essence of who James Kirk is will be lost.

Again, I disagree, and as mentioned, perhaps young Spock fills that role.

Pike as a father figure given that he never had a father is far more profound an impact than a drinking buddy, sorry; it goes beyond being a mentor.

 

[Sector 7]

Pike is a mentor. He challenges James T. Kirk to be as good as his father. The catalyst could very well be Capt. Kirk, Sr. as in:
"Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved eight hundred lives... including yours. I dare you to do better. Enlist in Starfleet." Captain Christopher Pike
It seems to me, Jim already has someone to challenge him to be better.

*Thanks to Salvador Hardin's signature I didn't even have to look up the quote.*

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Another equal is required for the movie otherwise the essence of who James Kirk is will be lost.

Nope; the "essence of Jim Kirk" was just fine for the sixteen episodes prior to "Shore Leave."

We won't get all of the character detail and character development in a two-hour film that accumulates week after week in episodic TV. Over a period of several movies it's possible to get some of that. That said, it's misdirected to suggest that, in order to properly define the character, relationships and details of sorts that were absent for a long time in the original version of Star Trek need to be crammed into the first movie.

 

[pookha]

You guys aren't thinking on the same level. Pike is a mentor, and yes mentors are necessary. However, mentors are not always enough. Sometimes it takes someone who is on equal level to cement someone on their life's path, and Pike can't really be considered Kirk's equal at this point. Shore Leave clearly established Finnegan as Kirk's equal. Another equal is required for the movie otherwise the essence of who James Kirk is will be lost.

it sounds like even though spock is his senior in years and standing in the movie spock may be taking over that role.

for all we know spock among other things may not like the fact that kirk cheated on the koybashi maru and got a commendation for it.

it might have taken spock awhile to appreciate kirk's original thinking.

 

[adg]

1) Finnegan was never an "equal" to Kirk. He was a gadfly.

2) Finnegan was never a catalyst for Kirk becoming "Kirk".

You are giving Finnegan way more importance that was intended.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I always thought Kirk was a little "thin skinned" to let Finnegan bother him so much psychologically.

Granted, Finnegan did deserve a physical beat down, but beyond that Finnegan was just a pesty little nobody "punk" that didn't deserve a second thought or additional metal anguish on Kirk's part.

Punks like Finnegan disparately want to get on peoples nerves, and Kirk just played right into his hands.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Finnegan story fits in with Kirk being a too-serious, "positively grim" young man. They've obviously changed that, most likely because it wouldn't make a good contrast with young Spock, who has the emotionally repressed territory mapped out already.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Can't people just be thoroughly excited with this movie just once??

 

[dkehler]

Can't people just be thoroughly excited with this movie just once??

Why?

 

[urbandk]

I'm wondering whether there will be songs of faith and devotion.

 

[Captain Pike]

Really.. Characters of Depth and Complexity - Finnegan.

Finnegan!? Jeezus! He has as much depth and complexity as a teacup.

C'mon man. If I thought you were joking, I'd say "Spiffing jape there my good fellow" or something, but this is just lunacy.

Finnegan!.. (I'm shaking my head right now in case you can't visualize it.)

 

[The Wormhole]

Really.. Characters of Depth and Complexity - Finnegan.

Finnegan!? Jeezus! He has as much depth and complexity as a teacup.

C'mon man. If I thought you were joking, I'd say "Spiffing jape there my good fellow" or something, but this is just lunacy.

Finnegan!.. (I'm shaking my head right now in case you can't visualize it.)

Finnegan is a poignant example of the rigors of youth as during the transition to adulthood, clashing with the independant responsibilities and expectations unique to both stages of life. With this in consideration, Finnegan is indeed one of Trek's most complex characters with the most depth.

I know of no one who can match this level of depth and complexity. Harry Kim and Travis Mayweather come close, but don't quite measure up. I suppose Chief Engineer Argyle from TNG equally as deep and complex, but for completely different reasons.

 

[urbandk]

Really.. Characters of Depth and Complexity - Finnegan.

Finnegan!? Jeezus! He has as much depth and complexity as a teacup.

C'mon man. If I thought you were joking, I'd say "Spiffing jape there my good fellow" or something, but this is just lunacy.

Finnegan!.. (I'm shaking my head right now in case you can't visualize it.)

Finnegan is a poignant example of the rigors of youth as during the transition to adulthood, clashing with the independant responsibilities and expectations unique to both stages of life. With this in consideration, Finnegan is indeed one of Trek's most complex characters with the most depth.

I know of no one who can match this level of depth and complexity. Harry Kim and Travis Mayweather come close, but don't quite measure up. I suppose Chief Engineer Argyle from TNG equally as deep and complex, but for completely different reasons.

You forgot Wesley Crusher and Nog.

 

[urbandk]

And that Children of the Corn episode... Clara!