"Chaos on the Bridge" Now on Netflix streaming in the US

[Vger23]

When Torme told the story about a writer being fired by Roddenberry, he was talking about himself, correct?

Looking at the TNG season 1 credits, it probably was Greg Strangis, who was credited as a staff writer for a few episodes mid-season 1 the same time Tracey Torme was around and also had an unproduced script listed in unofficial reference books called "The Neutral Zone".

Other option could be Johnny Dawkins, who was the story editor for 4 episodes at the beginning.

I'm pretty sure Greg Strangis left on his own to develop Paramount's other syndicated sci-fi series, "War of the Worlds" which premiered in 1988.

 

[BillJ]

And her script wasn't an hour long, it was 90 minutes. The Q material Roddenberry added only adds up to about a quarter of the whole, and yet he got half the money. In the past, Roddenberry wouldn't put his name on the scripts he rewrote. Heck, Roddenberry, Fontana, and one or two other people rewrote "City on the Edge of Forever," but they still let Ellison get all the credit and money for it.

The documentary said the pilot episode was originally suppose to be in a one hour slot and Roddenberry added about thirty to make it fit a two hour slot (after some arm twisting). So I'd imagine Fontana's original script was probably about forty-five minutes.

which doesn't hold up, because every other Trek sequel series gave creator credit to its pilot writers.

That was seven years later, there was probably a shift somewhere during that time.

 

[BillJ]

Any way you slice it, "Encounter at Farpoint" would've been unwatchable without the Roddenberry additions.

 

[Maurice]

This reminds me of Dorothy Fontana in Rod Roddenberry's doc, where she said she and Gene did not part well because he rewrote her.

I'm still scratching my head on that one. She was there during TOS, she saw him rewrite people all the time. SHE rewrote people. Did she think she was immune?

And she knew the Paramount brass wanted her one-hour pilot expanded to two hours, and she wouldn't do it. What did she think was going to happen?

First of all, that's not what happened. She was asked to write the pilot, which she did, then Gene jammed in the Q material and put his name on the script (don't buy a thing Richard Arnold says about this matter). According to her, her old friend Gene lied to her about why he was rewriting her. That she had to take the matter to arbitration to get the credit issue resolved, and that she also filed a complaint over the provenance of the show bible (who created the show, format, characters), that's a friendship-wrecker right there.

In the past, Roddenberry wouldn't put his name on the scripts he rewrote.

Gene got into trouble over "unnecessary" rewrites on TOS (as detailed in Inside Star Trek). Many of those would have gotten him into trouble had he tried to put his name on them. The 30% rewrite rule of the WGAw and all that.

Heck, Roddenberry, Fontana, and one or two other people rewrote "City on the Edge of Forever," but they still let Ellison get all the credit and money for it.

Let? They WANTED Ellison's name on it. It was good P.R. Ellison even threatened to put his "Cordwainder Bird" F.U. pen name on it at one point.

There's also the fact that, as the writer or co-writer of the pilot script, Fontana was entitled to creator credit for TNG, but Roddenberry somehow convinced the Writer's Guild to give him exclusive credit on the grounds that TNG was merely an extension of TOS -- which doesn't hold up, because every other Trek sequel series gave creator credit to its pilot writers.

That's also not quite how it works or quite what happened. And that matter was settled out of court.

 

[Christopher]

There's also the fact that, as the writer or co-writer of the pilot script, Fontana was entitled to creator credit for TNG, but Roddenberry somehow convinced the Writer's Guild to give him exclusive credit on the grounds that TNG was merely an extension of TOS -- which doesn't hold up, because every other Trek sequel series gave creator credit to its pilot writers.

That's also not quite how it works or quite what happened. And that matter was settled out of court.

I looked up WGA rules -- the two main ways that you can get creator credit are by writing/co-writing the pilot script or writing/co-writing the series bible. Fontana wrote most of the pilot and Gerrold wrote most of the first draft of the bible. So however it was settled, it was settled unfairly. Roddenberry was hardly the exclusive creator of TNG.

 

[Doug Otte]

Any way you slice it, "Encounter at Farpoint" would've been unwatchable without the Roddenberry additions.

I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as "unwatchable." It did have to unload a lot of expository baggage, being a pilot. However, I agree that the Farpoint part of the episode with the space jellyfish was the weakest part. And, who can argue with the fact that Q was one of the most memorable characters in all of Trek? DeLancie's performance had something to do with it, but the basic concept of a "Trelane-like" character who challenged Picard's assumptions should have been carried into the films.

Back to Roddenberry's copyright disputes, was the story about his "lyrics" to the original theme stealing 50% of Sandy Courage's royalties ever debunked?

 

[Christopher]

And, who can argue with the fact that Q was one of the most memorable characters in all of Trek? DeLancie's performance had something to do with it, but the basic concept of a "Trelane-like" character who challenged Picard's assumptions should have been carried into the films.

DeLancie's performance had everything to do with it. On paper, Q is a terrible idea. He's a rehash of a trope that TOS had already driven into the ground, his effectively magical powers didn't fit the plausible universe Roddenberry was otherwise trying to create, and his dialogue was just an excuse for Roddenberry to have his characters speechify on how much better humanity had become. And because he was grafted onto a pre-existing narrative, he couldn't really do anything for most of the episode but pop in, make a few snarky comments, and pop out. DeLancie's superbly smarmy delivery was the only thing that salvaged the lameness of the concept and made the character interesting, at least until later writers found other ways to explore the character and the idea of the Q Continuum.

 

[Treadwell]

First of all, that's not what happened. She was asked to write the pilot, which she did, then Gene jammed in the Q material and put his name on the script (don't buy a thing Richard Arnold says about this matter). According to her, her old friend Gene lied to her about why he was rewriting her. That she had to take the matter to arbitration to get the credit issue resolved, and that she also filed a complaint over the provenance of the show bible (who created the show, format, characters), that's a friendship-wrecker right there.

Thanks, that does make a lot more sense. Strange that her "short answer" in the Rod doc was "he rewrote me", which sounds petty compared to what you described. "He stole series co-creator credit from me" would seem to have been a better response. Could be editing.

 

[Maurice]

What you see in any documentary is what what the editors let you see. It may not have been everything she had to say on the subject.

 

[Christopher]

What you see in any documentary is what what the editors let you see. It may not have been everything she had to say on the subject.

Yeah. There have even been instances where a speaker's comments have been edited to totally invert the apparent meaning, like the way one of Discovery's totally fake and sleazy pseudo-documentaries a few years ago edited a scientist's comments to make it sound like he was confirming the possibility that an extinct giant shark species might actually still be alive, when in fact he was discrediting it.

This is why every source needs corroboration. Even with the best of intentions, a single source only offers one point of view, so it should be compared against other sources.

 

[Indysolo]

Back to Roddenberry's copyright disputes, was the story about his "lyrics" to the original theme stealing 50% of Sandy Courage's royalties ever debunked?

No, that's true.

Neil

 

[Christopher]

^As I recall Alexander Courage's comments on the issue, he wasn't upset in principle with the idea of collaborating with Roddenberry on the theme, just annoyed that Roddenberry didn't work with him to come up with less awkward lyrics, which drove home that it was more a cash grab than a sincere attempt at composition. (I recall Courage pointing out such unmusical aspects as combining two syllables in a single note -- e.g. "starlight" and "starflight" in the first verse -- and ending lines in sustained syllables that weren't easy to sustain, like "reaches" and "teaches.")

 

[Kor]

"Awkward" is a polite way to put it.

Kor

 

[JonnyQuest037]

First of all, that's not what happened. She was asked to write the pilot, which she did, then Gene jammed in the Q material and put his name on the script (don't buy a thing Richard Arnold says about this matter). According to her, her old friend Gene lied to her about why he was rewriting her. That she had to take the matter to arbitration to get the credit issue resolved, and that she also filed a complaint over the provenance of the show bible (who created the show, format, characters), that's a friendship-wrecker right there.

Thanks, that does make a lot more sense. Strange that her "short answer" in the Rod doc was "he rewrote me", which sounds petty compared to what you described. "He stole series co-creator credit from me" would seem to have been a better response. Could be editing.

It could also be that Fontana wasn't able to say more than she did, according to the terms of whatever settlement she reached with Roddenberry. Non-disclosure clauses aren't uncommon.

I don't believe that Gerrold is legally allowed to say how much he received in his settlement over writing the TNG bible. Harlan Ellison (under no such restrictions on this matter) alluded to the amount in his published script of COTEOF.

Notice that after GR's passing, Fontana came back to write one of the early episodes of DS9.

 

[stardream]

Just watched this. If this is accurate all I can think of is...those poor writers.

 

[HarryM]

Interesting, I found the troll-like depiction of Leonard Maizlish pretty hilarious.

 

[stardream]

Interesting, I found the troll-like depiction of Leonard Maizlish pretty hilarious.

If this was accurate he was a real piece of work.

 

[Nebusj]

Any way you slice it, "Encounter at Farpoint" would've been unwatchable without the Roddenberry additions.

I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as "unwatchable." It did have to unload a lot of expository baggage, being a pilot. However, I agree that the Farpoint part of the episode with the space jellyfish was the weakest part.

On the other hand, a lot of what's boring about it is that it goes on for about as long as middle school. It's way padded in the effort to make it an hour-and-a-half show. Take just the space jellyfish stuff and put it in 45 minutes of screen time and you have ... well, a plot that's about as twisty and turny as a Mark Trail adventure, but at least it doesn't have every scene start about two seconds too soon and end five seconds too late. It would probably flow tolerably well. (I wonder if anyone's done a fan edit to try making a single-hour episode out of it.)

And, who can argue with the fact that Q was one of the most memorable characters in all of Trek? DeLancie's performance had something to do with it, but the basic concept of a "Trelane-like" character who challenged Picard's assumptions should have been carried into the films.

DeLancie had everything to do with it, of course. The other actors who played Q were tolerable enough, but he brought this potent energy. His role in `Encounter at Farpoint' is kind of like that of like Peter Ustinov in Logan's Run. The story's this blandly genial plodding business and then all of a sudden he intrudes, being all charismatic, and suddenly everything becomes interesting.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Take just the space jellyfish stuff and put it in 45 minutes of screen time and you have ... well, a plot that's about as twisty and turny as a Mark Trail adventure, but at least it doesn't have every scene start about two seconds too soon and end five seconds too late. It would probably flow tolerably well. (I wonder if anyone's done a fan edit to try making a single-hour episode out of it.)

That's a very interesting idea. I'd like to see what Fontana's original story was like before Q was shoehorned into it. Has her original script for "Encounter at Farpoint" ever been released in any form?

 

[Christopher]

DeLancie had everything to do with it, of course. The other actors who played Q were tolerable enough, but he brought this potent energy. His role in `Encounter at Farpoint' is kind of like that of like Peter Ustinov in Logan's Run. The story's this blandly genial plodding business and then all of a sudden he intrudes, being all charismatic, and suddenly everything becomes interesting.

Even though the dialogue he was given was pretty terrible. It's to DeLancie's immense credit that he was able to make it interesting at all. (Although he had even worse dialogue in "Hide and Q." Particularly his cringeworthy insult of Worf -- "Macro-head with a micro-brain." That's the level of insult a 12-year-old would use, and the words themselves sound terrible. And that's one of the scripts where Roddenberry got a writing credit. I wonder, was that his line or Maizlish's?)