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Chancellor Martok in the Litverse

I also find myself wondering why Federation Standard/English translates the term Qang as "Chancellor." German Chancellors are so called because the administrators who headed the clerics at imperial palaces during the era of the Carolingian Empire issued deeds and capitularies -- administrators whose title, chancellor, was descended from the Latin term cancellarius, the scribes and ushers who sat on the lattice-works that separated judges from courts.

Maybe there's a similar history at work in the evolution of the Qang? Perhaps the Qang was originally a scribe or usher who served the Emperor on some sort of dais or lattice-work that separated him from the High Council? And then Federation translators, seeing the parallel between the evolution of the office of Qang and the evolution of the office of Kanzler in German history, decided to set "Chancellor" as the English/Federation Standard translation of Qang.

Has Treklit retconned K'mpec into being a Chancellor? Because in the show, he's just called "leader of the (High) Council." Based on canon, is it possible to make Chancellor and Leader of the High Council two separate positions that are sometimes held by the same person? Like, K'mpec was the Leader of the High Council but not Chancellor, while Gowron was initially just Leader of the High Council, but also became Chancellor around 2372. (And maybe Gorkon and Azetbur were Chancellor, but not leaders of the High Council?) With historically, the Chancellor serving as an interface between the Leader of the High Council and the Emperor, as you say, but some power-hungry ruler took both titles for himself at some point.

That's a good point, Stevil. Trek lit has indeed clarified that K'mpec was Chancellor, and that the Leader of the High Council is the Chancellor, but there are definitely other ways to make sense of the canonical details, and the shift in terminology. As you say, TNG never used the title "Chancellor" and consistently referred to both K'mpec and Gowron as the "leader of the Council"; DS9 confirmed that Gowron is Chancellor. Having the two be separate positions (technically if no longer in practice) seems reasonable enough, but Trek lit has gone with the interpretation that the Leader of the Council was always the Chancellor.

That said, given Sci's comments regarding language and translation, maybe some in the Federation dispute the translation of Qang as Chancellor? Perhaps Picard simply dislikes the label "Chancellor", disputing it on the basis of his scholarly preferences, and prefers a less controversial and more straightforward description of the role?
 
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As you say, TNG never used the title "Chancellor" and consistently referred to both K'mpec and Gowron as the "leader of the Council"; DS9 confirmed that Gowron is Chancellor.

Which, of course, is because the term "Chancellor" wasn't coined until The Undiscovered Country, which came out during TNG's fifth season.
 
But even in "Rightful Heir" (season 6) Gowron is still "Leader of the High Council"; it takes four years for tv to finally pick up "Chancellor" from the films!
 
Martok travels back in time to meet chancellor Angela Merkel. I'd like to see Merkel's face when she is confronted with gagh. Refusing it would be considered as diplomatic incident....:devil:
 
Martok travels back in time to meet chancellor Angela Merkel. I'd like to see Merkel's face when she is confronted with gagh. Refusing it would be considered as diplomatic incident....:devil:

I'm waiting for Arminius to return in clone form and face Merkel in combat. It will end with Merkel retaining the leadership but Arminius granted a figurehead position.
 
Martok travels back in time to meet chancellor Angela Merkel. I'd like to see Merkel's face when she is confronted with gagh. Refusing it would be considered as diplomatic incident....:devil:

I'm waiting for Arminius to return in clone form and face Merkel in combat. It will end with Merkel retaining the leadership but Arminius granted a figurehead position.

Silvio Berlusconi wouldn't stand a chance in a bat'leth fight against Martok..... :klingon: It's only fitting that I'm currently listening to some epic Ennio Morricone tunes.....
 
Has Treklit retconned K'mpec into being a Chancellor? Because in the show, he's just called "leader of the (High) Council." Based on canon, is it possible to make Chancellor and Leader of the High Council two separate positions that are sometimes held by the same person? Like, K'mpec was the Leader of the High Council but not Chancellor, while Gowron was initially just Leader of the High Council, but also became Chancellor around 2372. (And maybe Gorkon and Azetbur were Chancellor, but not leaders of the High Council?) With historically, the Chancellor serving as an interface between the Leader of the High Council and the Emperor, as you say, but some power-hungry ruler took both titles for himself at some point.

I don't think that's a retcon, just the interpretation taken. He also referred to himself as "Klingon Supreme Commander", and the two together certainly imply that he was the head of state of the Klingon Empire, the position of which was later regularly referred to as "Chancellor". Yours is a valid interpretation too, sure, but it's only a retcon if something is changed; this was more filling in a gap.

Edit: How do I keep missing when there's a new page.
 
I doubt that there are any provisions in Klingon law for a Chancellor who wishes to cease being Chancellor -- it's probably literally never happened.

I still wonder, actually, if Worf can be considered to have been Chancellor, in all but the official legal sense - which might seem a silly thing to say and an omission that renders the whole concept meaningless, except that with Klingons I get the impression that said technical legalities are relatively unimportant to defining the role. Where do you draw the line?

It's an interesting question. Clearly Klingon law allows someone who slays the sitting Qang in honorable combat to ascend to the position of Qang. And clearly Klingon law also allows that victor to appoint someone else as Qang in his stead. So the question is, would Klingon law regard that victor as having been Qang in whatever period of time passed between the prior Qang's death and the victor's affirmation of either himself or of a third party as the new Qang?

My personal inclination would be to assume that when someone defeats the sitting Qang in honorable combat, they would essentially be assuming the role of Arbiter of Succession (or some other such title). And that as Arbiter, he is either appointing himself, or another, as Qang. Now, that's just my speculation. But it feels more intuitive to me to assume that the Klingons would not count someone as having been Qang for the thirty seconds that passed between Gowron's heart stopping and the proclamation of Martok as the new Qang.

So, by my interpretation, Worf was essentially succeeding Picard as Arbiter of Succession, rather than Gowron as Qang. (Two Qangs in a row appointed by Federation citizens -- how awkward!)

Was Martok not technically chancellor until his return to Qo'noS in The Left Hand of Destiny?

My interpretation would be that Martok immediately became Qang upon Worf's proclamation of him as such, and that he no more needed to return to Qo'noS to legally be Qang than Elizabeth II legally needed her coronation to become Queen; the succession was instant and not contingent upon completion of a ritual.

I do find myself wondering about the vocabulary of the Klingon Chancellorship. Is it better to use words like "office," "govern," and "resign?" Or better to use words like "throne," "reign," and "abdicate?" The Emperor may be the ceremonial monarch, but the Chancellorship does strike me as being very monarch-like in its functionality.

Political terminology is your thing and not mine, of course, but I do find myself with the same dilemma. I tend to go with the latter, if only because the former set is less absolute and dramatic, and to my subjective assessment is more bureaucratic and cautious. The latter is more Klingon. Perhaps not technically justifiable, but as you say, the flavour is a suitable fit.

I also find myself wondering why Federation Standard/English translates the term Qang as "Chancellor." German Chancellors are so called because the administrators who headed the clerics at imperial palaces during the era of the Carolingian Empire issued deeds and capitularies -- administrators whose title, chancellor, was descended from the Latin term cancellarius, the scribes and ushers who sat on the lattice-works that separated judges from courts.

Maybe there's a similar history at work in the evolution of the Qang? Perhaps the Qang was originally a scribe or usher who served the Emperor on some sort of dais or lattice-work that separated him from the High Council? And then Federation translators, seeing the parallel between the evolution of the office of Qang and the evolution of the office of Kanzler in German history, decided to set "Chancellor" as the English/Federation Standard translation of Qang.

That seems very reasonable to my admittedly far-less-knowledgeable-than-you-on-the-subject eye.

Very kind, thank you -- but I just looked the stuff up on Wikipedia, so I don't want to portray myself as some kind of expert on the evolution of German governance.

The Chancellor does seem to be distinct from the High Council he leads, and is clearly some sort of functional replacement for the position of emperor (before the emperor was reinstated in line with what Trek lit has amusingly established as the Romulan model), so whatever role it developed out of probably supported the Emperor's position in some usefully administrative way?

Possibly. On the other hand, it occurs to me that Ambassador Kamarang's exact line in TUC was, "The Chancellor of the High Council is dead!" So the full title is apparently "Chancellor of the High Council" -- perhaps the officers that the Qang-ship evolved from originally were porters/ushers who served the High Council rather than the Emperor, and thus have retained that title even though they now lead it rather than serve it per se?

Sorry for the break; I meant that since 1997 there are no hereditary Lords - it's not a house of nobles. Instead they are by appointment - former ministers and parliamentariansl party donors; politicians; members of industry; doctors; scientists; experts; and ten bishops of the Church of England, who are a mix of lower and middle and upper class backgrounds, and whose elevation to the episcopacy is effectively by appointment.

According to Wikipedia's article on the House of Lords, there are still some hereditary peers who sit in the Lords -- it's restricted to 92 hereditary peers who are elected from among their number by the Alternative Vote system.

Until then it was different of course! But the modern House is more of a random pot of experts and politically-tied members.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

What is the point of the expensive House of Lords?!

Yeah that's what i think - it's to balance out the MPs, who are much more tied to whips, with people who have worked. It's too often the complaint about the Commons that they are mostly professional politicians; at least in the Lords are a more diverse range of world-ed members who can provide more expert opinion on Bills. They also serve to stall certain bills being pushed through the Commons by the Government, which may have been ill thought out or require further analysis. It's easy to critique the Lords - I used to - but then it became clear that the Lords can and do very important services. It's why I am opposed to another elected house - it will mean the same kind of people going into the Second House - rather than the genuine opportunity for different people in it (like the Bishops, or - love or hate him - Alan Sugar). I think what the House of Lords requires is refinement - it is good that former members of government across all parties are members, but it would also be good to add more people from different backgrounds relevant for society.

Not to go off on a tangent, but this brings to mind Kim Stanley Robinson's design for a Martian government as part of his Mars trilogy. In his companion anthology The Martians, Robinson includes the Constitution of Mars. And because he wanted to address the idea you just did, about a legislature that's full of career politicians who may not be well-tied to the "real world," Robinson set Mars's legislature as a Congress with two houses -- a Senate full of elected Senators... and a Duma, the lower house, whose membership is chosen by lottery from among all adult Martian residents every two Martian years. The idea being that you get a more diverse range of experiences and a closer connection to the people, while also acknowledging that the Duma won't be the primary engine of government.

I have to admit that the idea is somewhat attractive.

I also find myself wondering why Federation Standard/English translates the term Qang as "Chancellor." German Chancellors are so called because the administrators who headed the clerics at imperial palaces during the era of the Carolingian Empire issued deeds and capitularies -- administrators whose title, chancellor, was descended from the Latin term cancellarius, the scribes and ushers who sat on the lattice-works that separated judges from courts.

Maybe there's a similar history at work in the evolution of the Qang? Perhaps the Qang was originally a scribe or usher who served the Emperor on some sort of dais or lattice-work that separated him from the High Council? And then Federation translators, seeing the parallel between the evolution of the office of Qang and the evolution of the office of Kanzler in German history, decided to set "Chancellor" as the English/Federation Standard translation of Qang.

Has Treklit retconned K'mpec into being a Chancellor? Because in the show, he's just called "leader of the (High) Council."

The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible did indeed establish K'mpec as having been Chancellor, yeah. However, you bring up a good point there. Between that, and the reference to "Klingon Supreme Commander," I do find myself wondering if maybe the modern Klingon Qang is a bit like the ancient Roman Emperor or the modern Chinese President -- an office that lacks certain legal authorities in and of itself, but which is often held as a sort of "centerpiece" office by someone holding multiple offices simultaneously which collectively confer supreme executive authority onto the office-holder through their unique separate legal powers.

So, for instance, maybe the modern Qang became the supreme executive of the Klingon state because the holder of that office also acquired the office of "Leader of the High Council" and/or the office of "Supreme Commander of the Klingon Defense Force," holding them simultaneously with the office of Qang? And so, legally-speaking, being Qang might not automatically make you the Big Cheese, but the person who becomes Qang also acquires those titles ex officio? This is similar to how the President of the People's Republic of China is an office that is given as a sort of "centerpiece" to the leader of the PRC, yet his actual power base derives from his position as head of the Communist Party and as head of the army. (Or, for a more benign example, the Prime Minister of the U.K. gets paid, and holds 10 Downing Street, because he/she is ex officio First Lord of the Treasury.)

That might give us some insight into the legalities of Gowron's succession crisis? Maybe his position as Qang was assured, but he had some trouble coupling the position of "Leader of the High Council" with the position of Qang, helping cause the constitutional crisis? Just some speculation.

Based on canon, is it possible to make Chancellor and Leader of the High Council two separate positions that are sometimes held by the same person? Like, K'mpec was the Leader of the High Council but not Chancellor, while Gowron was initially just Leader of the High Council, but also became Chancellor around 2372. (And maybe Gorkon and Azetbur were Chancellor, but not leaders of the High Council?) With historically, the Chancellor serving as an interface between the Leader of the High Council and the Emperor, as you say, but some power-hungry ruler took both titles for himself at some point.

And here you are, saying what I just said much more succinctly. Entirely possible, yep!

That's a good point, Stevil. Trek lit has indeed clarified that K'mpec was Chancellor, and that the Leader of the High Council is the Chancellor, but there are definitely other ways to make sense of the canonical details, and the shift in terminology. As you say, TNG never used the title "Chancellor" and consistently referred to both K'mpec and Gowron as the "leader of the Council"; DS9 confirmed that Gowron is Chancellor. Having the two be separate positions (technically if no longer in practice) seems reasonable enough, but Trek lit has gone with the interpretation that the Leader of the Council was always the Chancellor.

That said, given Sci's comments regarding language and translation, maybe some in the Federation dispute the translation of Qang as Chancellor? Perhaps Picard simply dislikes the label "Chancellor", disputing it on the basis of his scholarly preferences, and prefers a less controversial and more straightforward description of the role?

The possibility that there's just some dispute within Federation Standard about how to translate Qang is also entirely possible!

Martok travels back in time to meet chancellor Angela Merkel. I'd like to see Merkel's face when she is confronted with gagh. Refusing it would be considered as diplomatic incident....:devil:

I'm waiting for Arminius to return in clone form and face Merkel in combat. It will end with Merkel retaining the leadership but Arminius granted a figurehead position.

Silvio Berlusconi wouldn't stand a chance in a bat'leth fight against Martok..... :klingon: It's only fitting that I'm currently listening to some epic Ennio Morricone tunes.....

Berlusconi would try to hit on the Lady Sirella before getting his groping hand chopped off -- by an angry Sirella, as Martok looks on, laughing!
 
So the term `chancellor´in the Klingon sense is much discussed.

Then there is the term `First Minister of Bajor´. In the German novels it is translated as Erster Minister, on TV as Premierminister. Premierminister would be Prime Minister. Where's the difference? And which translation would be correct? As far as I know, no German would say Erster Minister. Ministerpräsident is more common. But I wouldn't use it in the Bajoran government context.
 
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So the term `chancello´in the Klingon sense is much discussed.

Then there is the term `First Minister of Bajor´. In the German novels it is translated as Erster Minister, on TV as Premierminister. Premierminister would be Prime Minister. Where's the difference? And which translation would be correct? As far as I know, no German would say Erster Minister. Ministerpräsident is more common. But I wouldn't use it in the Bajoran government context.

I don't think there is a huge difference. The First Minister of Bajor seems to be the leader of the Chamber of Ministers the same way the Prime Minster of an Earth government is the leader of an executive ministerial body. The only difference I can gather seems to be that while a Prime Minister is a sole position amongst a ministerial body, the existence of the title of Second Minister as the First Minister's deputy official and next in line in succession seems to suggest that all members of the Chamber of Ministers are ranked in power or priority or seniority or something along those lines in some manner or another. They're not the Prime minister in the sense of being the singular most important one amongst a body of otherwise-equals, they're the First minister on an overall list of ministers.

Sci would know better than me if this makes any sense from a governmental perspective, though.
 
So the term `chancello´in the Klingon sense is much discussed.

Then there is the term `First Minister of Bajor´. In the German novels it is translated as Erster Minister, on TV as Premierminister. Premierminister would be Prime Minister. Where's the difference? And which translation would be correct? As far as I know, no German would say Erster Minister. Ministerpräsident is more common. But I wouldn't use it in the Bajoran government context.

I don't think there is a huge difference. The First Minister of Bajor seems to be the leader of the Chamber of Ministers the same way the Prime Minster of an Earth government is the leader of an executive ministerial body. The only difference I can gather seems to be that while a Prime Minister is a sole position amongst a ministerial body, the existence of the title of Second Minister as the First Minister's deputy official and next in line in succession seems to suggest that all members of the Chamber of Ministers are ranked in power in some manner or another.

Sorry, forgot the r in chancellor :)
 
I do find myself wondering if maybe the modern Klingon Qang is a bit like the ancient Roman Emperor or the modern Chinese President -- an office that lacks certain legal authorities in and of itself, but which is often held as a sort of "centerpiece" office by someone holding multiple offices simultaneously which collectively confer supreme executive authority onto the office-holder through their unique separate legal powers.

You made the same argument regarding the Emperor of the Centauri in Babylon Five, as I recall.

That might give us some insight into the legalities of Gowron's succession crisis? Maybe his position as Qang was assured, but he had some trouble coupling the position of "Leader of the High Council" with the position of Qang, helping cause the constitutional crisis? Just some speculation.

I like this idea. The speculation that there are multiple foundations for the Chancellor's authority and that they might not come as a package if you don't pull off your ascent correctly raises all sorts of interesting possibilities; it certainly makes the Klingon political plotlines more nuanced and interesting.

And because he wanted to address the idea you just did, about a legislature that's full of career politicians who may not be well-tied to the "real world," Robinson set Mars's legislature as a Congress with two houses -- a Senate full of elected Senators... and a Duma, the lower house, whose membership is chosen by lottery from among all adult Martian residents every two Martian years. The idea being that you get a more diverse range of experiences and a closer connection to the people, while also acknowledging that the Duma won't be the primary engine of government.

I have to admit that the idea is somewhat attractive.

If I might take a heady dive into personal musings here...

In my opinion, the last people you want running things are career politicians. Politicians are masters of politics, that's the whole point; they seek positions of security, influence, or authority through social manoeuvring. So they stir up support from the populace through appeal to common assumptions or instinctual impulses, they ride the waves of popular thought while tweaking it and they direct disorder to achieve momentary outcomes that (supposedly) benefit the politicians. It's a system that can never be allowed to actually function, nor can it be disassembled. In order to ascend, or to maintain their position relative to others, politicians must wrack the system with stresses without seeking to alleviate those stresses or permit an actual collapse. When one's foundation for support comes from discontentment and perceived dysfunction, discontentment and dysfunction must remain.

Anyone operating within a tribal framework seeks to ensure their security and their claim to membership by conforming to the shape of that society, by altering their behaviour, attitudes and assumptions to fit those of the people around them, sharing their fundamental perception of the world. Preserving the integrity of the group structure is considered paramount, but to acquire greater status within the group there has to be a shake-up. Behaviours are governed by two almost paradoxical urges: to assimilate into the group (subordinate the self to group identity) and to stand out as an exceptional individual (promote the self relative to others within the group). In order to preserve the current social model while also creating opportunities for one's greater pursuit of influence one needs to cause disorder or channel discontent, so one may ride that localized uncertainty into a new position or boost the status of the self. (This is by no means confined to parliaments and councils, of course, and the tendency to view politics and social influence in those terms alone, or primarily, is a problematic one in my opinion). I'm not saying some good doesn't result from this on occasion, but I don't see how you can base a successful system on what is essentially a constant deconstruction that nonetheless seeks to maintain the shape of things. Pulling and tugging and undermining the structural integrity of a body, with more time spent checking itself than actually performing a useful function. Societies need to run on practical expertise, not on social manoeuvring. People will do the latter anyway, it seems foolish to prioritise it. Career politicians are those expertly trained to exploit and create problems, rather than fix them. Putting dedicated politicians in charge of things is like putting crooked art dealers in charge of your museum.

I'd much prefer having engineers and doctors and farmers and sewage workers in government roles. It just makes no sense to me to favour politicians in government, when politics is going to happen anyway and the point of a government should be to ensure that the society is running productively and to the benefit of those within it. It's a practical task and should be approached as such. Yes, you need those who are particularly good at politics, but they can be the oil between the gears. Having the government be a huge pool of oil with a few gears floating around in it is no good now, is it?

Politicians are like soldiers - they're useful, but you don't put them in charge.

(EDIT: As ever with my positions on matters like this, there's the admitted problem that my mind simply works differently from the majority, so it's always a question of whether what seems intuitive and logical for me could actually translate over to the majority and be functional).
 
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Then there is the term `First Minister of Bajor´. In the German novels it is translated as Erster Minister, on TV as Premierminister. Premierminister would be Prime Minister. Where's the difference? And which translation would be correct?

"Prime" is from the Latin Primus, meaning "first." So "First Minister" and "Prime Minister" are really the same title, linguistically speaking. (Which makes it rather silly that Teal'c's former title in Stargate SG-1 was "First Prime of Apophis.") I'd assume that DS9's writers intended the First Minister to be a Prime Minister, but tweaked the title a little to make it sound slightly more exotic.
 
I guess Martok wouldn't be happy about this hairsplitting regarding political terms. He's a man of action.
 
Which makes it rather silly that Teal'c's former title in Stargate SG-1 was "First Prime of Apophis."

I don't know the Stargate universe or what a First Prime is or does (or indeed what Apophis is in this context), but is it possible that there were multiple polities or subdivisions with their own Primes which later unified, and so the position of First Prime, despite being a linguistic redundancy, makes some historical sense, at least?
 
I guess Martok wouldn't be happy about this hairsplitting regarding political terms. He's a man of action.

Although Klingons have been presented as placing considerable emphasis on language as a political tool. The whole business from the background texts by Okrand regarding ta' Hol, the Emperor's Klingon. Martok is a commoner from the Ketha Lowlands - his language, including his favoured terminology, would probably be reason enough to earn him enmity from some quarters. Martok might have to pay some attention to linguistic disputes.
 
I don't know the Stargate universe or what a First Prime is or does (or indeed what Apophis is in this context), but is it possible that there were multiple polities or subdivisions with their own Primes which later unified, and so the position of First Prime, despite being a linguistic redundancy, makes some historical sense, at least?

Apophis was a Goa'uld System Lord (alien dictator/warlord), and his First Prime was the head of his army (though Teal'c defected to the good guys in the series pilot). Each System Lord had his or her own First Prime. There's no canonical mention of any other rank of Prime as far as I know, though apparently there are Second Primes in the RPG.
 
Martok was doubtless one of the most interesting characters DS9 had to offer.


I was surprised when I saw that J.G. Hertzler wrote a novel about Martok together with Jeffrey Lang: The Left Hand of Destiny (I+II). The German publisher is not inclined to translate it, which is a crying shame. I have ordered it (at exorbitant prices) and read it several years ago. It was great, like an episode playing out in my head.


According to LHoD we know that Sirella has died. I don’t know anything about Klingon mourning rites, but he could pick a new wife if he were inclined to do so.



Martok had as chancellor already his hands full. Morjod’s coup, the Borg incursion, the Kuvagh Magh issue and so on…..


I hope that Martok shows up at least once in a while in the upcoming novels, as he did in the Typhon Pact novels. More scenes on Qo`noS are much appreciated.



Any Martok fans here? :klingon: :klingon: :klingon:

:rommie: Andrew J Robinson did the same thing when the series had ended. I never got a chance to read the novel when it was in print, but I hear its pretty good book about Garak back in Cardassia in it's post war era. I hope one day the book will get reprint into a hardcover edition.
 
I don't know the Stargate universe or what a First Prime is or does (or indeed what Apophis is in this context), but is it possible that there were multiple polities or subdivisions with their own Primes which later unified, and so the position of First Prime, despite being a linguistic redundancy, makes some historical sense, at least?

Apophis was a Goa'uld System Lord (alien dictator/warlord), and his First Prime was the head of his army (though Teal'c defected to the good guys in the series pilot). Each System Lord had his or her own First Prime. There's no canonical mention of any other rank of Prime as far as I know, though apparently there are Second Primes in the RPG.

Ah. In that case, then, justifying it does seem a bit difficult, doesn't it?

Although I assume System Lords have a bit of an egotistical streak, so maybe they're just... really enthusiastic about their top warrior's primacy? :lol:
 
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