Challenge for all atheists

[Kemaiku]

Oh my, no. The lake of fire may be warm, but my jacuzzi gets its water from angel tears. It is very relaxing.

If I hadn't reduced my guardian Angel to an alcoholic years ago, I might take issue with that remark.

 

[Amaris]

If I hadn't reduced my guardian Angel to an alcoholic years ago, I might take issue with that remark.

You won't find a more saline solution.

 

[Kemaiku]

You won't find a more saline solution.

Well I mean, it's not like we could actually drive an Angel to dr...

Oh.

 

[BillJ]

I just want to be left alone, to live my life in peace. I don't go to religious folks homes or churches and tell them about the advantages of not believing in God. But, by the same token, why should I respect their life choices when they clearly don't respect mine?

 

[Nerys Myk]

With that one sentence, you are now my friend for life.

If you want to use the jacuzzi, you should extend the friendship to the afterlife.

 

[thestrangequark]

When donkeys fly, I'll think about it; and being in a plane that flies doesn't count. In all fairness, however, I did give him the benefit of the doubt by questioning whether or not God had warned him about what was going to happen; and I was told that God probably did; but the Bible doesn't say.

As far as asking for the girl's permission to give out her name goes, this was like in the late 80's so she might not even have the same last name anymore. She was an attractive girl, and she probably got married. Also, if relating her story meant making believers out of people who say that God's not real, then I don't see how she could mind. If her dad's still working as an evangelist, you can ask him about her. I believe they might have the same first name, except he's got the masculine version that ends with a y.

As far as judging people who say there is no God goes, if I could be the judge of all the atheists, I'd give them an easy break; but it's like I read on a bumper sticker. If you're living like there is no God, you'd better be right.

As far as demons being trapped in Ouija boards goes, they're not really trapped because I've already read that they operate by an idiomatic motor, which means thought guided; but that's how the devil works. He works at us through our thoughts.

Finally, I once experienced God giving me a peace first hand. I remember having trouble sleeping one night and feeling tempted; and I didn't say it out loud; but I said in the name of Jesus, go away from me Satan; and I felt instant peace just like that.
God bless, Jason Irelan

Here ya go, buddy. This should make things easier for you.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Well I mean, it's not like we could actually drive an Angel to dr...

Oh.

Oh the pleasurably wicked things I could do to Castiel, he'd be crying out to his god, that's for sure

 

[Kemaiku]

Oh the pleasurably wicked things I could do to Castiel, he'd be crying out to his god, that's for sure

 

[5billionof5billion]

5 Billion, I don't mean any personal attack here, you know I've attempted to help you on other matters elsewhere. However I'm wondering if you understand that the true issue with incest has nothing to do with religion per se, but the simple fact that said genetic issues and "unhealthy offspring" are not new phenomena?

They have always occured and even the most basic understanding of genetics demonstrates that a scenario with two people being the source of the entire human race is simply a medical impossibility. This isn't because I heard from someone once or my cousin's uncles minister told me, but is simply a logical extension of EXTREMELY well researched biology.

In other words no matter what you, I, your minister, his daughter or anyone else believes, if Adam and Eve had literally existed as per Genesis there simply could be no human race now. It isn't up for debate.

I realise I'm not going to convince you to change your beliefs here but you need to realise that others do believe differently and manage to be decent, honest, moral people. All without the need of some threat of consequences if they "sin" - but simply because they have a desire to do good. They do not deserve the level of atack they are getting.

Arguably neither do you, but you are expecting a large group of star trek fans, people who almost by definition will opt for reason over faith every time to accept some pretty terribly thought out and presented arguments and threats.

I'm not knocking your religion per se (although having had a fundamentalist upbringing myself I realise that you are taught to see the world in black and white with anyone who disagrees with you as the enemy).

I am merely pointing out just how offensive it is to tell people that they should kill themselves to find out the truth and use constant threats about horrific consequences to coerce (not convince) people that they should subscribe to your belief out of fear. Christianity purpotes to be a religion which teaches us to love our neighbour and that simply isn't compatible with the bullying, intimidation and fearmongering which your approach relies on.

The people you are talking to aren't an enemy, they are simply people who have a different set of beliefs. For many, one of those beliefs is the power of logic and absolutely terrible arguments based on "I know someone who...or I heard a growl from a girl at a camp" simply aren't going to wash.

Believe it or not, that really is ok and I have little fear that either you or I will find ourselves in a lake of fire which (feel free to check) is never even mentioned in the bible.

First off, why would it not be possible for us to have descended from Adam and Eve? I don't believe that anyone here on this board should commit suicide to find out the truth. If you're saying that because we have too many ethnic groups, I believe that could be explained with the tower of Babel incident where people tried to build a building that would lead to Heaven, and God confused their languages and scattered them. Apparently He must have changed their physical appearances as well.

That's nice to know you had a fundamentalist upbringing yourself. Do bear in mind however, some people have had a Christian start but didn't turn out too great. One example is the 19th century outlaw Jesse James. His dad was a Baptist minister.
God bless, Jason Irelan

I've had people bother me about my beliefs as well. I went to a Baptist school, and they believe in eternal security even though I can find Scripture that says otherwise, and I'd get bothered by it constantly from other students and even one of the teachers.

 

[auntiehill]

I thought long and hard about the previous post and felt compelled to respond. Then I thought about how long I've been on the BBS without getting a warning.

 

[5billionof5billion]

I posted on a thank you note on the avatar thread on the original board I posted on. I'm sorry I spelled your username wrong.
God bless, Jason Irelan

 

[Spot261]

First off, why would it not be possible for us to have descended from Adam and Eve?

Simple biology, two people simply can't produce a stable gene pool. This isn't a question of belief, it's a staple of genetics and empirically sound.

I don't believe that anyone here on this board should commit suicide to find out the truth.

But what truth? How can you possibly know what they would experience? Because your minister told you? How could he know? The point I am making is that your entire case seems to be "do as God says or face dire consequences I assure you he will inflict, although I've never actually seen it myself". You have to see that isn't very convincing at all and reflects very badly on your God. It isn't a message of love and peace, it is a threat and people who get through life by making threats to get what they want are not decent people (or Gods).

If you're saying that because we have too many ethnic groups, I believe that could be explained with the tower of Babel incident where people tried to build a building that would lead to Heaven, and God confused their languages and scattered them. Apparently He must have changed their physical appearances as well.

I'm going to be honest, I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea from I made any reference to any ethnic groups, you really have lost me there.

That's nice to know you had a fundamentalist upbringing yourself. Do bear in mind however, some people have had a Christian start but didn't turn out too great. One example is the 19th century outlaw Jesse James. His dad was a Baptist minister.

You misunderstand me, I said I had a fundamentalist upbringing, not that I still identify myself as such. On the contrary my own beliefs are quite contrary to the christian church in many ways, in no small part because so very many terrible people have been devoutly religious. I consider myself a highly moral person, but that morality is based on experience and reasoning the world out, not an imposed code.

If the only thing keeping the worst bits of human nature in check is the threat of consequences from a deity whose own track record for cruelty shadows even the very worst tyrants then there is little hope for us is there? If we cannot be decent people without such a threat then surely we aren't worth saving? Likewise what right would a God whose own choices include mass murder, coercion and bullying as a matter of routine have to judge anyone? A god whose omnipotence led to such abominations as the concept of "original sin"?

Anyway, enough of my own beliefs and back to the point, you really don't engage people's best side by stating that they are going to hell for crimes imagined and that you have the way to prevent it.

 

[BillJ]

First off, why would it not be possible for us to have descended from Adam and Eve?

Did the whole biology and genetics thing just "whoosh!" over your head? There isn't enough genetic diversity with Adam & Eve to build a viable human population. That's science. Sorry.

 

[BillJ]

I consider myself a highly moral person, but that morality is based on experience and reasoning the world out, not an imposed code.

As a parent, this is how children should evolve their own moral codes, with some guidance but primarily by reasoning out what is right and wrong.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Star Wars is all the religion children need, throw in some Star Trek once they're ready to give them a respect for critical thinking.

 

[auntiehill]

^Preach it, brother.

Of course, I would add the Gospel of Doctor Who, for a proper spiritual upbringing.

 

[TrickyDickie]

The whole Adam and Eve story was basically STOLEN from other religions anyway. That's the case with so much of Christianity. When their own wasn't good enough to cram down peoples' throats in the beginning, they cut and pasted and twisted and rearranged from everything else to come up with something that would do the job. Manipulate and rule through fear.

 

[Amaris]

The whole Adam and Eve story was basically STOLEN from other religions anyway. That's the case with so much of Christianity. When their own wasn't good enough to cram down peoples' throats in the beginning, they cut and pasted and twisted and rearranged from everything else to come up with something that would do the job. Manipulate and rule through fear.

It's the carrot and the stick approach. I don't blame people for believing it, because many of them are raised up being taught that system, and so after a certain point, you feel it must be true, or why else would your mom/dad/guardian feel it was so important to pass on to you? Of course, when some of these same deeply religious people interact with non-believers (or believers of a different religion), their reaction is extreme because they have to believe all of their effort, all of their obedience leads somewhere. I know that for myself, the sudden revocation of that end goal, the realization that there was nothing and no one there, that life ended permanently at death, was hard at first. It made me angry, because I had lead my life up to that point with the belief that there was something beyond this life, that even if I never accomplished anything great here, I would have an eternity to right those wrongs.

Consider how they feel on the matter: 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 years of belief has to lead to something, doesn't it? I mean, you spend your whole life building toward a goal that disappears right as you approach it is a nightmare for many. I mean, I would love for there to be an afterlife where good hearted people are shown some kind of end game that rewards them for their kindness on earth. I just don't think it is so.

 

[BillJ]

...that life ended permanently at death, was hard at first.

Thing is, even though I think Christianity is a crock, I think there is more to us than what we perceive. I know it sounds wonky. But you can't destroy matter, only change its form. Who knows what is next for us?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I know that for myself, the sudden revocation of that end goal, the realization that there was nothing and no one there, that life ended permanently at death, was hard at first. It made me angry, because I had lead my life up to that point with the belief that there was something beyond this life, that even if I never accomplished anything great here, I would have an eternity to right those wrongs.

Frankly I think it makes life more meaningful to have no afterlife. I was raised around people for whom the idea that there was no afterlife, whether it be heaven or reincarnation or a spiritual plane just didn't compute. All kinds of people, christians and newagers and regular non-religious people who still viewed the afterlife as a fact, albeit one we didn't know too much about. Taking comfort in it does make it easier not to wrestle with one's current life, I mean it's fleeting right? What's going down today, it's just a small part of our eternal existence, lets keep that in perspective! That perspective can change our entire relationship with our life and while I have no wish to sow doubts or take away people's comfort on the matter I know that seeing my life as being finite, there being no grander scheme that will make today seem but a passing moment has changed how I approach my choices in some surprising ways. I like thinking like this. I like taking eternity out of the picture.

I am happily agnostic about an afterlife, more apathy-ostic than anything because it is no longer important to me to exist after I die in any way.