Chain of Command revisited

[Mojochi]

A thought on Picard's involvement, going with the idea that Starfleet doesn't actually HAVE a group to handle this... he was put on the mission just because he was present and he needed to be taken off the ship. Starfleet wanted Jellico to handle the situation. Having Picard remain on the Enterprise would have certainly caused even more issues, so... they needed a body for the ground mission and Picard needed to go somewhere.

Picard's presence on the covert mission is explained more than any of them. It's said he's the only active Starfleet officer experienced with the theta-band carrier wave nonsense, they'd been detecting on Celtris III, that'll be used to deliver the metagenic weapon. There were like 2 others, both out of service.

It's why the Cardies used it as a lure. It's not weak writing imho, if they're intentionally targeting him from intel, with something they figured out only he knew about, & designed a trap for him personally, so Starfleet would have no one else to call up for it, the goal being to grill him over the defense plans for Minos Korva, (where they were planning their incursion)

Him being there was because he's suspiciously the only expert, Crusher because of her medical expertise, which would be handy if bioweapons are in play & Worf for just being good tactically, & that they both are already on hand, under Picard... but why Picard? because he was the target. It was always going to be Picard, whatever the ploy.

Now, why Nechayez couldn't see that it was an obvious trap, that suspiciously targeted one guy in the whole damn fleet, is a good question. I envision two explanations. #1, she's an idiot, who's bloody dumber than Kennelly when it comes to Cardassians... OR the more likely #2, she knew it would be a trap, & sent Picard anyway, knowing he was never coming back, but considered it a necessary evil, on the off chance there WAS a bioweapon in play. Either way, both Picard & Jellico are proven better strategists than her any day of the week.

 

[at Quark's]

Picard's presence on the covert mission is explained more than any of them. It's said he's the only active Starfleet officer experienced with the theta-band carrier wave nonsense, they'd been detecting on Celtris III, that'll be used to deliver the metagenic weapon. There were like 2 others, both out of service.

True, I forgot about that. It was a trap designed to get him, specifically.

Even so, if that theta band carrier wave has any potential for military application, I'd find it very hard to believe that Picard would be the only active member in a massive organization such as Starfleet that had any experience with it (even if it was only in conducting experiments with it), and not even recent experience at that, and if it didn't have any potential, really, it would have been immediately obvious it was a trap.

 

[Mojochi]

True, I forgot about that. It was a trap designed to get him, specifically.

Even so, if that theta band carrier wave has any potential for military application, I'd find it very hard to believe that Picard would be the only active member in a massive organization such as Starfleet that had any experience with it (even if it was only in conducting experiments with it), and not even recent experience at that, and if it didn't have any potential, really, it would have been immediately obvious it was a trap.

It's arguably a stretch, I'll grant you, but it's possible that it was a technology that no one had ever considered for military application. It really was just a subspace carrier wave on a new type of frequency or what-have-you. It's general radiation sciencey type stuff that no one was all that interested in, but it might be plausible for use in this one specific circumstance of it potentially being usable to carry metagenic material for a bioweapon, a bioweapon which also has fallen out of relevance, having been universally condemned.

So, think of it as a tech no one ever thought to use in concert with a weapon, & a weapon no one has been looking into enough anymore to realize this tech (in theory) could potentially be useable with it, which there's no real evidence to prove it even WAS. They never actually find a bioweapon. The whole thing was a bluff. They just had to make it seem believable enough to sufficiently frighten Starfleet into committing a border treaty violation.

This whole thing is Nechayev's fault for being such a dupe... & if I were Picard, I'd never forgive her ass for throwing me to the wolves under pretty shady circumstances, that are clearly targeting me. She knew this was more than likely BS, but because there's an off chance it might not be, she sent him to die

Edit: Also, if you ever actually wanted to think of Nechayev as a badmiral, this is your window, because we later find out during Descent 1 & 2, that she has a particular grudge against Picard for letting Hugh The Borg go free, prior to Chain of Command. Clearly, she doesn't care for Picard after that event in season 5. So, when something came up where she could let him dangle, hanging him out to dry, she does it.

 

[DonIago]

^Doesn't this kind of assume that the orders originated with Nechayev instead of coming from someone even higher up in the command structure?

Based purely on the show (the novels complicate the matter), I don't think Nechayev's at all a badmiral, she's just very forcused on business and not very personable, at least with Picard. We see at least a couple of times where she does soften toward him, especially when she sees that he's trying to improve his relations with her as well. As for Hugh, I don't think that qualifies as "a particular grudge", but rather as something where there's probably a lot of people who disagree with Picard's handling of the situation, and they're not wrong to feel that way. The idea that she intentionally set Picard up, especially based on her feelings about how he handled Hugh, feel like a very fringe theory to me.

 

[Mojochi]

^Doesn't this kind of assume that the orders originated with Nechayev instead of coming from someone even higher up in the command structure?

Based purely on the show (the novels complicate the matter), I don't think Nechayev's at all a badmiral, she's just very forcused on business and not very personable, at least with Picard. We see at least a couple of times where she does soften toward him, especially when she sees that he's trying to improve his relations with her as well. As for Hugh, I don't think that qualifies as "a particular grudge", but rather as something where there's probably a lot of people who disagree with Picard's handling of the situation, and they're not wrong to feel that way. The idea that she intentionally set Picard up, especially based on her feelings about how he handled Hugh, feel like a very fringe theory to me.

I don't necessarily agree with it either. I was just pointing out the suspicious conditions, that could be used if someone wanted to accuse her of ill intentions toward Picard. I'm sure a LOT of people don't like Picard for the Hugh thing, or even the Wolf 359 thing, or a lot of things where he was a boyscout, & made life difficult for people out there because of his morality.

Plus, it wouldn't necessarily have to be a deliberate setup on her part, just a set of conditions that arose naturally, where she doesn't necessarily have the guy's back, to his major detriment. It might just be a circumstance where someone malicious wouldn't advocate for safeguarding a guy they take issue with, & he finds himself in bad situations where he's endangered because of it.

It's also true she might not be top dog on this Celtris III plan, but she sure is taking lead on it hard.

 

[Forbin]

Only three officers (Picard, Worf and Crusher) were involved in the actual mission, though I suppose Jellico could count as a fourth?

There. Are. FOUR. Officers!
Three, sir.

 

[Forbin]

Re: Picard being the only expert - then frelling brief a commando on the subject and send them.

And still being uncomfortably reminded of that last boss of mine by this discussion . We weren't so much resistant to his new ways, as we were surprised his new ways were so stupid. I was a graphic illustrator, with 30-plus years of being such in the company, and that's all I did. So he comes into my cubicle and tells me one of the managers at another entire location in a different state has asked for help because his admin is out, and he has me call up some clerical work in Excel. I say, "This is clerical work." "He smirks and says, "We're part of a team here."
Okay, I'm the team member who draws stuff, and I have no frackin clue how to use Excel. So instead of saying "oh" and finding someone else, he gives me a 10-minute crash course and leaves me to it.
Meanwhile some ad art the Florida office is bugging me for isn't getting done.

 

[at Quark's]

Re: Picard being the only expert - then frelling brief a commando on the subject and send them.

It seems Starfleet is desperately short-staffed when it comes to specialized infiltration units. After all, why send the DS9 senior staff to disguise as Klingons and infiltrate in the Klingon military HQ, no less?

Or send regular TNG or DS9 officers (again: no specialists) to double in infiltrating smuggler gangs occasionally?

 

[Mojochi]

Re: Picard being the only expert - then frelling brief a commando on the subject and send them

I mean sure... realistically, but, possibly there wasn't enough time between discovering the emissions & the negotiations or it's an involved science type thing that might require solid hands-on experience. It's thin, but it ain't nothing lol

Also, if you are in the Nechayev hater camp, maybe she just didn't like Picard & if someone's gotta go get tossed into a meat grinder why not let it be him?

Or send TNG or DS9 agents to double in infiltrating smuggler gangs occasionally?

Am I remembering right that the smuggler infiltration from TNG was in Gambit 1&2, and in that case they were operating of their own free will, off the books so to speak?

 

[at Quark's]

Am I remembering right that the smuggler infiltration from TNG was in Gambit 1&2, and in that case they were operating of their own free will, off the books so to speak?

Don't know, possibly. It has been a long time since I saw the episode myself. Even if they were, though, the odds were higher than just rounding up some smuggling gang.

And I also seem to remember an episode where O'brien tried to infiltrate the Orion Syndicate.

 

[Oddish]

Honestly, the worst problem with this ep for me isn't Jelico (and I'd already had enough of the writers using historical admirals' names), but the ludicrous idea of sending four senior officers on a possibly-suicidal commando mission (especially Bev!), when it would have been more sensible to brief an actual commando squad on the mission

Yeah, really. It's too bad that we only saw the Hazard Team in a couple of video games... the Enterprise definitely could have used a group like that. Even MACO's would have been handy.

Even if Picard had to go, why not have him escorted by trained and heavily armed commandos?

TNG stays pretty consistent with trying to establish that Starfleet isn't military. It's kind of an important part of this episode... a complaint I hear often is "yadda yadda Jellico was a proper military commander" and yeah, maybe he was... which was jarring to the non-military Enterprise

A proper military commander gets his people to maximum combat readiness. Many of Jellico's decisions, while they might have been beneficial over a two or three month timetable, were disastrous in the short term. Had Enterprise had to actually fight when the hastily thrown together Delta Shift was on duty, I doubt that would have worked out well.

I've seen it too... too many times actually. If the reaction is that simplistic, the new leader is a horrible leader.

That or it's a TV show, and doesn't bother with subtlety.

And I also seem to remember an episode where O'brien tried to infiltrate the Orion Syndicate.

Yeah, really. And Sisko took it on himself to engage in geopolitical deception on an interstellar scale, even though he was a shipbuilder and station commander.

 

[fireproof78]

That or it's a TV show, and doesn't bother with subtlety.

Maximum drama.

 

[evilchumlee]

But I have a real problem with the legality of calling Data the Property of Starfleet.

I just saw this part of the thread, wanted to address some of this.

I'm sure I can think of dozens of other reasons calling Data "property" is preposterous.

What possible legal precedent could they be using to justify ruling Data property?

Anything that is not a sentient being can by default be property. I don't really see that as being particularly relevant to the situation. The question was if Data was sentient or not. If he's not sentient, he's an object.

Now for the question of who gets the property rights there is all kind of legal precedent... and in Star Trek it's even deeper as you can examine an additional 300 years, as well as 150+ planets worth. But the immediate one that comes to mind is salvage rights. Data had abandoned and found by Starfleet. That in and of itself could have given Starfleet the salvage rights to Data.

Starfleet had possession of Data and there was no one else to claim it. Given that, and assuming we're going with that Data is deemed non-sentient for the argument, there is a pretty strong case that Starfleet owns Data.

Again for sake of argument and assuming Data is non-sentient, I could see an argument being made that Data could been more akin to animal life than a phaser, and given he is the only one of his kind, given Endangered Species status and special protections. I actually think this would have been a great back up/appeal in an alternate ending to Measure of a Man, where Data is deemed to be non-sentient. In order to save Data from the destructive research of Maddox, it's then argued that Data needs to be protected/preserved rather than torn apart and studied.

I can't recall anything off the top of my head, but it's also possible there are some laws surrounding rare / unique technology that may be used as precedent to prevent Data from being disassembled. Data could be seen as something akin to a historical artifact and receive governmental protections as such.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Anything that is not a sentient being can by default be property. I don't really see that as being particularly relevant to the situation. The question was if Data was sentient or not. If he's not sentient, he's an object.

This is one of my biggest nitpicks with Star Trek in general and TNG in particular (though in it's defence MoaM does try to address the real issue), or perhaps just the fans?

That Data is sentient, is inarguable... he is capable of detecting and reacting to external stimuli. However, this is also true of all animals and at least some plants so doesn't actually address the issue...

Which is whether Data is sapient (able to think and reason as a human does). An alternative generic term might be sophont, but there may be subtleties to that that I haven't been able to dig up.

 

[evilchumlee]

This is one of my biggest nitpicks with Star Trek in general and TNG in particular (though in it's defence MoaM does try to address the real issue), or perhaps just the fans?

I tend to just lump both "Sentient" and "Sapient" under the same term, as that's what Star Trek tends to do.

I can chalk that up to a few hundred years of linguistic drift. "Sapient" seems to be an out-of-favor term by the 23rd century on.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That doesn't really make any sense to me, although to be fair the criteria they use in the episode sort of support your point as they are mainly talking about what we would call sapience so you're not the only one who's confused on that point.

 

[evilchumlee]

That doesn't really make any sense to me, although to be fair the criteria they use in the episode sort of support your point as they are mainly talking about what we would call sapience so you're not the only one who's confused on that point.

Beyond just the episode, the term "sentient" is almost exclusively used in Star Trek as a whole.

Language and meanings of words can and do change over time. For whatever reason, in Federation Standard, "Sentient" can be used interchangeably with "Sapient".

From an out-of-universe perspective, I think this is both accidental and deliberate at the same time. I do think it's partly because someone, somewhere mixed up "Sentient" and "Sapient". However... dropping the term "Sapient" and using "Sentient" for essentially any life form does line up with the general ideals of the Federation. To paraphrase Dr. Gillian Taylor, is ones worth based on the estimation of their intelligence? The Federation values all life... its level of intelligence is largely irrelevant.

They tend to use "Sentient" and add "Self-Aware" as a qualifier of intelligence.

 

[Mojochi]

Now for the question of who gets the property rights there is all kind of legal precedent... and in Star Trek it's even deeper as you can examine an additional 300 years, as well as 150+ planets worth. But the immediate one that comes to mind is salvage rights. Data had abandoned and found by Starfleet. That in and of itself could have given Starfleet the salvage rights to Data.

Starfleet had possession of Data and there was no one else to claim it. Given that, and assuming we're going with that Data is deemed non-sentient for the argument, there is a pretty strong case that Starfleet owns Data.

My issue with salvage rights type claims on Data has always been that they didn't do that when they found him. Data chose later to engage in the standard enlistment process to Starfleet, of his own accord, which is solely how he became in any way connected to them.

There was no "finders keepers" here. They found him, didn't keep him, & then later he joined them. That act of joining & being allowed to join should be all the precedent anyone needs to establish his autonomy. Joining a service institution is a recognition of a free will to do so. He would've had to agree to the same stipulations as any other recruit upon entrance, & be granted the same, such as a right to resign.

The only way I can see getting around that is that Data's recruitment was conducted by some shady individuals, who somehow obscured his enlistment in ways that allowed him to sign himself over while withholding the standard right to leave. Retroactively deciding he has no right to leave, some 20 years after the fact, is just insane. It only makes sense if they lied to him when he joined. Otherwise Maddox & Louvois are moving the goal posts after the fact, & should get a serious legal slap down.

Logically the episode ends when Louvois rules that Data can't resign, & everybody laughs in her face, or at least the story changes direction into being about having to convince Maddox that he'd be better off with Data as an ally, still in the fleet, than everybody losing him. Because that didn't happen, we have to assume someone has been yanking Data's chain since day one, & it's a miracle he got out of being owned.

Edit: You know, Odo's autonomy was actually less of a granted than Data's, when The Bajorans found him & Mora took possession. If Starfleet had done something similar to Data and just took him & sent him to be studied, the salvage rights argument might hold up, but the minute they granted him the right to enlist, that goes out the window. Hell, The Doctor's autonomy is probably the worst standing of them all

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

From an out-of-universe perspective, I think this is both accidental and deliberate at the same time. I do think it's partly because someone, somewhere mixed up "Sentient" and "Sapient". However... dropping the term "Sapient" and using "Sentient" for essentially any life form does line up with the general ideals of the Federation.

But it doesn't.

Because that suggests that according to that then Spot is exactly as "intelligent" and worthy of "human rights" as a Human, Vulcan, Klingon et al.

Which is clearly not the case.

 

[evilchumlee]

My issue with salvage rights type claims on Data has always been that they didn't do that when they found him. Data chose later to engage in the standard enlistment process to Starfleet, of his own accord, which is solely how he became in any way connected to them.

(I'm going to speak from the perspective that Data isn't a sapient being for the sake of argument from here on.)

Right but... an object with no owner can generally be claimed if there are no other claimers. Data couldn't "choose" to join Starfleet, the programming of his computer brain led him to seek out Starfleet.

There was no "finders keepers" here. They found him, didn't keep him, & then later he joined them. That act of joining & being allowed to join should be all the precedent anyone needs to establish his autonomy. Joining a service institution is a recognition of a free will to do so. He would've had to agree to the same stipulations as any other recruit upon entrance, & be granted the same, such as a right to resign.

We don't actually know the specifics of Data's backstory from the point of being discovered to joining Starfleet. Data may be programmed to think he "chose" to join Starfleet Academy, but really it was just a machine copying what it was familiar with... Starfleet found him, the computer imprinted on Starfleet.

He "agreed" to the same stipulations, but would not be bound by them as he is not a person, and has no rights, also due to not being a person. An object has no rights. Your replicator has no right to refuse your request and decide to no longer be a replicator. Data is just a fancy, mobile computer core that was programmed to mimic the behaviors of a person.

The only way I can see getting around that is that Data's recruitment was conducted by some shady individuals, who somehow obscured his enlistment in ways that allowed him to sign himself over while withholding the standard right to leave. Retroactively deciding he has no right to leave, some 20 years after the fact, is just insane. It only makes sense if they lied to him when he joined. Otherwise Maddox & Louvois are moving the goal posts after the fact, & should get a serious legal slap down.

I think there were some well meaning people there who saw Data as a "person" due to his physical appearance, but a computer can't "enlist" in anything. It's easy to anthropomorphize a machine that looks like a human and has been programmed to mimic human behavior, but at the end of the day even a human looking machine is just a machine, and a machine has no rights.

But it doesn't.

Because that suggests that according to that then Spot is exactly as "intelligent" and worthy of "human rights" as a Human, Vulcan, Klingon et al.

Which is clearly not the case.

In this case you might be conflating respect with rights.

Also note I specifically noted that intelligence was irrelevant and not considered. Spot is not "intelligent" nor would he ever be claimed to be. Spot is a living being, and thus does have rights, and should be respected as life.

There would be further rights for intelligent life, which we might call "sapient" in todays terms.

It's all just a semantics issue, and there's no reason 2370's people would use the exact same terminology as 2024 people.