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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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This is on the Axanar FB page:

"Leads by example" is code for "We haven't been sued yet and we're going to act like disciplinarians of Axanar.". I'm sorry. I don't understand Vic Mignonga's angle. Star Trek Continues uses the same intellectual property and has a soundstage and a set which is funded with fan money. Exactly what Axanar has done. I don't understand what rule Mignonga thinks he has followed that he thinks Alec Peters hasn't followed."

What part of "you can't make money off someone else's IP" do you not understand?

There are also some posters claiming STC and New Voyages are "deeper into IP violations" Axanar. SMH
 
Indysolo said:
With so many bots, Alec is now a combination of Garth and Harry Mudd.

Neil
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MikeH92467 said:
This is on the Axanar FB page:

"Leads by example" is code for "We haven't been sued yet and we're going to act like disciplinarians of Axanar.". I'm sorry. I don't understand Vic Mignonga's angle. Star Trek Continues uses the same intellectual property and has a soundstage and a set which is funded with fan money. Exactly what Axanar has done. I don't understand what rule Mignonga thinks he has followed that he thinks Alec Peters hasn't followed."

What part of "you can't make money off someone else's IP" do you not understand?

There are also some posters claiming STC and New Voyages are "deeper into IP violations" Axanar. SMH
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I have no sympathy for the mindless drones who lap up everything Alec & Terry say - if they want to flush away their money & hopes, more power to em. It's been made quite clear what Axanar did both here and elsewhere........
 
^ Keep burning those bridges Alec.
If he can't see the fundamental difference between using donor funds to create a media empire, and the work of traditional fan films, then he is more delusion that the "real" Garth of Izar.
 
MikeH92467 said:
This is on the Axanar FB page:

"Leads by example" is code for "We haven't been sued yet and we're going to act like disciplinarians of Axanar.". I'm sorry. I don't understand Vic Mignonga's angle. Star Trek Continues uses the same intellectual property and has a soundstage and a set which is funded with fan money. Exactly what Axanar has done. I don't understand what rule Mignonga thinks he has followed that he thinks Alec Peters hasn't followed."

What part of "you can't make money off someone else's IP" do you not understand?

There are also some posters claiming STC and New Voyages are "deeper into IP violations" Axanar. SMH
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Actually, I think the reasoning is a bit different, and it goes back to my “playing in someone else’s yard” analogy of a few years back and where Axanar went off the rails when C/P opposed them.

Axanar and Vic are both playing on someone else’s yard, basically to an equal degree. Vic is just being quite clear that he recognizes that fact and, if asked y C/P to “stop playing in my yard and go home”, he will do so without stamping his feet and whining that he has a right to be there - which is exactly what should be done (and exactly what Axanar did not do.)

M
 
Jedi_Master said:
I hear Norman is a big fan.
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mkstewartesq said:
Well, none of us have fool-proof crystal balls here, and C/P have been virtually silent on this matter beyond what is stated in the original complaint (which will be obsolete once they file the expected amended complaint.) So I will admit that your guess as to how things will turn out is as good as mine. But that being said, I don’t see a great likelihood of C/P demanding return of donor money for two reasons:

1. As I stated before - relations between Axanar and its donors is not C/P’s concern. I think that C/P’s goal remains, and has always been, just to shut down Axanar as a “Star Trek” product. This is borne out by their initial complaint - which frankly seemed a bit half-hearted as it was most likely filed with the expectation that AP would fold without a fight. Now that Axanar has put up a fight, C/P may dig in and drop a carload of claims on them - but, again, to get the point across of “we’re serious, don’t mess with C/P”, not to decimate everyone involved for the sheer “wrath of God” joy of it.

2. I think we all overvalue what C/P would be able to recover from a jury if it won every copyright claim at trial - and that has a real bearing on what C/P could demand of Axanar in a settlement. The Copyright Act measure of damages is “plaintiff’s profits attributable to the infringement plus damages actually suffered by defendant.” (More on that second part later) Even though it’s clear that most donations and costs of goods (coffee) sold (“revenue”) are attributable to the infringement (everyone donated because of the ST connection, probably the same for the coffee), the “revenue” is not the same as the “profits attributable to the infringement”. The law specifically permits the defendant to deduct from revenue expenses of production/cost of goods (and other GAAP amounts), along with any revenue amounts that are attributable to factors other than the infringing goods themselves. (17 USC Sec. 504(b) - “In establishing the infringer's profits, the copyright owner is required to present proof only of the infringer's gross revenue, and the infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and ... profit attributable to factors other than the copyrighted work.”

(Simple example - I make counterfeit DVDs of ST movies - it costs me $5 per DVD to make the copies and $1 per copy to ship them, and I charge $8 per copy. My revenue is $8/copy - but the law allows me to deduct my $6 in copying and shipping costs to arrive at the $2 profit I made. Plaintiff gets $2 per copy - the profit attributable to the infringement.)

So while we may “see” revenue (donations) of $1.5 million, C/P is probably not entitled to recover $1.5 million. They are basically entitled to recover whatever is left over after Axanar makes all deductions from revenue permitted by law (such as money spend on production to date, costs of the coffee and packaging, creation of models, and other allocable expenses.) And so what leverage does C/P have to force Axanar to pay back 100% of the donations if Axanar knows C/P would only get a fraction of that from the court if Axanar simply refused to settle?

As to the other possible amounts of recovery :

“Actual damages” - I don’t see any other “actual damages” C/P has suffered - they are pissed at Axnar, but haven’t been hurt by Axanar, other than the cost of attorneys. So I think this adds “zero” to money that would give leverage to force Axanar to give money back to donors.

“Attorneys fees” - the Copyright Act says that fees “may” be awarded, not “must” be awarded, so it is within the discretion of the judge. But C/P would keep any attorneys’ fees awarded, not tell Axanar “nah, don’t pay us, give it back to the donors instead. So I also think this adds “zero” to money that would give leverage to force Axanar to give money back to donors.

“Statutory damages” - a real wildcard, as the court can award as little as $100 per infringed work up to $150,000 per infringed work, or anywhere in between. But I don’t see statutory damages being on the high end of the scale here - the max amount is usually reserved for literal copying of a whole work, not “taking one small piece from this work (a character from one episode), and one piece from this other work (a ship design shown onscreen for 2 minutes out of a 48 minute show). Though the copying across multiple works was immense here in the aggregate, a judge could find the amount copied from any individual work was arguably small on a “per infringed work” basis and award correspondingly low statutory damages. So I don’t think statutory damages is going to “raise the pot” so much higher that C/P suddenly has leverage to say “settle and give $1.5 million back to the donors or you will be liable to us for much more”

And even if C/P could get the max statutory damages - why does anyone think they would tell AP to give it back to the donors rather than keep it themselves?
____

Hey - please know that everything I say here is meant in a “friendly discussion” tone - I’m not trying to “school ya” or prove you wrong, because my crystal ball is no better or worse than yours and time may prove you 100% right and me wrong. But based on my experience with the law and the claims C/P has raised to date, I just can’t personally get behind the theory that C/P is going to do anything that would put much - if any - of the donor’s money back in their hands. Donors need to be realistic about this and start looking into their own rights to get that money back.

M
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"I don't see any other "actual damages""
"Fees "may" be awarded"
"I don't see fees being awarded on the high end of the scale here"

AxaPlant™!!! :whistle:

Welcome to the forum, plant or no ;). Discussion from active, currently practicing IP lawyers is helpful.
 
Titan Designer said:
As I have said no I won't because there has been more than enough "stuff" being flung in all directions in this matter and I really don't think it is mud.
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To me nothing about Axanar is mud except the diverting of raised money to build a business, and the ridiculous defenses (censoring, etc.) thereof. I have high regard for the efforts of creative folk who have pitched in. Just sorry it got derailed by such an egregious manipulation on the business level.
 
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muCephi said:
To me nothing about Axanar is mud except the diverting of raised money to build a business, and the ridiculous defenses (censoring, etc.) thereof. I have high regard for the efforts of creative folk who have pitched in. Just sorry it got derailed by such an obvious manipulation on the business level.
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That's the real issue here. I didn't think "Prelude to Axanar" had merit as serious art, but it was well made and well acted (with one glaring exception). I left that short film with the impression that "Axanar" would be better than initially expected. And honestly, when it comes to fan films, competent craft is impressive in itself.

But to brazenly advertise on your Kickstarter page that you're building a permanent studio with donor money to do other for-profit productions? That was breathtakingly stupid. Even if Alec wasn't a jerk, I'd be hard-pressed to sympathize.

STC and New Voyages have never crossed lines so blatantly. They, too, could be shut down at any time; recognizing that, they've been careful not to do anything to rock the boat with CBS, which has been very generous in accommodating fans' passion projects. Vic's attitude, as expressed in the 1701 article, is exactly the right one.
 
RCAM said:
STC and New Voyages have never crossed lines so blatantly. They, too, could be shut down at any time; recognizing that, they've been careful not to do anything to rock the boat with CBS, which has been very generous in accommodating fans' passion project. Vic's attitude, as expressed in the 1701 article, is exactly the right one.
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If Alec was smart, he would've adopted the same attitude. IMO though, the moment the money really started to rush in, he went over the edge (and now there's no bringing him back).
 
RedForman said:
If Alec was smart, he would've adopted the same attitude. IMO though, the moment the money really started to rush in, he went over the edge (and now there's no bringing him back).
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Let's take a trip down memory lane... to the year 2012...

CBS is the rights holder for Star Trek. And dealing with the top people in CBS, I can tell you they are decent, passionate people who love Star Trek. Already we are at an advantage. They are not trying to screw with fan films. I have had serious discussions with them and they honestly would love to work even more with fan films, but because Paramount owns the movie rights, the situation is very tricky and they simply cannot do anything.

Mallory is the legal person who looks after the fan film community, and while I haven't spoken with her, I have heard nothing but great things about her from Phase II and Secret Voyage. She will tell you what you have to change to fly under the radar and she is very helpful.

I will get contact info for her and chat with her how she might want inquiries to go.

Alec
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Admiral Cain said:
"I don't see any other "actual damages""
"Fees "may" be awarded"
"I don't see fees being awarded on the high end of the scale here"

AxaPlant™!!! :whistle:

Welcome to the forum, plant or no ;). Discussion from active, currently practicing IP lawyers is helpful.
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I'm sorry, why are you attacking Mike?
 
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