CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

[jespah]

The legal eagles here might be better aware, but if the studios has nothing to do with the production, other than the fact its being filmed there, are we looking at a Chinese Wall situation?

I don't think there is enough separation, but this would be up to the triers of fact (a jury) and law (the judge) to decide. The studio certainly seems to be related to fundraising related to the unauthorized use of another's IP.

Trek --> KS and IGG funds --> studio.

I believe that is how it will be seen.

 

[Earthrise]

So how much insulation and/or benefit would that provide them, legally, in the CBS/P vs. AP if they have managed to build a wall of separation between the two. They're still using CBS/P IP for the film, and Prelude, but what they raised in the second KS, regardless of how they spend it, seems to somewhat separate out onto its own thing.

The second KS, effectively, wasn't "hey, we're making a fan film, help fund it," but rather "hey, fund our desire to build a studio, which, BTW, can be used to make a fan film."

I am not a lawyer, but I think little. They're still using CBS/Paramount IP (such as the Star Trek name) as part of the fundraiser and they still indicate the intent to go ahead and film Axanar.

so there was the first Kickstarter, and the indiegogo, and in between was this one:
https://web.archive.org/web/2015080...ojects/194429923/star-trek-axanar/description

The Axanar blog does refer to the above 638k kickstarter as 'the funding for the studio'
http://www.axanarproductions.com/the-next-crowdfunding-campaign-is-coming/
but if you read the kickstarter link above, it says "This Kickstarter is for the full-length feature Axanar. "

welcome any clarification. was there another fundraiser just for the studio that only named the studio and didn't speak of Trek as part of the pitch?

This was the fundraiser for the studio. In the paragraph following the sentence you quoted they said that they didn't anticipate raising all of the funds they needed at once so the first Kickstarter was for "the sound stage and set construction." It's very clear, I know. /sarcasm

 

[stampersand]

As I read it, they stated very definitively that the first Kickstarter was only for studio and set costs. They implied that anything raised above 225,000 would be put towards the film, but the wording was such that there was no guarantee they would commit to it. Whether this was intentional or not, I don't think anyone can say.

That would seem to put the arguments about Alec paying himself, or building a for-profit studio off the table / irrelevant in the CBS/P lawsuit.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I don't think there is enough separation, but this would be up to the triers of fact (a jury) and law (the judge) to decide. The studio certainly seems to be related to fundraising related to the unauthorized use of another's IP.

Trek --> KS and IGG funds --> studio.

I believe that is how it will be seen.

I see... It was just something I was thinking about

 

[stampersand]

I don't think there is enough separation, but this would be up to the triers of fact (a jury) and law (the judge) to decide. The studio certainly seems to be related to fundraising related to the unauthorized use of another's IP.

Trek --> KS and IGG funds --> studio.

I believe that is how it will be seen.

Well, the IGG funds, as far as I know, are only going toward the filming (which uses CBS/P IP), not to the studio.

 

[stampersand]

I guess I am confused by this.

The first kickstarter funded the studio? Then at the time the first Kickstarter was presented, it only spoke about creating a generic studio for SF productions, and didn't mention Trek at all? The "first" Kickstarter (of 3?) wasn't for Prelude?

Or the second Kickstarter retroactively declared the first Kickstarter to be for the studio, in contradiction to what the first claimed to be? What difference would that make?

Or the Axanar blog link I cited above declared the second kickstarter for the studio, and the indiegogo to be for Axanar?

Or something else?

I think he meant the first Kickstarter after Prelude (ie, the second Kickstarter). The second Kickstarter seems to be set up only to build a studio.

 

[Albinator]

Well you should have done a better blooming job then - that ship was horrid

I rather like the Titan. I think it's fairly consistent with the post TNG era ships, so i'm not sure what can be deemed "horrid" (unlike Voyager, where the aesthetic was a fair bit of a departure from the newer Federation ships established on TNG and DS9).

If you aren't fond of it, that's cool, but "horrid" is hyperbole.

 

[Titan Designer]

The non-hero ships do seem to be derivative of the styling of nuTrek. But the Ares looks straight up TOS (and I rather like it, for what it's worth).

Thanks, I wanted it to feel more prime universe than new universe Trek

 

[muCephi]

I am not a lawyer, but I think little. They're still using CBS/Paramount IP (such as the Star Trek name) as part of the fundraiser and they still indicate the intent to go ahead and film Axanar.



This was the fundraiser for the studio. In the paragraph following the sentence you quoted they said that they didn't anticipate raising all of the funds they needed at once so the first Kickstarter was for "the sound stage and set construction." It's very clear, I know. /sarcasm

ok, I see, the second kickstarter may have started out with base and stretch goals and they said the base was for set and soundstage. But it is still in the context of "a set and soundstage for Axanar", and driven by all the CBS IP.

I don't really see how this makes a separation of permanent assets acquired for Ares Studio, and the pitching of Trek IP to raise that money.

 

[Harcourt F. Mudd]

stuff

Yeah I just had a PM exchange with HMS and he said he'd drop the subject so let's just move on.

That would seem to put the arguments about Alec paying himself, or building a for-profit studio off the table / irrelevant in the CBS/P lawsuit.

I can't imagine that fund-raising for all the materials necessary to make a fan film is not the same as fund-raising for a fan film.

 

[Albinator]

The second Kickstarter seems to be set up only to build a studio.

Except that the name of the Kickstarter was "Star Trek: Axanar." If it was truly to help fund a new studio it should have been "Ares Studio" (or whatever) and not mentioned Star Trek at all. As everyone has said-- he was trading off Trek material to raise money for his studio. So even if the intent and messaging was "help me fund a new studio" he plastered Trek all over it, and talked about how his first movie would be Trek, and all the rewards were Trek related.

 

[muCephi]

Except that the name of the Kickstarter was "Star Trek: Axanar." If it was truly to help fund a new studio it should have been "Ares Studio" (or whatever) and not mentioned Star Trek at all. As everyone has said-- he was trading off Trek material to raise money for his studio. So even if the intent and messaging was "help me fund a new studio" he plastered Trek all over it, and talked about how his first movie would be Trek, and all the rewards were Trek related.

not only that, the "for sets and stage" fundraiser plainly says "This Kickstarter is for the full-length feature Axanar. " There is NO ambiguity in this statement.

 

[Earthrise]

I guess I am confused by this.

The first kickstarter funded the studio? Then at the time the first Kickstarter was presented, it only spoke about creating a generic studio for SF productions, and didn't mention Trek at all? The "first" Kickstarter (of 3?) wasn't for Prelude?

Or the second Kickstarter retroactively declared the first Kickstarter to be for the studio, in contradiction to what the first claimed to be? What difference would that make?

Or the Axanar blog link I cited above declared the second kickstarter for the studio, and the indiegogo to be for Axanar?

Or something else?

There were three crowdfunding campaigns, one for "Prelude to Axanar" and two for "Axanar." The first ("Prelude") was a Kickstarter. The second (first "Axanar") was a Kickstarter. The third (second "Axanar") was a Indiegogo.

At the time this second Kickstarter (the first for "Axanar") went live, it did not speak only about creating a generic sci-fi studio. The page was covered (and is still covered) with Trek references. The page heading reads "Star Trek: Axanar." The promo video is an excerpt of "Prelude," featuring Trek-style ships, uniforms, and species. The next line down describes "Axanar" as "the story of Garth of Izar & the Battle of Axanar, a pivotal event in the history of the Federation." Most damning is the beginning of the project description proper. It reads: "Axanar is the independent Star Trek film which proves that a feature-quality Star Trek film can be made on a small budget."

It isn't until you dig through the description a bit that you get the information regarding the true purpose of the Kickstarter. If you don't read very carefully, you'll get the impression that this campaign was for the project from set construction to production. It's only by careful reading that you see that Axanar Productions is telling the truth when they say the Kickstarter was only for the studio. They buried that line among all of the implications saying otherwise.

That would seem to put the arguments about Alec paying himself, or building a for-profit studio off the table / irrelevant in the CBS/P lawsuit.

I don't think so because the Trek elements on the page are overwhelming. If anything, it would be worse for them because the page makes it clear that "Ares Studios" (which was unnamed at the time) was always supposed to be more than just a warehouse where they kept their sets.

Edit to add:

ok, I see, the second kickstarter may have started out with base and stretch goals and they said the base was for set and soundstage. But it is still in the context of "a set and soundstage for Axanar", and driven by all the CBS IP.

I don't really see how this makes a separation of permanent assets acquired for Ares Studio, and the pitching of Trek IP to raise that money.

Exactly. The campaign was to fund at least a set and soundstage for Axanar that could then be used for other, commercial projects.

I think that, far from separating Ares Studio from using Trek to fund-raise, the campaign can very easily be interpreted as an intent to build a commercial business off of CBS/Paramount IP.

 

[steam235]

Thanks, I wanted it to feel more prime universe than new universe Trek

and it's fair to say that in some of your first drawings it was more of a prime/tos ship with a seperate nav dish and spike, and it was notes from others that made the more movie era deflector.

 

[Franklin]

Since Simon & Schuster is a division of CBS, Titan is CBS IP. Ares being derivative of Titan doesn't help AP much. Sorry.

Did the contest say the winning design became property of Simon and Schuster?

Either way, I just found and read the announcement of design competition winner. It says the designer had the highest combined scores in the "categories of originality, execution, consistency with U.S.S. Titan concept notes, and consistency with Star Trek's established Starfleet style [emphasis mine]." In other words, the goal of the contest was to design ship that looked new but was also definitely identifiable as a "Star Trek" starship of Starfleet. For the designer of the Areas to say the Ares is something of a mash-up between the Titan and the Centaur, a ship seen on DS9, makes it hard to call it original and not simply a design derivative of CBS IP (unless the Titan design is still the IP of the Ares designer, then maybe things are more problematic).

 

[muCephi]

It isn't until you dig through the description a bit that you get the information regarding the true purpose of the Kickstarter. If you don't read very carefully, you'll get the impression that this campaign was for the project from set construction to production. It's only by careful reading that you see that Axanar Productions is telling the truth when they say the Kickstarter was only for the studio. They buried that line among all of the implications saying otherwise.

Sorry to come back to it but I guess I am not seeing the part where they are compartmentalizing this second fundraiser's first goal as "only for the studio". They say they are building a soundstage and sets, but within a paragraph that says it is for Axanar, so anyone reading it would complete that sentence with "...for the feature Axanar", not "...partly for Axanar and partly for equipment and sets that will become the permanent property of a for-profit company". Am I missing something? Most of the for profit stuff I have seen has come out of blogs, podcasts, etc.

This Kickstarter is for the full-length feature Axanar. Unlike the short film, which we shot in two days and cost $80,000, the 90-minute Axanar feature will take about 3 weeks and cost roughly between $650,000 and $ 750,000 (The budget is in process based on learnings from thePrelude to Axanar budget, so I would expect the budget to climb). So we are breaking up our costs into discreet sections which should allow us to reach significant milestones, as we don't expect to raise the full amount all at once. This first Kickstarter will be for the sound stage and set construction. Anything over what we need for that will be applied to the feature production costs. Full details are below.​

 

[BillJ]

This Kickstarter is for the full-length feature Axanar. Unlike the short film, which we shot in two days and cost $80,000, the 90-minute Axanar feature will take about 3 weeks and cost roughly between $650,000 and $ 750,000 (The budget is in process based on learnings from thePrelude to Axanar budget, so I would expect the budget to climb). So we are breaking up our costs into discreet sections which should allow us to reach significant milestones, as we don't expect to raise the full amount all at once. This first Kickstarter will be for the sound stage and set construction. Anything over what we need for that will be applied to the feature production costs. Full details are below.

Which I don't understand? Wouldn't sound stage and set construction be part of the production cost? Maybe one of our experts can chime in?

 

[Albinator]

Did the contest say the winning design became property of Simon and Schuster?

Even if it did, anything developed by S&S would become property of CBS as per license agreements.

 

[ThankYouGeneR]

I am not here to argue. I am a fan myself that got pulled into this, and I made no money off of it. I will not get into it like some on the production. I am trying to be far and for the most part keep my mouth shut. I love Trek and personally wish we all could get along.

I am very pleased to meet you. In TBBS I am smaller than the smallest potatoes but for what it's worth to you I am pleased to see you're back, for though I don't know you I have been back-peddling the threads trying to understand this thing, so I've read you from your first post saying "I can finally tell you". I find it admirable, this stepping back into the waters here that are sometimes charged with our emotions while we watch this thing play out with everything it is going to eventually mean within our fandom. Doing what trek people do; speculate, opine on every small detail we hear, read, question, believe, promote. You remember what fandom is? Passionate, opinions. So I suspect at times that you may feel you are being challenged. This is a time of high emotion. Just breathe through it. I love Trek too. It is its psychology and ethics that are my first joy, so I like you said want us to all get along. Good luck! It may be a bumpy ride for awhile.

 

[Earthrise]

Sorry to come back to it but I guess I am not seeing the part where they are compartmentalizing this second fundraiser's first goal as "only for the studio". They say they are building a soundstage and sets, but within a paragraph that says it is for Axanar, so anyone reading it would complete that sentence with "...for the feature Axanar", not "...partly for Axanar and partly for equipment and sets that will become the permanent property of a for-profit company". Am I missing something? Most of the for profit stuff I have seen has come out of blogs, podcasts, etc.

This Kickstarter is for the full-length feature Axanar. Unlike the short film, which we shot in two days and cost $80,000, the 90-minute Axanar feature will take about 3 weeks and cost roughly between $650,000 and $ 750,000 (The budget is in process based on learnings from thePrelude to Axanar budget, so I would expect the budget to climb). So we are breaking up our costs into discreet sections which should allow us to reach significant milestones, as we don't expect to raise the full amount all at once. This first Kickstarter will be for the sound stage and set construction. Anything over what we need for that will be applied to the feature production costs. Full details are below.​

Exactly. If you stopped reading at that paragraph, you would assume the sound stage and set were only going to be used for Axanar, which is reasonable. That's why you would need to scroll down to the sound stage section. Here's a quote (again from the 31 July 2014 capture):

SOUND STAGE - $125,000

We have located and secured a 16,000 sf warehouse in Valencia, CA, just north of LA, that we are signing a 2-year lease on. This space is beautiful and has 4,000 sf of office space and a huge 12,000 sf warehouse. This will be the permanent home of Axanar Productions and allow us to do more than just Axanar, from other adventures in the Star Trek universe and beyond. David Gerrold (author of "The Trouble with Tribbles") is already lined up to shoot his sci-fi series "Running Dark" here.

First year's rent is $ 78,000, which we will pay up front. This is a great deal. This space should rent for three times this much. But they want movie production in these units.

Converting this space to be a sound stage will cost approximately $50,000. This includes dropping a grid system for lights and baffling, putting in industrial power and building a wall to separate the space from the rest of the warehouse.

Sci-Fi Film School - After the sets our built, we will be holding a Sci-Fi film school. Learn all about film making from our veteran industry staff including David Gerrold (writing), Richard Hatch and Gary Graham (acting), Robert Burnett (Editing/Directing), Christian Gossett (writing/directing) and Academy Award winner Kevin Haney and Star Trek veteran Brad Look (make-up). Donors will get first shot at the initial film school session.

As far back as that first Axanar Kickstarter, they made it clear that the studio was going to be used for commercial ventures after Axanar was completed.