CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar
- Thread starter Richard Baker
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Back when I joined TBBS I also had to be taught this particular etiquette. In time it will become natural.
Email that baby to CBS Legal.
It is an interesting episode in that respect.
The strongest point I took away from this one though, is that the fans who are donors have no issue with the finances. It is only those people who are not donors who are complaining.
But, see, I 'am' a donor. I'm the donor who was there with you in the beginning reading your FAQ that told us you were making a film called Star Trek Axanar, to make something so spectacular that it serves as a resume and calling card for your work in the industry. There was no mention of Prelude, there was no mention of Ares. And in that FAQ you told me to please understand that everyone is working for free. You told us here in TBBS that you were making a 75 minute film. Your FAQ said you had committed 50k. You also said you were going to film on the sets in New York. I believed deeply in what you told me. I jumped to donate to you. I spread to my friends the news about donating to you and we all did that March.
I 'am' a donor. I donated to Star Trek Axanar, which we funded so well to give you the funds to make it. Then it was decided to not make it in New York, it was decided not to make it in Victorville, and I quote you in your podcast now where you explain your move to Hollywood's 30 Mile Zone: "And then we raised $650,000, and we're like Oh".
And the plan evolved. More fundraisers were held. Over a million raised. 22k was spent on perks for donors. You now have a studio that was built and set up as an S Corp for-profit business Company. You now have Ares Digital for a streaming service and the receiving of payments, with a soon to be finished app. There is an Axanar Vlog and an Axanar Podcast, there are trips to film festival & conventions, small movie house rentals.
We have a wonderful 20 minute introduction Axanar, plus a 3 minute Vulcan scene.
And now there will be more fundraisers to fund the four SAG-AFTA modified low-budget films now comprising Axanar.
Your words explaining the whole thing sound like this all makes sense to you.
But, see, I 'am' a donor... and I am increasingly having more issues with this. Reading the budget choices is giving me more and more issues with the finances.
I'm finding donors I brought in to donate to make this 75 minute all volunteer film are increasingly having more issues with the finances. And it seems we are not unique, this being donors who are increasingly finding more issues with the finances.
You are incorrect when you tell the world in your podcast, on your website and elsewhere, you are incorrect when you tell the world that donors have no issues with the finances, that it is only those people who are not donors who are complaining.
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Oh, don't worry, we have it all organized, we promise! Each segment will be labeled with a letter so we can tell which we need to do, and when. They are as follows:
S - Sell, sell, sell! This is where we get the money! Oh, and produce a teaser or two to aid this process.
C - Continue making promises while the money rolls in. We'll keep them, we promise! Change the stated goals as needed to bleed more money from consumers.
A - Abscond. With the money, of course.
M - Make sure nobody can find us to ask what happened.
Unfortunately, CBS and Paramount are now threatening our grand plan! Quick, we need your help! Donate to our legal fund! If you donate at least $50 USD, we'll send you this nifty Alec "Lord Garth" Peters plushie!
There was once an old adage about never picking a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel. I'm guessing there's a corollary for the Internet age, but I can't seem to think of one offhand...
And it's doners like you that I feel the worst for......I came close to giving more than once and I am so relieved that something inside me wouldn't let me. I wouldn't have nearly the problem with them if they had delivered the original film before expanding the goals of the project, but as it stands now it just seems like a mean, dirty, bait and switch that took advantage of trusting Trek fans. Even sadder that many of them are so blind to what is going on that they will just blame CBS when the film is never made and not the mis-management that actually caused it. By posting all spending I am really quite shocked so many of them are still turning a blind eye to where the money is going.........
Amen.
This is why I get so snarky over the whole thing. I'm in the same boat as you: came close to donating, but couldn't get over the weirdness surrounding Peters. It was in constant competition with the recognizable talent involved, but the sketchiness still won out, so I never donated.
It can only end badly for the loyal fans, and that is the true tragedy.
Unless Peters really does have a useful ace up his sleeve, but at the moment I just can't see how that would even be possible...
I wouldn't waist my time, if anything said on the podcasts are at all interesting the CBS then someone on their legal team will have listened through, making notes and most likely recording anything they want to use in court (be it a transcript or clip... I don't know whether they allow audio to be used as evidence).Email that baby to CBS Legal.
If a foundation is properly laid, e. g.
- "Mr. Peters, is this your voice on this audio file?"
- "Yes."
- "Has this file been tampered with or edited in any way?"
- "Only to add background music and clip the last two minutes of dead air."
- "Has the audio been enhanced in any other fashion?"
- "No."
- "Move to enter audio clip as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 13, Your Honor."
- "Are there objections from defense?"
- "No."
- "So entered. Bailiff, please so mark this article as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 13."
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I guess it's true that there's no friendly place on the internet. Soapboxing is one thing, but a policy where a person has to wait to post a second or third thought? Sorry: ridiculous.
@Ablinator: Why don't you try to finish your thoughts first and post them then? Then you don't have add post after post. Makes a more interesting read for the rest as well.
And there is a section for suggestions, where you can suggest that people should have an edit button right from the start (which I personally think too - esp. in an international forum with non native speakers).
Here complaints about the edit button don't make people too happy.
And there is a section for suggestions, where you can suggest that people should have an edit button right from the start (which I personally think too - esp. in an international forum with non native speakers).
Here complaints about the edit button don't make people too happy.
The board guidelines don't say you can't post twice in a row, it just discourages doing more than that. I don't think it's that onerous. One doesn't have to push Post Reply immediately. Basically a lot of the feature limitations for newcomers are designed to discourage burner accounts, advertising and general spam. Prove you're for real (it doesn't take that many posts) and then a lot of the restrictions get removed.
Not all features are available at first to new members, or that used to be the case on the old system.Do you not see this when you view your posts?
I've been following this thread since it started, as a three time backer of Axanar (Prelude, Kickstarter and Indiegogo). I still go back and rewatch Prelude constantly, and the soundtrack is frequently playing on my iPhone. For me its a great piece of fan film/independant production/whatever you want to call it. I find the setup, and the examination of the Four Years War era an enticing story.
So as a backer, and someone like the backer previously who also recommend the project to friends, I find the whole thing quite sad more than anything else. My money is likely up in smoke, and I accept that as a potential pitfall of backing these projects. As others have said, fan films of any type exist at the whim of the rights holders. Whether you're backing Axanar, New Voyages, Continues or any of the other projects I've thrown a few quid at, all it takes is the nod from CBS and its gone. I may not like it, but I accept that.
The damning thing here is the lack of focus. While I'm still not inclined to believe any malicious intent, it is easy to see how Peters and co have lost track of the scope of the project. As the money rolled in, they let the scope grow out of control and never seem to have thought twice about it. Even when the Indiegogo failed to meet their goals, and showed the bubble was starting to burst, Alec was still on the podcast saying they were discussing options. I note that it was Rob who was sensible enough to push they make as much as they could of the film with the money available. Maybe I'm being too generous, but I still see Alec as someone who thinks he knows what he's doing, but who is really out of his depth, rather than someone who's sitting dreaming up ways to con donors out of their money. I don't really know the guy.
The Ares studio debacle shows the lack of business sense to my mind. While they're touting trying to drum up business, its obvious that starting that business purely on donor contributions isn't showing any sort of proper long term planning. When they started talking about an ongoing patreon fund for the studio I was shaking my head, however was still hopeful of getting the film before Ares Studio fell through. I wonder if this is part of the problem. Alec likes to play on his business credentials with Propworx etc. It seems like he lost sight of the fan film once the potential to run Ares Studio as a business came into play.
To be honest, as a backer, I'm still not really upset with the studio being setup. I think its still something you can justify. I read somewhere (so it must be true ;-) ) that letting and setting up a studio space can be cheaper than renting an existing one, when you're looking at a project that's going to take an extended period of time. So I was ok with my money going there. I think when you're talking about 7k phone expenses, new carpets etc though, that's a problem. By all means, be transparent that you're using the donor money to setup a studio. But that money pays for the rent on the building to cover the shoot, the set construction and costs associated with actually making the film. Renovating offices, new carpets etc are something you can focus on once you've got proper funding and projects in place.
I remember mentioning to a friend who I recommended Axanar to that I felt they were getting caught up in their own success, with all the conventions etc. Those things are easy to justify if they're bringing in money for the project versus the money spent going to them, via "donations" made at the con. And as long as the project continues apace while they're going on. Sadly we can't really comment on the financial side, as all we can see are the expenditures on hotels etc, and not any money that came in. A case of where their transparency isn't there, but it would perhaps resolve a complaint if it was. As it is, it does look like they were spending money enjoying the fame, rather than making the movie. Also the fact that sets etc are taking so long to complete seems hard to justify. Why weren't painting and monitor tests going on while the construction was being done for example? Especially when you want to get the film made and out of the way to free up the studio for other projects (for-profit or non-profit). I'm far from an expert on any of this, so possibly there's good reasons. But from the outsider perspective looking in, even I could see the timeline proposed in their annual report wasn't likely to happen.
In retrospect its no surprise the hammer has fallen, and the incident with Tony Todd is particularly revealing. To have the big name drop out of the project and not bother telling anyone until the actor himself mentions it in a twitter exchange months later doesn't bode well for good feeling with the project. Can we only assume they kept it quiet incase it affected the ongoing Indiegogo fund? Because that's how it looks.
Sorry that was so long and rambling, but I wanted to chuck my tuppence into the conversation as a backer who was fully behind the project. I'd still love to see the film some day as well, even if it was made for a fraction of the budget using existing TOS sets or whatever. But the truth is that its not likely. CBS is clearly going to take the whole thing apart, and no one will want to touch the Axanar name after they do.
As an aside, I do wonder what'll happen with Heroes, the short vignette they filmed with New Voyages. From FB, it still seems to be getting targeted for release, and as a backer I'd love to see it, if only so we get something other than the Vulcan scene. But I have to wonder how happy the New Voyages people would be about it getting released while the threat of the lawsuit looms. I imagine they'd rather it didn't.
So as a backer, and someone like the backer previously who also recommend the project to friends, I find the whole thing quite sad more than anything else. My money is likely up in smoke, and I accept that as a potential pitfall of backing these projects. As others have said, fan films of any type exist at the whim of the rights holders. Whether you're backing Axanar, New Voyages, Continues or any of the other projects I've thrown a few quid at, all it takes is the nod from CBS and its gone. I may not like it, but I accept that.
The damning thing here is the lack of focus. While I'm still not inclined to believe any malicious intent, it is easy to see how Peters and co have lost track of the scope of the project. As the money rolled in, they let the scope grow out of control and never seem to have thought twice about it. Even when the Indiegogo failed to meet their goals, and showed the bubble was starting to burst, Alec was still on the podcast saying they were discussing options. I note that it was Rob who was sensible enough to push they make as much as they could of the film with the money available. Maybe I'm being too generous, but I still see Alec as someone who thinks he knows what he's doing, but who is really out of his depth, rather than someone who's sitting dreaming up ways to con donors out of their money. I don't really know the guy.
The Ares studio debacle shows the lack of business sense to my mind. While they're touting trying to drum up business, its obvious that starting that business purely on donor contributions isn't showing any sort of proper long term planning. When they started talking about an ongoing patreon fund for the studio I was shaking my head, however was still hopeful of getting the film before Ares Studio fell through. I wonder if this is part of the problem. Alec likes to play on his business credentials with Propworx etc. It seems like he lost sight of the fan film once the potential to run Ares Studio as a business came into play.
To be honest, as a backer, I'm still not really upset with the studio being setup. I think its still something you can justify. I read somewhere (so it must be true ;-) ) that letting and setting up a studio space can be cheaper than renting an existing one, when you're looking at a project that's going to take an extended period of time. So I was ok with my money going there. I think when you're talking about 7k phone expenses, new carpets etc though, that's a problem. By all means, be transparent that you're using the donor money to setup a studio. But that money pays for the rent on the building to cover the shoot, the set construction and costs associated with actually making the film. Renovating offices, new carpets etc are something you can focus on once you've got proper funding and projects in place.
I remember mentioning to a friend who I recommended Axanar to that I felt they were getting caught up in their own success, with all the conventions etc. Those things are easy to justify if they're bringing in money for the project versus the money spent going to them, via "donations" made at the con. And as long as the project continues apace while they're going on. Sadly we can't really comment on the financial side, as all we can see are the expenditures on hotels etc, and not any money that came in. A case of where their transparency isn't there, but it would perhaps resolve a complaint if it was. As it is, it does look like they were spending money enjoying the fame, rather than making the movie. Also the fact that sets etc are taking so long to complete seems hard to justify. Why weren't painting and monitor tests going on while the construction was being done for example? Especially when you want to get the film made and out of the way to free up the studio for other projects (for-profit or non-profit). I'm far from an expert on any of this, so possibly there's good reasons. But from the outsider perspective looking in, even I could see the timeline proposed in their annual report wasn't likely to happen.
In retrospect its no surprise the hammer has fallen, and the incident with Tony Todd is particularly revealing. To have the big name drop out of the project and not bother telling anyone until the actor himself mentions it in a twitter exchange months later doesn't bode well for good feeling with the project. Can we only assume they kept it quiet incase it affected the ongoing Indiegogo fund? Because that's how it looks.
Sorry that was so long and rambling, but I wanted to chuck my tuppence into the conversation as a backer who was fully behind the project. I'd still love to see the film some day as well, even if it was made for a fraction of the budget using existing TOS sets or whatever. But the truth is that its not likely. CBS is clearly going to take the whole thing apart, and no one will want to touch the Axanar name after they do.
As an aside, I do wonder what'll happen with Heroes, the short vignette they filmed with New Voyages. From FB, it still seems to be getting targeted for release, and as a backer I'd love to see it, if only so we get something other than the Vulcan scene. But I have to wonder how happy the New Voyages people would be about it getting released while the threat of the lawsuit looms. I imagine they'd rather it didn't.
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