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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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lol. That's some sound legal thinking.
It's not legal thinking at all. I was simply arguing that they had implied permission from a layperson's point of view. We're either talking in a legal context (where stealing is most certainly not copyright infringement) or we're talking in a general context (where copyright infringement can only be considered stealing with the help of some creative interpretation of the definition of the word).
True. But, I'm not going to not call it stealing.
And that's what makes you a troll.
1. So, then, some fan films might fall into criminality for theft? Stealing?
If they go to Home Depot and shoplift some luan panels for the set, sure.

On a more serious note, yes, a fan film producer could be involved in criminal behavior (though not a felony) if they sold copies of their fan film for a profit. (Axanar may actually qualify, now that I think about it. Weren't they going to give out Blu-rays or something?)
2. Again, I never said it was criminal.
There's no cause to use a the word "stealing" at all unless you meant to communicate that it's equivalent to taking physical property, because that's how a layperson perceives the word. It's not like you don't know how to spell "copyright infringement", which is both indisputable and more specific.
1. I don't think using the word stealing to mean "taking something that doesn't belong to you" as a overly broad definition. It's what the word means.
One of the definitions of "take" is to "lay hold of (something) with one's hands; reach for and hold". One cannot physically take hold of a copyright. You're assuming a specific definition of the word "take" to suit your own ends.
2. Your poem about Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a pretty bad example. And I wouldn't call it theft. The poem is about another work--which would fall into fair use, AND, it's not using IP to recreate an episode of Buffy (because it's a poem) AND no one would mistake it for an episode of Buffy (because it's a poem.)
First of all, I don't think NOT mistaking your content for official IP is actually a defense under copyright law. (You might be thinking trademark.) Second, you can't know if it falls under fair use without knowing more about the poem. There's nothing in copyright law that says poems can't be legally considered derivative works. If the poem mentions Buffy by name, there may also be a trademark issue.

This is all academic, because you wouldn't have made the same defense if I'd said "short story".
Studios will not just give out licenses for people to make fan films. Studios will not sell licenses for people to make fan films. It will not happen.
We'll see. Plenty of author already release novels under Creative Commons and other licenses, and as someone already mentioned, there's Kindle Worlds.
To wit: formal, published statements regarding a specific matter carry more weight than an 'informal' interview, podcast, editorial, oped etc in court.
I'm fine with that, so long as that's the standard by which my comments about the guidelines are judged, which hasn't been the case in the past.
 
I'm fine with that, so long as that's the standard by which my comments about the guidelines are judged, which hasn't been the case in the past.
I'd note that if such a lawsuit occurred, the judge would probably weigh the guidelines as well as the various discussions and comments made by the company's representatives. Just that the explicit statements would be the baseline.
It's sometimes hard to parse your remarks, but if I've read too much into them I apologize.
 
I won't lie, I mainly posted this here hoping @Maurice would find the time to take a look at it. He's been pretty critical of even the best-regarded fan films and I'd love to get a hot take on how much of a hot mess this is. :p
I read an earlier draft and it was a poorly plotted, masturbatory fantasy about a Gary Stu who everyone thought was da shit, with the final fifth a Starfleet Battles game converted to a teleplay. It had nothing to say about war except pew pew pew.

And those were its good points.
 
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And that's what makes you a troll.

In a thread about copyright infringement, you think me using the word stealing is trolling?
If you believe that, you are more than welcome to report me. As one should do with trolls.

There's no cause to use a the word "stealing" at all unless you meant to communicate that it's equivalent to taking physical property, because that's how a layperson perceives the word. It's not like you don't know how to spell "copyright infringement", which is both indisputable and more specific.

I don't care how a layperson perceives a word. Maybe if the layperson understood the context, they just might agree that the word stealing is appropriate.

If you had an idea for a novel and I decided to write it, what would you call me? A copyright infringer? Hint: no, because you can't copyright ideas.

First of all, I don't think NOT mistaking your content for official IP is actually a defense under copyright law. (You might be thinking trademark.) Second, you can't know if it falls under fair use without knowing more about the poem. There's nothing in copyright law that says poems can't be legally considered derivative works. If the poem mentions Buffy by name, there may also be a trademark issue.

Not mistaking your content for that of the original IP holder would be a part of a Fair Use Defense. That's why reviewers can use clips because no one in their right mind would mistake a review of Lord of the Rings for Lord of the Rings itself.

But there is one thing you got right: yes, Buffy The Vampire Slayer would be most likely trademarked. But, if you only use it in the body of the poem, and not the title, you would be fine. Then you wouldn't be trading on the name Buffy.

This is all academic, because you wouldn't have made the same defense if I'd said "short story".

Actually, it depends. If it was a short story about someone's love of Buffy, then, that wouldn't be theft. But, if it was a short story about Buffy, then, yeah, it's fan fiction and you're stealing someone's ideas.

But, actually, I should clarify: in your example of the poem, you said if someone wrote a poem about their love of Buffy, that's a different beast all together than someone writing a poem about Buffy's love for Spike and how they like to get in on on the living room couch. The former is fair use, the second, is fan fiction.
 
I seem to remember when DC Comics had a wonderful post-TWOK comic series, with really nice original characters, and after a while, Paramount stepped in and buh-bye new characters and storylines.
 
I seem to remember when DC Comics had a wonderful post-TWOK comic series, with really nice original characters, and after a while, Paramount stepped in and buh-bye new characters and storylines.

I would be interested in knowing about the agreement between DC and Paramount at that time: who owned the new characters? DC or Paramount? I would think Paramount.
 
In a thread about copyright infringement, you think me using the word stealing is trolling?
If you believe that, you are more than welcome to report me. As one should do with trolls.
And have to parse the legalese of the terms of service to see if it qualifies as a report-able incident and then have to argue with you over that? Pass. ;)
I don't care how a layperson perceives a word. Maybe if the layperson understood the context, they just might agree that the word stealing is appropriate.
I'm sure you could cherry-pick someone with that viewpoint, and I could similarly find a layperson with the opposite viewpoint.
If you had an idea for a novel and I decided to write it, what would you call me? A copyright infringer? Hint: no, because you can't copyright ideas.
Stick a pin in this...
Not mistaking your content for that of the original IP holder would be a part of a Fair Use Defense. That's why reviewers can use clips because no one in their right mind would mistake a review of Lord of the Rings for Lord of the Rings itself.
That's not correct. Fair use allows for short clips and citation of works in some circumstances, particularly in an academic or critical context. It has nothing to do with mistaking the origin of the content. Otherwise, I could just stick a banner at the top of a movie saying "I don't own the copyright to this" and post the entire movie on YouTube without any problem.
But there is one thing you got right: yes, Buffy The Vampire Slayer would be most likely trademarked. But, if you only use it in the body of the poem, and not the title, you would be fine. Then you wouldn't be trading on the name Buffy.
I'm pretty sure that trademark doesn't make a distinction between the title and the body. There are certain criteria in which you are allowed to reference a trademark (e.g. "Star Trek is a television series created by Gene Roddenberry..."), but if you were to write an epic fictional poem about Buffy and kept using her name, it would probably be trademark infringement, regardless of the title.
Actually, it depends. If it was a short story about someone's love of Buffy, then, that wouldn't be theft.
It wouldn't be theft either way. By the way, "theft" is defined as "the action or crime of stealing", so now you are implying criminality!
But, if it was a short story about Buffy, then, yeah, it's fan fiction and you're stealing someone's ideas.
1) You can't copyright ideas, remember? You just said so. So now you're conflating the simple and lawful exchange and dissemination of ideas with unlawful theft.
2) It should be pointed out that the person who came up with the copyrighted material is not necessarily the copyright holder. In fact, in the case of CBS, it's highly probable.
3) Copyright infringement is not always clear cut. Someone can think they're making fair use of something, or that their character or plot is sufficiently different not to infringe, and still be found guilty of infringement by the courts. This is one of the reasons the word "stealing" isn't helpful. Is whether or not Dark Matter is "stealing" from Trek solely dependent on whether a particular jury thinks so? Can someone "steal" without intending to?
But, actually, I should clarify: in your example of the poem, you said if someone wrote a poem about their love of Buffy, that's a different beast all together than someone writing a poem about Buffy's love for Spike and how they like to get in on on the living room couch. The former is fair use, the second, is fan fiction.
I never specified that the poem was about someone's love of Buffy. In fact, I never even said that the hypothetical teenager "loved" Buffy in the first place.

Also, you imply that fan fiction cannot ever fall under fair use. A parody might be fan fiction, and it would still be fair use. I recall a story about a female version of the Doctor called "Doctor What", for example.
If folks think the guidelines are harsh, just imagine how great it would be as an official licensee to have CBS all up in your grill 24/7.
CBS is not legally required to enforce license restrictions any more than they have to enforce the guidelines now.
I would be interested in knowing about the agreement between DC and Paramount at that time: who owned the new characters? DC or Paramount? I would think Paramount.
Only if Paramount got the new characters as part of a settlement or existing contract. That's why Guideline #9 rubs me the wrong way...
Star Trek Fan Film Guidelines said:
9. Creators of fan productions must not seek to register their works, nor any elements of the works, under copyright or trademark law.
This means your original characters. Hope you didn't borrow a character from a story you wrote and intend to file a copyright on.
 
So in sum, the argument here is that CBS/P really needs to limited-license to fans because there are just too many ways that CBS/P could sue under the guidelines (if they chose to ignore the guidelines), and this is an unacceptable situation for fans to be in?
 
I read an earlier draft and it was a poorly plotted, masturbatory fantasy about a Gary Stu who everyone thought was da shit, with the final fifth a Starfleet Battles game converted to a teleplay. It had nothing to say about war except pew pew pew.

And those were its good points.

In Axanar's favor, that's not that far from the description of a lot of network TV over the years...
 
How so? It's the official word of the official source in an official podcast available on the official website and elsewhere. Someone who can't figure that out probably won't know enough about fan films to know that the guidelines exist at all.

First, if you feel some verbal information that is somewhere in some podcast is just as easy to track down than, for example, using Google on a more searchable bit of text, or even if one were directed to the exact podcast (which may be who knows how long?) and one can find the exact bit of verbal information another claims lies somewhere within the podcast, and one can later quickly direct others to that exact information and quickly show them, too, when in fact they also might have to slowly crawl through it just to find it, etc. then you and I have very different ideas about what constitutes easier or harder to find and to show others.

But more to the point, don't you think you are being more than a little inconsistent?

I said:

Is there a grandfather clause in the guidelines? I must have missed it.

You said:

Yes, evidently you did. Go listen to the Engage podcast interview with CBS Licensing's John Van Citters.

And now you say:

More to the point, the grandfathering is not part of the guidelines; it's a comment on who should be following the guidelines.

But mostly, I can't say I think too highly of insinuating another person isn't clever enough to know what's what simply because they may not have seen, or heard, a particular bit of information yet. Once properly directed to the information and if it's given in a reasonable manner, any shortcomings they had in that regard are gone. But generally being that inconsistent suggests a deeper, potentially more lingering problem. Wouldn't you concur?

The podcast was transcribed here on TrekBBS in the Fan Film forum. The podcast is also an opinion offered by one of the people responsible for issuing the guidelines; nothing in the podcast is enforceable.

The TL;DR version is that Van Critters stated that they were not looking to shut anything down, just rein in the fan films to be "real" fan films and not near-studio quality productions that could potentially confuse unaffiliated customers.

Nothing was said about "grandfathering" other than they didn't want any film in the middle of production to interpret this as a Cease & Desist.

Which is not the same as "go right ahead" since that may imply tacit license.

Indeed? If so, then apparently searching for the term "grandfather" on a transcription of that podcast still wouldn't locate the sought after information. And that's even assuming something like Star Trek BBS would be properly and fully indexed routinely enough by Google to have that text in the searchable database. The fact the verbal opinion isn't enforceable, of course, doesn't bother me since it's understood even the written guidelines are not enforceable (that is, the fans can't force CBS/Paramount to honor them since CBS/P always reserve the right to change their minds).
 
* in particular, this recent bait-dangling:
(the screencap of Alec explaining that Mr. Waters reproduced Terry's "Ares Digital" scope of work in 1 month)

Well if Alec did completely send the Axanar perks that were not tied to the ongoing delays in producing the Axanar movie, then I'd say that he has a point contrasting that with Terry's work.

If however Alec is omitting the minor detail that the list needed a bunch of cleaning/validating, work beyond simply "rewriting Ares Digital", then I would call his claim misleading.
 
You actually used the word "theft" to describe it at one point, and "stealing", the word you've most commonly used, is a synonym for theft. Theft is a criminal act, and some forms of theft are indeed felonies. So I should correct myself in saying that your use of language implied criminality, rather then specifically a felony.
...

I would question the ethics of defining a word as broadly as possible for the sole purpose of creating a perceived equivalence. Under your definition of stealing, a person robbing you at gunpoint and a teenage girl posting a poem about Buffy the Vampire Slayer on Facebook are both "stealing", but to call them morally and ethically equivalent is absurd..

Merriam Webster online dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stealing

Definition of theft
  1. 1a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
  2. b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
Definition of steal
stole

play \ˈstōl\;
stolen
play \ˈstō-lən\;
stealing
  1. intransitive verb
  2. 1 : to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice

  3. 2 : to come or go secretly, unobtrusively, gradually, or unexpectedly

  4. 3 : to steal or attempt to steal a base

  5. transitive verb
  6. 1a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully. stole a car
  7. b : to take away by force or unjust means. they've stolen our liberty
All bolding is mine.

If copyright infringement is not an unlawful taking, I don't know what is. And intellectual property is property. (Duh! It's in the name.)
 
This is just semantics. One of the definitions of "permit" is to "provide an opportunity or scope for (something) to take place". CBS is most definitely doing that. The law doesn't care about permission. It cares if you granted an explicit license. CBS is exploiting the gap between the two.

This whole discussion is just a big helping of steaming semantics, with a course of over-parsed metaphors, and a side order mashed and loaded analogies.
 
So, in other words: no, there's no implied permission.

Implied? We keep using that word. However, I do not think it means what you think it means. You seem to be saying anything short of "explicit" permission means not even implicit permission can exist, and if I can't show you where the law says permission is implied, then it isn't implied. But if the law actually said that, it would be explicit. Implicit means to suggest something without actually saying it. So asking somebody to show you were the law doesn't actually say something is beyond the pale of common sense.

Maybe the confusion is about what is implied. I think it means society implies (and CBS/Paramount have even implied more strongly via their published guidelines) that you can use their IP, but at your own risk, since they always reserve the right to take exception to what you're doing and can legally stop you or forcfully request you alter your film any time they wish, lest they shut you down. It is never meant to suggest it is implied you have legal permission since they have explicitly said you don't.

I have not yet heard back from our lawyer friend, and, I confess, I did not read more than a half dozen of the 50 pages he offered via link, which is probably more than most here have read of those 50 pages, but even there all I think that said was this:

Nothing short of explicit permission can be taken as "legal" permission to do something with another's IP. And that is, of course, correct. But I'm not sure who is actually claiming implied permission is the same as legal permission to do something. I'm sure not saying that. I'm saying the very nature of copyright law and how our society works requiring us to settle civil matters in the courts rather than take the law into our own hands suggests anyone has (implied, but not legal) permission to use another's IP. Doing this, however, is always legally an infringement. This is not the same as saying it is always legally theft. Infringement and theft are not interchangeable or equivalent terms, and nowhere in copyright law can you point out where they have EVER defined copyright infringement of any sort as always the same as copyright theft. There are, as we have seen, other legal provisions and guidelines and precedents where certain acts might cross commonly accepted lines, and in doing so, probably cross into criminal behavior, but not every infringement does this.

Sadly, too many point to partial court rulings and take something out of context, and this type of cherry picking behavior often seems to support their case, even when a more thorough reading the entire ruling would demonstrate otherwise. But as many lawyers have said, you can do that to suggest legal support for any position. What's more important is one doesn't mistake a particular ruling on a particular case to mean all other cases will be ruled in the same way. They may have other extenuating circumstances, or things may have changed sufficiently since then so the ruling would no longer apply. In short, if you what to know what the law says or thinks about a particular matter, then you have to take it to court and let them rule. Only then will you know. Before then, any claims to know how they will rule for a fact are likely erroneous inferences.

Taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission is...?

In fanfildom, probably just an infringement if that something is copyrighted IP, but it could possibly be theft. Ask the courts to know. If you claim to know before you do that, you are being more than a little disingenuous. And the word "taking" also bears closer scrutiny, while you're at it.

I was referring to a free license that codifies restrictions similar to what's in the guidelines. Basically, a license that allows fan filmmakers to "come in out of the cold" and nothing more.

CBS/Paramount could sell one-use licenses to fan film productions that essentially are legal permission to make a film, as long as the film makers remained within the stated parameters, violation of which would nullify the contract, cancel the license (NO REFUNDS!) and revert to CBS/Paramount again having the legal right to sue you and stop your project from being made, or shown, just as before you purchased the license. It might both generate revenue for CBS/P, and please the fanfilmdom community since it would tend to encourage fan film makers (and contributors) to proceed with greater confidence without the worry the IP owners could still be capricious and close them down simply on a whim.
 
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