Casual clothes TNG to PIC - from terrible to far too 2020s?

[Dukhat]

However, to me (other options are available) Trek was supposed to be a decent guess at our future featuring more evolved humans. TNG in particular. That’s what I always loved about ST - that we would improve.

That was Roddenberry's original idea for TNG; that humanity would have evolved past the need for such things as material wealth, emotional reactions, or veneration for past history. The problem was that the audience doesn't think like that, so they can't relate.

I'll give you an example. I don't recall the specific early TNG episode, but the gist of it was that a crewmember dies on a mission, and leaves behind a kid or a husband/wife, etc. Well, according to Roddenberry, those people left behind should not be grieving or show emotions about their lost loved one AT ALL, because humanity has evolved beyond such things. Death is a fact of life, and you just acknowledge it and move on as if it were nothing more than a paper cut. Well, guess what? The 20th century viewing audience would have found that appalling.

Another example was "The Neutral Zone." In that episode, three people frozen from the 20th century are discovered. And what is Picard's reaction? Sheer indifference, and almost irritation if these people get in the way of running his ship. It's as if the historical significance of three living people from 400 years in the past means nothing to him. All he does is patronize them by pointing out how backward their antiquated beliefs are in comparison to his own. Now contrast that with history buff Picard from later seasons, who would have jumped at the opportunity to meet people from the past and learn from them.

So again, saner heads prevailed and understood that in order for their show to be accepted and watched by a contemporary 20th century viewing audience, they needed to cater to that audience's expectations, and not try to make the show about some far future people's belief systems that the people watching the show can't identify with.

 

[fireproof78]

I’d like to think we get to a point where fabric/textile technology has reached a point that clothes can be extremely comfortable and look smart.

The Disco uniforms (not the brand new ones) looked horrendously uncomfortable to me. Those collars and all the metal bits.

I would hope so and generally agree. But, it goes to believability for me as well. The Discovery uniforms as presented didn't look all that comfortable with the collar, though I am particular about collars so there is that. But, the look is hit and miss.

However, I would say the same about almost all Trek fashion. It feels like it looks good and that's it. It isn't practical, lacks pockets or obvious ways to carry items, and struggles with looking anything more than tight fitting. In a uniform, that's fine because the old joke about uniforms being uncomfortable goes back to TOS. But, in civilian clothes, I find that even more suspect.

I'll give you an example. I don't recall the specific early TNG episode, but the gist of it was that a crewmember dies on a mission, and leaves behind a kid or a husband/wife, etc. Well, according to Roddenberry, those people left behind should not be grieving or show emotions about their lost loved one AT ALL, because humanity has evolved beyond such things. Death is a fact of life, and you just acknowledge it and move on as if it were nothing more than a paper cut. Well, guess what? The 20th century viewing audience would have found that appalling.

That was "The Bonding" submitted by Ron Moore and purchased by Michael Piller. It was Piller's first experience of the Rodenberry box.

 

[Phil123]

You do both point out good examples of the strict Gene vision being problematic for TV. And it is true, it did need some tempering. I suppose it’s just strayed a little further than I’d sometimes like but hey.

 

[fireproof78]

You do both point out good examples of the strict Gene vision being problematic for TV. And it is true, it did need some tempering. I suppose it’s just strayed a little further than I’d sometimes like but hey.

It's a matter of creating something that is accessible and yet optimistic. When Kirk says "We are killers but we're not going to kill today" he is highlighting both current humanity's struggle and potential. That's the humanistic point of view. What TNG tended towards was extremely optimistic, to the point that it feels both unobtainable and elitist.

I think there is a balance to be tried for, because if it is shooting for telling a story about our humanity and the potential that exists then 20th/21st century audiences need to feel engaged.

 

[Phil123]

It's a matter of creating something that is accessible and yet optimistic. When Kirk says "We are killers but we're not going to kill today" he is highlighting both current humanity's struggle and potential. That's the humanistic point of view. What TNG tended towards was extremely optimistic, to the point that it feels both unobtainable and elitist.

I think there is a balance to be tried for, because if it is shooting for telling a story about our humanity and the potential that exists then 20th/21st century audiences need to feel engaged.

To true. And I suppose to bring it back to the clothes, the same applies for the future fashion as well!

 

[Lord Garth]

Interesting responses. I had a feeling I’d be on my own preferring the whacky stuff! Any others out there who liked it please join me haha.



I found this most interesting, and when speaking of modern Trek it has some truth to it.

However, to me (other options are available) Trek was supposed to be a decent guess at our future featuring more evolved humans. TNG in particular. That’s what I always loved about ST - that we would improve.

I suppose in a weird way my clothes preference reflects my preference for the more utopian aspects of Star Trek.

I think the look should fit the tone. If PIC wasn't intended to be so serious, I'd be totally onboard with wacky.

 

[Sci]

It's a matter of creating something that is accessible and yet optimistic. When Kirk says "We are killers but we're not going to kill today" he is highlighting both current humanity's struggle and potential. That's the humanistic point of view. What TNG tended towards was extremely optimistic, to the point that it feels both unobtainable and elitist.

I think there is a balance to be tried for, because if it is shooting for telling a story about our humanity and the potential that exists then 20th/21st century audiences need to feel engaged.

Exactly. There are ways of preserving Roddenberrian optimism about a more progressive future, without depicting people as having psychologies that are completely unrelatable. Like, the idea that people in the future won't grieve is not optimistic -- it's deeply offensive, because the only way there can be no grief is if nobody loves each other anymore. But. You can find optimism in your depiction of loss by, for instance, establishing that lifespans are much longer, that the vast majority of people are able to live long and fulfilling lives, that most people facing death are able to find peace and purpose, and that love transcends loss and grief.

And you can preserve Roddenberrian optimism about the future in terms of fashion by not depicting people as wearing ugly Greyhound upholstery.

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly. There are ways of preserving Roddenberrian optimism about a more progressive future, without depicting people as having psychologies that are completely unrelatable. Like, the idea that people in the future won't grieve is not optimistic -- it's deeply offensive, because the only way there can be no grief is if nobody loves each other anymore. But. You can find optimism in your depiction of loss by, for instance, establishing that lifespans are much longer, that the vast majority of people are able to live long and fulfilling lives, that most people facing death are able to find peace and purpose, and that love transcends loss and grief.

And you can preserve Roddenberrian optimism about the future in terms of fashion by not depicting people as wearing ugly Greyhound upholstery.

The biggest question I have is how does clothing reflect utopianism? Like, in TNG you have "Justice" which creates this idealic environment and they are all dressed like bathing suit competition. I guess my question is how to you create clothing feels more future focused on optimistic development of the future humanity.

 

[Phil123]

Yeah it’s all subjective I suppose. To me it would be about comfort and opulence. Less grey, worn, tactical type stuff.

part of me would love to live on the Justice planet. The other part would hate it.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah it’s all subjective I suppose. To me it would be about comfort and opulence. Less grey, worn, tactical type stuff.

part of me would love to live on the Justice planet. The other part would hate it.

It's funny to see the different reactions to different colors. I find gray to be very comfortable, and relaxed wear is often what I imagine when I think of gray. But, tight fitting jumpsuits doesn't scream opulence to me.

 

[Qonundrum]

Great post and points!

While hairdos invariably reek of the time periods they're made in, costumes have a little more creative freedom. I'd much rather see an attempt at something creative than going down to the local off-the-rack place for generic garments as those will date worse all while showing a lack of creativity nonetheless. Case in point: 1979 Buck Rogers where it's often just garb left over form Studio 54 with (far more often than not) nothing added, possibly to compensate for the raw costs of the f/x that had to be reused every week... At least Blake's 7 put in a token effort in mixing Robin Hood and other styles - which still often hold up because there was enough of creative a mix of contemporary fashion with other ideas creatively woven in, sorry for the pun... (with a couple exceptions, but either which way they at least tried to do something that felt like it could be a possibility, as opposed to nothing evolving or innovated since 2020 -- we already get that from the hairdos, and not wrongly so if you think about it - is a bad outfit or a bad hairdo more easily to balk at? )

 

[Phil123]

Good point about Blake’s 7. They are certainly an odd mix but I too enjoyed them. I’m trying to think of other examples but struggling. Maybe Star Wars? It certainly has a somewhat timeless feel to the costuming. 2001 perhaps too?

 

[Finn]

I dunno: I rather liked Tasha's off-duty wardrobe in "The Naked Now."

Wasn't that actually Deanna's clothes?

 

[The Wormhole]

I suppose in a weird way my clothes preference reflects my preference for the more utopian aspects of Star Trek.

What, it's only Utopia if everyone's wearing ill-fitting jumpsuits?

 

[Vger23]

Star Trek isn’t about a realistic portrayal of the future.

You just melted the brains of thousands upon thousands of fans.

 

[Sci]

Good point about Blake’s 7. They are certainly an odd mix but I too enjoyed them. I’m trying to think of other examples but struggling. Maybe Star Wars? It certainly has a somewhat timeless feel to the costuming. 2001 perhaps too?

The PT and SqT of Star Wars films are a really good example of using a pastiche of clothing styles from multiple eras of the past to suggest a sort of "timelessness" in costume design.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Nothing ages a sci-fi work like bad space clothes.

 

[Qonundrum]

Good point about Blake’s 7. They are certainly an odd mix but I too enjoyed them. I’m trying to think of other examples but struggling. Maybe Star Wars? It certainly has a somewhat timeless feel to the costuming. 2001 perhaps too?

Good point about Star Wars! Some outfits are "basic" and built somewhat on contemporary ideas and yet it manages to make the styles look like their own thing and not an instant gawk-and-point-at. The Empire outfits are military uniforms but not so way-out that they lose credibility. Han's is a scoundrel-like outfit but has no grounded timeframe. Desert outfits and flowing robes are par for the course and yet "The Ten Commandments" never came to mind. Darth Vader harks back to Japanese Samurai with modern angles carefully crafted and became an innovation that could not be topped (either by Wonder Woman's cheap Sardor or the great Gonzo Kylo Ren.)

Ditto for 2001, which is closer to being Earth-bound but in the near-future so they couldn't go outlandish, and anything that reeked "1968" would be their vision of technological progress, mostly with the computer core with the removable cards... and, of course, the 1970 color scheme with all the yellow and orange - which definitely looked more inspiring at the time but looks like an oversized sleeve full of french fries nowadays.

The PT and SqT of Star Wars films are a really good example of using a pastiche of clothing styles from multiple eras of the past to suggest a sort of "timelessness" in costume design.

I think pastiche can have some value in both grounding while expanding and vice-versa... And being iconic to the brand. The prequels were too much in creating new looks without enough anchoring to the original (and shoving in technological aspects that seemed anachronistic as they weren't explained in the OT, much less given a denouement in Episode III (or Rogue One, which has some of the same issues, just not related to armies of robot droids also used as cheesy comic relief). The sequel trilogy is the opposite, relying arguably too much on the iconic look without expanding on it as much as they could have to expand on the universe while keeping grounded.

 

[plynch]

The apple store and all the lights in your face of jj2007 looks very dated to this observer, if I may respond to a poster upthread without quoting.

 

[Lord Garth]

It’s that true, or is it a function of aging, the way years seem shorter the older you get? Would a 13-year-old right now thing ST09 seemed dated?

13 years old? I have no idea. But apparently a 23-year-old, someone born in 1998 and was only 11 when it came out doesn't seem to think Star Trek (2009) is dated. This is his First-Time Reaction.

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EDITED TO ADD: For what it's worth, I personally think all of Star Trek up through Enterprise and Nemesis looks dated. It's just a matter of to what degree.