Case dismissed! Discovery and Tardigrade game "not similar"

[Gepard]

It would not surprise me in the least if The Orville writers put these lines into the episode in a show of of solidarity with DSC writers. After all, they're in the same business with the same exposure to claims frivolous claims of plagiarism.

If so, nice. Thanks, Seth!

A show of solidarity for...existing? This lawsuit didn't exist when the Orville pilot aired, let alone when it was being written.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

From the Orville premiere episode:

It's pretty obvious that TV writers and other people that create entertainment got inspired by all the tardigrade articles and features that came out around 2014.

Seth MacFarlane financed and executive produced the updated version of Cosmos in 2014, which featured a segment on tardigrades (which I suspect is where a lot of people in the general public first learned about their ability to survive in space), so he's had a fascination with them for a while.

 

[Jinn]

Thanks for linking the two "Tardigrade"-game teasers!
They really highlight the similarities - but also make clear those are really the only similarities.

Yeah, they obviously didn't make an unlicensed adaption of his game. Discovery has no connection to ancient egyptian gods, nor have I heard anything about a multi-dimensional mushroom in the game. And yes, I'm aware of the Interview where they were talking about their concept for a Tardigrade crewmember. But do we know if that was their original idea? Or that they simply thought about changing the tardigrade to a crewmember, and then decided not to? In a court they would have to lay down where their start- and where their end-point creatively was. In a mere interview, they can say whatever they want (like they envisioned the klingons always to have had hair).

Yeah, I think the best part about It going to court! is that we may learn more cool BTS stuff.

And yes, if they were ripping off the guy - then exactly after they saw these two teasers that you linked. That's really all the connection between the two. He made a trailer with a really weird idea. And somebody saw it, and incorporated that weird idea in their own work.

Nothing more. But also - nothing less.

I can see how they'd see the trailer for the tardigrade teleportation thing and got inspired to do something with a teleporting tardigrade. However I don't see how they would then rip-off the particle effects from the other one, I mean, if I stole a concept from another property I wouldn't steal another really trivial concept that could easily be changed to something else (different colored sparks for example), because that would needlessly link the two. Plus, with the blue esthetics and the whole spores idea (the blue particles were spores, right?) it would be kinda hard to get around that.

 

[Krandor]

As I said: Any single one of those similarities alone can be completely coincidental. But the FTL-one is a real BIG and unique one. And that everyting else matches as well is corrobating the connection. Even if any one similarity alone could have a logical explanation, the culmination of all of them is really damning.

i don't see a lot of "everything else matches".

When I saw the trardigrade and how it is being used as a navigator I think it has more similarities to Dune then to this game because what the tardigrade was doing was still different. In DSC it is being a navigator not causing the jump itself. Blue sparkes are generic and not even used in the same way in both versions. DSC did have one scene of the tardigrade jumping on its own but you could remove that scene and change nothing about the show - it isn't even an integral part and isn't hugging somebody either. The color of the tardigrde has been covered.

the guy also wants to claim characters were stolen and he presents them in a way that makes it looks like they were but again it doesn't handle well to being looked at under scritiny.

Yes there are some superficial similarities to things but when you get into the details they just are not all that close.

 

[Rahul]

i don't see a lot of "everything else matches".

When I saw the trardigrade and how it is being used as a navigator I think it has more similarities to Dune then to this game because what the tardigrade was doing was still different. In DSC it is being a navigator not causing the jump itself. Blue sparkes are generic and not even used in the same way in both versions. DSC did have one scene of the tardigrade jumping on its own but you could remove that scene and change nothing about the show - it isn't even an integral part and isn't hugging somebody either. The color of the tardigrde has been covered.

the guy also wants to claim characters were stolen and he presents them in a way that makes it looks like they were but again it doesn't handle well to being looked at under scritiny.

Yes there are some superficial similarities to things but when you get into the details they just are not all that close.

Well, yeah.
They never played the game - it wasn't released yet. Everything they could take away from the guy was the stuff he showed in the trailer.

So they're really not ripping off this guys game. Their expanding on what they interpreted happened in the trailer for the game. That's really the one and only, but big, connection: A plot centered around a giant, blue sparkling tardigrade that can make people travel the universe.

That's a pretty specific scenario. That's what I gathered from the game trailers. I haven't played it myself, and have honestly no interest in, so everything that's different in the actual game, I don't know about.

But it honestly looks as if somebody from the show saw these game trailers, and then copied the imagery and concepts presented in these trailers, to create his own story and scenario out of them. Is that already stealing? I have honestly no idea how a court would judge this behaviour.

 

[Krandor]

So they're really not ripping off this guys game. Their expanding on what they interpreted happened in the trailer for the game. That's really the one and only, but big, connection: A plot centered around a giant, blue sparkling tardigrade that can make people travel the universe.

In the trailer, the tardigrade hugs you and teleports you. In DSC the tardigrade is a dune like navigator. not really the same.

You are still making an assumption that somebody from DSC saw the trailer and read through this guys blog. I still don't see enough similarities to think that happened and the fact that the tardigrade guy is presenting some of his evidence is a misleading matter raises a big red flag with me. If it is so obvious why present the information in misleading ways?

 

[DaveyNY]

In the trailer, the tardigrade hugs you and teleports you. In DSC the tardigrade is a dune like navigator. not really the same.

You are still making an assumption that somebody from DSC saw the trailer and read through this guys blog. I still don't see enough similarities to think that happened and the fact that the tardigrade guy is presenting some of his evidence is a misleading matter raises a big red flag with me. If it is so obvious why present the information in misleading ways?

Because his half-arsed lawyers told him to do it that way?

 

[Noname Given]

Well, yeah.
They never played the game - it wasn't released yet. Everything they could take away from the guy was the stuff he showed in the trailer.

So they're really not ripping off this guys game. Their expanding on what they interpreted happened in the trailer for the game. That's really the one and only, but big, connection: A plot centered around a giant, blue sparkling tardigrade that can make people travel the universe.

That's a pretty specific scenario. That's what I gathered from the game trailers. I haven't played it myself, and have honestly no interest in, so everything that's different in the actual game, I don't know about.

But it honestly looks as if somebody from the show saw these game trailers, and then copied the imagery and concepts presented in these trailers, to create his own story and scenario out of them. Is that already stealing? I have honestly no idea how a court would judge this behaviour.

If the Tardigrade in his game ALSO required 'magic mushrooms' - I would agree with you; but it didn't. <--- That's also a major aspect of the ST: D storyline - The Mycelial network is what allows ANYTHING to travel along it. Yes in ST: D the Tartigrades exist on a planet with the spores and it seems can use them to travel; but it's NOT an innate power they have per se. If the game had something similar to that aspect, I'd agree with you that it's case closed - but as far as I've seen, the game doesn't.

Still, in the end; I doubt this will see an actual trial. If CBS' MTD doesn't get the case dismissed outright (which is honestly unlikely because there is probably enough similarity on the surface, a Judge would think it should go to a trial - they don't like to dismiss out of hand if there's ANYTHING that a trier of fact could dispute); CBS will settle with the guy (and neither side will discuss the particulars or the amount); and move on.

 

[Rahul]

In the trailer, the tardigrade hugs you and teleports you. In DSC the tardigrade is a dune like navigator. not really the same.

You are still making an assumption that somebody from DSC saw the trailer and read through this guys blog. I still don't see enough similarities to think that happened and the fact that the tardigrade guy is presenting some of his evidence is a misleading matter raises a big red flag with me. If it is so obvious why present the information in misleading ways?

If the Tardigrade in his game ALSO required 'magic mushrooms' - I would agree with you; but it didn't. <--- That's also a major aspect of the ST: D storyline - The Mycelial network is what allows ANYTHING to travel along it. Yes in ST: D the Tartigrades exist on a planet with the spores and it seems can use them to travel; but it's NOT an innate power they have per se. If the game had something similar to that aspect, I'd agree with you that it's case closed - but as far as I've seen, the game doesn't.

Still, in the end; I doubt this will see an actual trial. If CBS' MTD doesn't get the case dismissed outright (which is honestly unlikely because there is probably enough similarity on the surface, a Judge would think it should go to a trial - they don't like to dismiss out of hand if there's ANYTHING that a trier of fact could dispute); CBS will settle with the guy (and neither side will discuss the particulars or the amount); and move on.

Since you have both seemed to miss the point, and continue to harp on there existing differences (which, yeah they do, it's not an adaption), it's really about the similarities the guy alleges they stole from him. Which looks VERY credible, considering just how both unique the concept and yet similar the executions are:

Thing is: "Ant-Man & Wasp" is a shrinking movie. It showed real-life Tardigrades in their natural environment. You can't claim copyright for real life things. The makers of "The Revenant" can't claim ownership of the concept of "bear encounter in the wild".

What makes this particular case special are the freakinglish close similarities in the changes of the real-life thing:

1. Exact match in size of supersized Tardigrade: Like, both Tardigrades are enlarged to the exact same size: Around 2m in height. Tardigrades are microscopic beings. If you'd enlarge them for a story, they could be anything from fist-size to space-wale size. That they have the exact same, enlarged size is suspicious.
2. Blue-ish Color of Tardigrade: In all other media, wether Ant-Man, that Neil-de-Grasse-Tyson bit, or webcomics, Tardigrades are usually depicted as flesh-colored. That change alone doesn't mean that much. But it's suspicious that all the visual changes are similar.
3. FTL-capability: That's really the big one. "Tardigrades in space" is one thing. Using specifically Tardigrades as a means for faster-than-light-travel is pretty unique, no matter how much everyone here tries to downplay this. It would be one thing to have the Tardigrade as part of a machine (Frank Herbert says hello), but that specific image of having a lone Tardigrade floating in space zapping into hyperspace - that's really freaking unique!
4. The blue sparkling: This is really the icing on the cake, and what made me think this guy has a case: Not are just all the relevant content changes the same. They even LOOK the same. The visuals are 100% identical, like a life-action adaptation of an animated content. Even if there are slight alterations in the exact technicalities of the backstory (mushroom spores...). That shit doesn't look coincidental.

Now, any two of these changes at the same time wouldn't be suspicious. And if I'm completely honest, I really don't see that much similarities in the characters of the video game and the show. And a lot of the other aesthetic similarities (blue overalls, dark grey corridors) are super generic sci-fi tropes and make more a case for both sides being pretty unimaginative in most regards.

But yeah, all these similarities regarding the Tardigrade do raise an eyebrow. Not any of them alone, but the combination of all of them.

Now it's completely, 100% possible that both sides came to the same concept at the same time independantly. Lots of things have been invented at the same time during history. But even in this case, the one who was "earlier" usually got recognition & compensation if someone else used the same specific idea after him, even if he came to it independantly.

So yeah, I'm not exactly rooting for this guy (or against CBS for that matter), but as someone highly interested in creation of artistic content, this lawsuit really is kinda' interesting in how they are going to deal with it, and especially how much a unique "idea" you can come up with is really worth.

Again: If I were to create a science fiction story that has supernatural monks in it, who fight with glowing swords against an oppressive space Empire, Disney wouldn't care that my monks use plasma-sabers instead of light-sabers, and that their magical power comes from a supernatural mushroom entity and not some vague "Force". They would sue my ass for stealing an idea that belongs to them. And rightly so.

And so does most likely this guy. Only that he's a lone guy going against a large corporate entity, which makes the whole thing unbalanced against him, even if the facts support this guy's position.

 

[XCV330]

Again: If I were to create a science fiction story that has supernatural monks in it, who fight with glowing swords against an oppressive space Empire, Disney wouldn't care that my monks use plasma-sabers instead of light-sabers, and that their magical power comes from a supernatural mushroom entity and not some vague "Force". They would sue my ass for stealing an idea that belongs to them. And rightly so.

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Credit to Mr Lucas for all he did, but coming up with an original story or worldbuilding isn't one of them. He pretty much based everything he did off of old 1930's serials and golden age sci fi.

Warrior Monks fighting for justice: please.. just pick one. there are many. Many many. Even if you don't count Templars, Hospitallers, Arthurian legends, Shao Lin, etc. See Fritz Lieber.

Energy sword: Asimov, most likely. Won't be the first time Lucas borrows from Asimov, of course. he also has Trantor I mean Coruscant. Or, you know, the whole Galactic Empire thing. Or planet Corellia. Yeah.. he actually completely outright stole that one. The Asimov version was a "force blade" btw. And let's not pretend he wasn't heavily borrowing from Tolkien as well. He wasn't the first or last to prop himself up on Tolkien's shoulders. It's hard not to.

Harsh desert world that breeds a future hero to take down an Empire with his own mystic powers: I always have wondered what Frank Herbert thought about that.

Flash Gordon serials: some of the shots from Star Wars can be taken frame for frame from these. It's on purpose. Star Wars is an homage to them.

Galactic Republic: take your pick, but certainly once again Asimov, and possibly H. Beam Piper, who Lucas was probably aware of, though he might be sadly forgotten now.


My point is, most ideas in science fiction/science fantasy have been rehashed already many times. It's almost impossible not to do. Star Wars is probably the worst example though.

 

[Noname Given]

Since you have both seemed to miss the point, and continue to harp on there existing differences (which, yeah they do, it's not an adaption), it's really about the similarities the guy alleges they stole from him. Which looks VERY credible, considering just how both unique the concept and yet similar the executions are:

^^^
You also seemed to miss the part of my post where I said I doubted an MTD would get the case dismissed outright, and that CBS would probably settle before letting this get to trial. BTW - I dare you to find a TRULY ORIGINAL story setup that can't be linked to something that came before it too. 'Similar; doesn't always equal 'known intentional ripoff'.

 

[fireproof78]

Again: If I were to create a science fiction story that has supernatural monks in it, who fight with glowing swords against an oppressive space Empire, Disney wouldn't care that my monks use plasma-sabers instead of light-sabers, and that their magical power comes from a supernatural mushroom entity and not some vague "Force". They would sue my ass for stealing an idea that belongs to them. And rightly so.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as that or as I would like it to be. One need only look at similarities between Dune and Star Wars, especially the use of a "mind trick" and "the voice" and the god-emperor's eventual appearance compared to Jabba the Hutt. And on and on it could go.

ETA:
A lot of things come down to final presentation, and not just the rough outline. I know that's one of your points with regards to this case is that the side of the tardigrade and the use of FTL propulsion appear similar enough on the surface. So, it will depend on the final spin that would differentiate the two.

I mean, Firefly was technically inspired by Star Trek. The Alliance was the Federation, just viewed from a different angle. And you could make an argument for Firefly ripping off Star Wars with the Alliance's uniforms if visual similarity is a qualifying factor.

 

[dahj]

Seth MacFarlane financed and executive produced the updated version of Cosmos in 2014, which featured a segment on tardigrades

So really, The Orville should be suing Star Trek for plagiarism if you think about it...

 

[fireproof78]

So really, The Orville should be suing Star Trek for plagiarism if you think about it...

Really, the conclusion of this thread is that someone should be suing someone else at all times.

 

[XCV330]

Really, the conclusion of this thread is that someone should be suing someone else at all times.

Homer will be suing everyone for making shows about travelling around in a ship and having adventures.

 

[fireproof78]

Homer will be suing everyone for making shows about travelling around in a ship and having adventures.

It's about time he got the credit that was due to him.

 

[Greg Cox]

Homer will be suing everyone for making shows about travelling around in a ship and having adventures.

Ah, he was just ripping off Gilgamesh . . .

 

[Refuge]

A lot of these examples are of well known productions or works inspiring more well known productions, either subliminally or by recognition. Frasier - Roz: Apparently I just sold my publisher... "Heidi"?

This case involves a nobody and the world wide web. It's not a stretch for him to think he was being ripped off because he is a nobody.

 

[Rahul]

George Lucas was pretty panick-y about getting sued by the Dune-guy, and overdubbed a lot of lines involving spice and stuff right before release.

Also, he acquired the rights to remake Kurosawa's movies, so that he could use elements from these films. In each case, the original idea got compensated, or people really stressed out about having to compensate. It's not that far fetched.

 

[Mudd]

It's about time he got the credit that was due to him.

They're long books with no spaceships - in the Iliad you don't even get a proper wizard (well, maybe a walk-on). So who's going to read them?