Cardassian War Federation Fatalities.

[trekshark]

Actually, per the dialogue:

TROI: They're our allies now, Mister Worf. We have to trust them.

I always wondered about Troi's line. Did they have a peace treaty or an actual alliance? I find them being allies a stretch

 

[Prax]

It's a ridiculous line. She acts like a red army political commissar in that episode. She later shames O'Brien in the transporter room with a villainous disapproving glare because he wasn't very friendly with the Cardies.

The episode itself proves Worf correct-that they aren't to be trusted.

 

[Shikarnov]

In Journey's End, Picard said "Evek, the last war caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives." Now unless the millions of lives were exclusively Cardassians during the course of the war, the Federation would have lost their share of people, and some of those would be from Starfleet who were the ones fighting the Cardassians.

How portion of these "millions of lifes" would have been people from the Federation?

And how many were Starfleet personnel?

I think the cost of "millions of lives" may have been somewhat exaggerated -- not in actual number, but in implied effect. For the audience, millions dead sounds absolutely catastrophic, but if we take into account the sheer magnitude of the Federation (twenty years after the war, during First Contact, Picard says it includes more than 150 worlds), and it begins to sound a lot more like a planetary dispute or border skirmish than an all out interstellar war.

And perhaps Captain Picard was dramatizing a bit as well. Maybe it's because of his moral position that all life is valuable, or maybe it's something like post-9/11 America in which losses of fewer than 10,000 (on 9/11, and in both Iraq and Afghanistan) are regarded as absolutely epic tragedies by contemporary citizens.

I personally reject the notion that some fans have that Starfleet could just walked all over the Cardassians in combat. The war (hot and cold) went on for multiple years and Starfleet was seemingly incapable of simply winning it swiftly. And the war ended in a treaty that neither side was completely happy about.

Why do you reject the notion? I'm sorry for continuing the comparison, but it seems too well suited. In 2003, allied forces took Iraq apart in a few weeks, but the conflict officially raged for eight years more (and arguably continues to this day) until it ended in a way that very few were actually happy about.

Given the size of the Federation compared to the Cardiassian Union, the resources, and so on, it seems particularly believable to me that the UFP would be perfectly capable of defeating the Cardassians if it so chose. But that it chose instead to exercise restraint in an effort to minimize casualties, avoid getting into a costly occupation, and so on...

So I don't think the death and destruction would have all been on one side (the Cardassians).

Starfleet would have lost hundreds of starships, while the newer starships would be superior to the average Cardassian ships, many (the majority) of Starfleet's starships were Excelsiors and other older starships, and would have been more evenly matched.

In some cases Starfleet's starships would be inferior to their Cardassian opponents.

I'm not seeing that. In The Wounded, the Cardassians were outmatched handily. Later, in DS9's The Emmissary, the Cardassians were particularly concerned about Starfleet's return to Bajor even knowing their own Fourth Order would arrive in about the same timeframe.

I suppose you could argue that older ships would be more of a match for the Cardassians, I would suggest -- unlike the Dominion War that actually taxed the might of the Federation -- there would have been little reason to send more vulnerable designs into the combat zone.

Federation member worlds would be attacked, colonies too, hundreds of thousands killed.

Granted.

The Cardassians of course would also lose ships and have their planets attacked by Starfleet.

Except in cases of an all out war for survival -- which I don't think this was as I've noted above several times -- I just can't imagine Starfleet bombarding planets and indiscriminately killing civilians. I'm sure they took out plenty of orbital stations and surface power and weapons systems, but nothing like the scale we seem to be discussing.

How would you see the "millions of lives" being divided?

I'm going to say 20 to 1.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm not seeing that. In The Wounded, the Cardassians were outmatched handily. Later, in DS9's The Emmissary, the Cardassians were particularly concerned about Starfleet's return to Bajor even knowing their own Fourth Order would arrive in about the same timeframe.

Let's remember that the "Starfleet reinforcements" that Jasad was worried about was one ship (okay, the Enterprise, but still) whereas if "The Seventh Order" is three ships, then the "Fourth Order" is likely to be at least as many, suggesting that Jasad wasn't comformatable with six-to-one odds or better.

 

[Prax]

I think the cost of "millions of lives" may have been somewhat exaggerated -- not in actual number, but in implied effect. For the audience, millions dead sounds absolutely catastrophic, but if we take into account the sheer magnitude of the Federation (twenty years after the war, during First Contact, Picard says it includes more than 150 worlds), and it begins to sound a lot more like a planetary dispute or border skirmish than an all out interstellar war.

And perhaps Captain Picard was dramatizing a bit as well. Maybe it's because of his moral position that all life is valuable, or maybe it's something like post-9/11 America in which losses of fewer than 10,000 (on 9/11, and in both Iraq and Afghanistan) are regarded as absolutely epic tragedies by contemporary citizens.



Why do you reject the notion? I'm sorry for continuing the comparison, but it seems too well suited. In 2003, allied forces took Iraq apart in a few weeks, but the conflict officially raged for eight years more (and arguably continues to this day) until it ended in a way that very few were actually happy about.

Given the size of the Federation compared to the Cardiassian Union, the resources, and so on, it seems particularly believable to me that the UFP would be perfectly capable of defeating the Cardassians if it so chose. But that it chose instead to exercise restraint in an effort to minimize casualties, avoid getting into a costly occupation, and so on...



I'm not seeing that. In The Wounded, the Cardassians were outmatched handily. Later, in DS9's The Emmissary, the Cardassians were particularly concerned about Starfleet's return to Bajor even knowing their own Fourth Order would arrive in about the same timeframe.

I suppose you could argue that older ships would be more of a match for the Cardassians, I would suggest -- unlike the Dominion War that actually taxed the might of the Federation -- there would have been little reason to send more vulnerable designs into the combat zone.



Granted.



Except in cases of an all out war for survival -- which I don't think this was as I've noted above several times -- I just can't imagine Starfleet bombarding planets and indiscriminately killing civilians. I'm sure they took out plenty of orbital stations and surface power and weapons systems, but nothing like the scale we seem to be discussing.



I'm going to say 20 to 1.

So 950,000+ Cardassians died, and 50,000+ Federali?

 

[JesterFace]

The thing that bothered me about this episode is that the show was on its 4th season, and suddenly it's mentioned that ”um, yeah, we have been in a war with the Cardies, both sides have lost huge amout of people... however, we haven't mentioned this war, not once, during the program.”

The Cardy war feels like it's there just to make this one episode work... by making Miles angry with Cardassians.

 

[Shikarnov]

Let's remember that the "Starfleet reinforcements" that Jasad was worried about was one ship (okay, the Enterprise, but still) whereas if "The Seventh Order" is three ships, then the "Fourth Order" is likely to be at least as many, suggesting that Jasad wasn't comformatable with six-to-one odds or better.

I actually thought the same thing, but it's been a while since I watched Emmisary, so didn't want to say something I wasn't sure about.

So 950,000+ Cardassians died, and 50,000+ Federali?

Well, Captain Picard did say millions, plural, so I would guess at least 100K Federation against 2M Cardassians.

The low numbers would also fall neatly within what we know about Federation colonies -- which is to say they're typically low population, especially along the frontier and hard to get to or defend, and the Cardassians would need to take out multiple planetary targets over years to bump up the casualty count. It fits.

 

[Prax]

The Cardy war feels like it's there just to make this one episode work... by making Miles angry with Cardassians.

And from there, O'Brien's backstory gets Amplified. He's the hero of Setlik III, a hardened soldier, and...

"AHEM, Excuse me, I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an ENGINEER!"

Oh...sorry Miles. I didn't realize you were so sensat...

"Yeah, well don't let it happen again...or I'll feed you to my spider."

Sorry for the interruption...and a hardened 'former' soldier who has fought 235 separate combat engagements.

 

[Mojochi]

It's a ridiculous line. She acts like a red army political commissar in that episode. She later shames O'Brien in the transporter room with a villainous disapproving glare because he wasn't very friendly with the Cardies.

The episode itself proves Worf correct-that they aren't to be trusted.

It's even worse than that with O'Brien. She intruded on his private thoughts (Which probably hold Cardassians unfavorably) & then shamed him, not for being unfriendly or rude, but simply for having an errant damn emotion. Come on! Give him a break, you thought policing social attack dog. They butchered children in front of him. He's entitled to an unpleasant stray thought or 2

I find it hard to believe that someone who counsels uniformed officers could possibly be so dim, as to expect constant blissful harmony in war veterans. Of all the episodes they conspicuously omit her from, because her utopian brain magic is a ridiculous fit for the plot, The Wounded should have been included. Her presence is outstandingly awkward in that episode

I don't harp on Picard too much for that episode though. Of course he didn't board the Cardassian ships. He was ordered to keep the peace. Does anyone really think that would've been the case had he stormed aboard their ships? Picard was taking one for the team here, & I figure the only reason it wasn't as bitter a pill as it could've been is because he truly felt Maxwell had been in the wrong for how he handled it. The loss of life here is still a tragedy to someone like Picard, even if it is a former enemy who might be engaging in aggressive tactics. There's better ways to handle it, kind of like how Picard handled the Duras House's Romulan aid. Make your damn case well enough & you get support. Go off like a lynch mob, & you get the hammer

 

[Mordwyn Fen-Dweller]

I guess population Density is what differences us from the Federation, which must be made up of Billions of lifeforms, one couldn't even guess the percentage of that populace is human, but I have a feeling it is substantial due to human need to expand and reproduce. So a few Million killed in a war with the cardassians? or with the Dominion, which seems to have made a lot more inroads in actually taking key federation Planets, would the Federation really be surprised at that figure? Colonies and starships seem to go missing constantly. Based on the sheer size of the conflict, which was essentially resources of the Gamma Quadrant against the Alpha quadrant, I think the Federation suffering a few Million casualties is getting off light, Damar complaints of 11 million (I think, don't quote me) Cardassians dying for the Dominion during their war with the rest of the AQ, and that's in around 2 years, so doesn't even consider those lost to the Marquis or the Klingon invasion.

Cardassia really got smashed in that war.

 

[matthunter]

It's even worse than that with O'Brien. She intruded on his private thoughts (Which probably hold Cardassians unfavorably) & then shamed him, not for being unfriendly or rude, but simply for having an errant damn emotion. Come on! Give him a break, you thought policing social attack dog. They butchered children in front of him. He's entitled to an unpleasant stray thought or 2

I find it hard to believe that someone who counsels uniformed officers could possibly be so dim, as to expect constant blissful harmony in war veterans.

She didn't stand there accusing him of anything, or shaming him - she just reacted in shock to "hearing" what was probably quite a vicious thought from a guy who is normally jovial and friendly. It's out of character, and you'd probably stare at a friend - who is typically open and companionable - who suddenly spat out a "let all the fuckers die!".

 

[Mojochi]

She didn't stand there accusing him of anything, or shaming him - she just reacted in shock to "hearing" what was probably quite a vicious thought from a guy who is normally jovial and friendly. It's out of character, and you'd probably stare at a friend - who is typically open and companionable - who suddenly spat out a "let all the fuckers die!".

If he'd said it, yeah. Saying something is a choice, an act. An errant thought is far less voluntary, & she did shame him. His last look is a look of shame, as he breaks eye contact & tucks his head down, redirecting back at his console. (Oops! Busted). She stared him down, until he showed shame. Which was apparently sufficient, because she then just walks off, content in the knowledge that her gaze had gotten the message across, that the stuff she'd gleaned with her brain ray was wrong & he was wrong for thinking it, even if only fleetingly.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I call it "disaster porn,' when they suddenly mention a war or add a disaster to the show for dramatics. It seems really tacked on the way they did it. They said millions of lives, so it implied there was some brutal war of attrition.

It's hard to believe the deaths were from ship to ship battles. millions? And it doesn't seem like the Federation's style to do things like orbital bombardment and attacking civilian centers.

Chain of command seemed to be implying that the Gul who tortured Picard was part of this war because of the devastation and starvations and orphans running around. But when you look at his appearance/age, it doesn't seem to mesh together well. In fact we don't even know what war he was talking about now.

And later then they couldn't decide whether Cardassia was a dangerous first rate power that could match the Federation, or a resource starved third power that preyed on weaker cultures.

Troi was literally being the "thought police", although for right or wrong it's hard to say. Maybe if we did hear someone's thoughts that were distasteful it would makes us stare.

Or....the show was being too obvious with its idealogy by having Troi mind shaming Obrien for thinking something humans would normally think.