Cardassian War and Tzenkathi War Fought Concurrently?

[Dancing Doctor]

In regards to Q's comments when he sent the Enterprise to System J-25:

"You judge yourselves against the pitiful adversaries you've encountered so far: the Romulans, the Klingons. They're nothing compared to what's waiting."

This was in response to Q saying "You need me! You aren't ready for the unknown", and Picard going "We're always ready for the unknown! It's our job!" (Paraphrased, of course). It also helps that those are two of the best-known foes that the Federation has gone up against.

Quoting from Memory Alpha, in regards to Peak Performance:

Captain Picard and Riker are at first reluctant to take part in this simulation as they believe diplomacy and exploration are the more important mandates of Starfleet. However, because of the newly-discovered Borg threat, they decide it is a good idea to hone their tactical skills so as to have as many options as possible in crisis situations.

Here's the quotes from the script:

KOLRAMI
Captain Picard, I understand that
you initially resisted Starfleet's
request for this simulation.

PICARD
Yes.

KOLRAMI
May I know why?

STAR TREK: "Peak Performance" - REV. 4/25/89 - TEASER 3A.

4 CONTINUED: (2)

PICARD
Starfleet is not a military
organization. Our purpose is
exploration.

KOLRAMI
Then why am I here?

PICARD
Because with the Borg threat,
I have decided that my officers
and I need to hone our tactical
skills.

(MORE)

STAR TREK: "Peak Performance" - REV. 4/21/89 - TEASER 4.

4 CONTINUED: (3)

PICARD (Cont'd)
In a crisis situation, it is
prudent to have several options.

RIKER
I still prefer brains over brawn.
(to Kolrami)
I think it's a waste of
effort to test our combat skills
-- it's a minor province in the
make-up of a starship captain.

KOLRAMI
Your objection is noted. Let us
hope your distaste for the
exercise will not affect your
strategic abilities.

The problem with Roddenberry's vision of the future is that it's inconsistent and contradictory, really. If the 24th century is supposed to be a peaceful period of time (when we speak of peace, what do we mean, exactly? The period of time in history called the Pax Romana springs to mind, but that was really just a period of time of minimal conflict within the empire, and a time of minimal expansion. Granted, that could also describe the period of time during the early years of TNG), then why are there still security officers? Why are there still military strategists like Sirna Kolrami?

Hell, the 23rd century was pretty much one long cold war with occasional flareups between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

Wouldn't it make sense to assume that there are probably more non-friendly astropolitical entities out there, other than the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Gorn, Orions, etc.? Especially if they're just as territorial and xenophobic as many of those entities are and were.

And, looking back at the script for Encounter at Farpoint, when Groppler Zorn is talking about giving the station to someone else, he gets cut off before saying who else he'd give it to. And there was also the fact that he was kinda distracted the whole episode by trying to keep the comoszoan from not misbehaving, as well as the whole getting-captured and tortured thing too.

 

[Photon]

I was always amused by these pre TNG wars when TNG made it pretty clear that the galaxy had been in peace for a long time. It wasn't until the Phoenix started wrecking stuff that we are thrown this retcon about Cardassian Wars.

Umm, what?

Where in TNG was it suggested that there was a long peace? That was a TOS thing only. Say, from "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield":

Kirk: "You are new to this part of the galaxy, which is governed by the United Federation of Planets. We live in peace with full exercise of individual rights. The need to resort to violence and force has long since passed...

You don't find similar bits from our TNG heroes. And even Kirk's little speech above can be taken as an outright lie, as its sole purpose was to get the two black-and-white idiots aboard his ship to start behaving.

Timo Saloniemi

Where, in early TNG, do they talk about all these wars? The Cardassians didn't appear until season 4. Picard didn't think much of the War Games in Peak Performance either. If the Federation had all these violent conflicts pre-TNG it wouldn't make sense for Picard to look down on such a simulation. I could give more examples if you want. In fact I will.

Q sent the Enterprise to fight the Borg he didn't even mention the Tzenkathi or Cardassians. If the Federation had been involved in these wars then surely Q would've mentioned it. The Federation had been at peace for a long time. Any time of war recovery would've been mentioned in TNG Season 1 or 2.

TNG season 1 the main enemy was the Ferengi and they hadn't even made official contact with the Federation when the show started. The Cardassians and Tzenkathi didn't get name dropped in Encounter at Far Point. They didn't exist, obviously, but IF the original intention was for all these wars in the 2350s to have happen you bet that Zorn would've name dropped them.

Stop being an apologist to TPTB. Unless you honestly believe that Roddenberry's 24th century was one filled with war with multiple species. That wasn't Gene's intention and you know that.

It was a giant retcon. It worked, helped create DS9, but it was still a retcon.

Gene's intentions made for boring as heck TV. TG4 retcons.

 

[Timo]

I could give more examples if you want.

It would help if you gave even one valid example.

That is, our TNG heroes never said there had been a long peace. What they failed to say doesn't count - they are not obligated to list all the ongoing wars in any of the episodes. They are not the ones fighting those wars, because they have other things to do.

IF the original intention was for all these wars in the 2350s to have happen you bet that Zorn would've name dropped them.

Why on Earth would Groppler Zorn name-drop a war? That was never part of any of the conversations he had with UFP representatives.

At one point, he tried to threaten the Feds with the idea of doing business with their enemies. Defeated enemies obviously wouldn't count for much, but nevertheless the Groppler launched into a list of possibilities: "...the Ferengi, or-". Too bad he was cut short by Troi's sudden empathygasm, but the writing nevertheless was clear on there being plenty of enemies to our heroes from the get-go.

As for "Gene's intention", the earliest episodes of each series are good examples of this carrying no weight whatsoever. In TOS, we open with a Starfleet clearly divided into heroic officers and riffraff enlisted crew, contrary to Roddenberry's "intention" of only having officer astronauts as heroes. In TNG, our heroes use money to buy mundane items, contrary to Roddenberry's "intention" of not having money. In fact, the "intention" of an officer-only crew never manifests, thus leaving the writing free of contradictions; the "intention" of no money is made some fun of in DS9, but never plays a role in those Treks Roddenberry was involved in.

Certainly there's no evidence of an "intention" for a warless Starfleet in the TNG era. Our heroes constantly face battle in the early seasons of TNG, both with enemies-of-the-week and with "old" enemies who just haven't been mentioned before but apparently have popped up after we last saw Starfleet in TOS. Trying to shoehorn the idea of a warless TNG into the material is like trying to claim that TOS contradicted itself because the Enterprise didn't have cartwheels, despite the "intention" clearly being of having a wagon train into the stars. That if anything is a "retcon" - although it's neither "retroactive" (because it isn't "active" outside your posts) nor "continuity" (because warless TNG would contradict existing continuity).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Photon]

I could give more examples if you want.

It would help if you gave even one valid example.

That is, our TNG heroes never said there had been a long peace. What they failed to say doesn't count - they are not obligated to list all the ongoing wars in any of the episodes. They are not the ones fighting those wars, because they have other things to do.

IF the original intention was for all these wars in the 2350s to have happen you bet that Zorn would've name dropped them.

Why on Earth would Groppler Zorn name-drop a war? That was never part of any of the conversations he had with UFP representatives.

At one point, he tried to threaten the Feds with the idea of doing business with their enemies. Defeated enemies obviously wouldn't count for much, but nevertheless the Groppler launched into a list of possibilities: "...the Ferengi, or-". Too bad he was cut short by Troi's sudden empathygasm, but the writing nevertheless was clear on there being plenty of enemies to our heroes from the get-go.

As for "Gene's intention", the earliest episodes of each series are good examples of this carrying no weight whatsoever. In TOS, we open with a Starfleet clearly divided into heroic officers and riffraff enlisted crew, contrary to Roddenberry's "intention" of only having officer astronauts as heroes. In TNG, our heroes use money to buy mundane items, contrary to Roddenberry's "intention" of not having money. In fact, the "intention" of an officer-only crew never manifests, thus leaving the writing free of contradictions; the "intention" of no money is made some fun of in DS9, but never plays a role in those Treks Roddenberry was involved in.

Certainly there's no evidence of an "intention" for a warless Starfleet in the TNG era. Our heroes constantly face battle in the early seasons of TNG, both with enemies-of-the-week and with "old" enemies who just haven't been mentioned before but apparently have popped up after we last saw Starfleet in TOS. Trying to shoehorn the idea of a warless TNG into the material is like trying to claim that TOS contradicted itself because the Enterprise didn't have cartwheels, despite the "intention" clearly being of having a wagon train into the stars. That if anything is a "retcon" - although it's neither "retroactive" (because it isn't "active" outside your posts) nor "continuity" (because warless TNG would contradict existing continuity).

Timo Saloniemi

Adding to that, the Ent was never on screen involved in the bloodiest war in the history of the AQ. The Ent seemed to be more involved in early hot spots like Romulus and Kronos.