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Cardassian views on occupation.

WesleysDisciple

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Had a friend from britain I talked with a bit ago... about some of the... bizzare things going on in india, he convinced if his people had been able to continue their presence there, such ... outrages would be ended now

dont want to bring the specific things up out of fear it would

Any such things that you think Cardassians could point out on bajor

is it probaly safe to say that some Cardassians might have disapproved of a number of SPECIFIC Excesses, like the labor camps, While still feeling the occupation didnt need to be ended, just modfied.
 
Interesting view from your British friend, I am quite certain that view is not shared by a vast majority in the UK. Sounds like he is just romanticizing a period rather than looking at the nitty gritty reality. I suspect the same could be said of the Cardassians in DS9, they have a colonialist attitude to the Bajorians, Dukat even likens them to his "children". Clearly this is a warped, paternalistic view. Afterall, as Prefect, Dukat had no qualms a sending his "children" to forced labor camps. Often such attitudes are attempts a revisionism and the result of a guilty conscience.
 
The real problem with your question is our lack of understanding of Cardassian society.

For Cardassians views on the Bajoran occupation to be examined, a conversation would have to take place, a national debate if you will.

And in the hypothetical we know that wasn't particularly likely to happen under the Obsidian order, and the Detapa Councils civil authority didn't last long enough until Gul Dukat became leader for any such issue to be examined by that society, if they were willing to examine it at all.

This all coupled with the fact that the vast majority of Cardassians that even knew the full extent of the atrocities committed would HAVE to have been in the military and been there themselves, news of that full extent would not have been allowed to propagate easily under the Obsidian Orders watchful eye.

I kind of feel that the Cardassians attitude towards the Occupation even Post-Dominion War would go alot like the Japanese attitude towards War Crimes they committed against the Chinese and Korean peoples.
 
I have to agree, your friend is romanticizing the British period in India. Certainly one could point to other European colonies that were governed more harshly, certainly the process of the British granting India and Pakistan their independence went more smoothly than many other independence movements. But their government was not all sweetness and light. I'd recommend reading about the great Indian hedge, and the taxation policies that made it necessary. Britain had to grant India independence. If it wasn't amicable in 1947, then it would have been bitter and bloody and probably not later than the mid 1950s no matter what Britain tried. India and Pakistan were becoming national states, and no occupation was going to keep them as colonies.

Some Cardassians probably felt the Bajoran occupation was good for them, or could have continued with different methods, or something, but they were fooling themselves as much as your British friend was about India.
 
Believe me when I tell you that your friends viewpoint is very much in a minority here in the UK. And more than a little embarrassing. The viewpoint of Britain "civilising the natives" is (thankfully) now seen as both racist and outdated.
 
We were talking about Natives of India deciding it was cheaper and easier to force their daughter through gender reassignment surgery then to find her a dowry.

I think that IS behaviour deserving of suppression.
 
We also lack basic knowledge on why Cardassia stopped occupying Bajor. Could the occupation have continued, and if so, what would have happened?

Some Bajorans believe their resistance drove Cardassians out, or made it too difficult for the occupiers to remain in power. This may be pure delusion (see any number of episodes featuring the freedom fighters). Some Cardassians have said Bajor was already mined empty and was not worth keeping. This may be a face-saving pretense. People associated with Central Command feel the civilian government (supposedly the Detapa Council, before the writers invented that particular name for it) engineered the withdrawing and were in error there ("Cardassians").

Assuming Bajor was worth keeping, the Cardassians probably would have done something about the resistance. Ignoring it might have sufficed. Such things never last long ITRW; meaningful resistance carrying on for more than one generation is virtually unheard of in the history of occupations.

However, we never heard of Cardassians wanting to Cardassianize Bajor. The planet was always described as a simple resource (even if there may have been prestige involved in holding it, and strategic considerations about retaining a world that is next door neighbor to the Cardassian home system). OTOH, any talk about deliberate genocide has been disingenuous provocation ("Necessary Evil"). So a continuing occupation would probably have had minimal effect on how Bajorans conducted their lives. Even the d'jarras were only suppressed because of the need to fight the occupation - the suppression of the caste system would not have extended to the majority of the population had not the freedom fighters "won" and taken control of the planet.

The old way of life had been good enough for Bajor for, what, hundreds of thousands of years? The occupation itself probably would have preserved it indefinitely; its ending put an end to the way of life, too.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Eventually, Cardassia probably looked back on the Occupation of Bajor as a brutal, horrible period in their history, much like Americans now look on slavery. But it probably took a long while and a whole lot of cultural change before the period stops being romanticized as the golden era of the Cardassian Empire. It probably didn't happen until Cardassia eventually rebounded from the end of the Dominion War a couple hundred years later.

It's kind of ridiculous to say that life under Cardassian rule was the same as the prior Bajoran way of life. They dominated their entire economy and stole all their resources, not to mention that they stole the orbs which are their primary resource to contact their Gods. Maybe had there not been a resistance Cardassia may have laid off the executions and left them alone while they are praying at the temple, but that's only one aspect of culture, it's not preserving the Bajoran way of life.

It's also a mild form of racism to assume that all cultures prefer to stay as they are rather than modernize on their own terms, and that any modern development constitutes that culture's 'destruction'. Culture is not a static thing that needs to be preserved in a jar. Culture is fluid. Bajor continuing out into the interplanetary community as equals is the natural development of their culture, and forcing it to stay static at the end of a chain would have destroyed it.

Whenever one technologically advanced culture dominates another you can usually find some practices that are clearly wrong. For example, foot binding, a horrible practice that went out of fashion in China due to foreign influence. Citing that as a justification for cultural domination and slavery is the ultimate in condescension and belief in one's own destiny to superiority. The proverbial taking the speck out of somebody's eye when you've got a log in your own. Going to atrocious measures when you're not sure if you can pay the rent is not an exclusively third world phenomenon and pointing one example of it out to condemn an entire culture is the ultimate in arrogance.
 
We were talking about Natives of India deciding it was cheaper and easier to force their daughter through gender reassignment surgery then to find her a dowry.

I think that IS behaviour deserving of suppression.

Well you never made that clear in your first post. You made it sound like your friend was suggesting that subjugation of the sub-continent was a great chapter in British history. One which he laments the passing of and would welcome a return to.

After reading your additional information, I can agree that situation is abhorrent. But India does not need to be ruled from half way around the world to sort that for itself. There are also multi-national organisations such as Amnesty that are striving to rid the world of such horrors.

I am struggling to understand your position in this discussion. From your first post I assumed you were an Indian yourself. My bad to assume. Your second post makes me question my original assumption.
 
It's kind of ridiculous to say that life under Cardassian rule was the same as the prior Bajoran way of life. They dominated their entire economy and stole all their resources, not to mention that they stole the orbs which are their primary resource to contact their Gods.

To establish whether this is ridiculous, we'd first need to know who held those resources before the occupation. Was there a difference between the economy being dominated by the Cardassians and the economy being dominated by the Bajorans? Was there a difference between the Orbs being on Cardassia Prime and the Orbs being in the secret basements of monasteries? The place doesn't appear to be a representative democracy, and is more like a theocracy for all practical purposes; the "actual Bajorans" would have been "dominated" in any case anyway.

Culture is not a static thing that needs to be preserved in a jar. Culture is fluid.

Not Bajoran culture, apparently. It's more ancient than anything in the human sphere of experience, and supposedly extremely stable. It doesn't take any preserving by outside agents - it stays immutable on its own.

Bajor continuing out into the interplanetary community as equals is the natural development of their culture

Sure.

and forcing it to stay static at the end of a chain would have destroyed it.

Probably not. After all, staying static is what it had been successfully doing for the past twenty thousand years or so - and that's just a fraction of its total history (and never mind prehistory).

some practices that are clearly wrong

No such thing for Homo sapiens. We have tried it all, and there simply is no agreement on what is good and what is evil. There are local standards that sometimes are at extreme odds with each other - but picking the "good" out of any two is for the stronger, more oppressive party to do.

Of course, the DS9 story is particularly telling because both sides to the domination game are alien to us - and this is of course achieved by creating specific fictional nonhuman characteristics for each side. Although they aren't developed much, because the writers are hard pressed to understand what "Cardassians value family more than humans" might mean in dramatic practice. Yet in essence, we are watching from the outside, collectively representing the "human point of view", which of course is pure fantasy, as humans cannot agree to a point of view. It's fun to project one's subjective morals to the story, but the actual lesson to be learned there is that morals indeed are subjective, no more substantial than those created by a science fiction writer for entertainment.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We were talking about Natives of India deciding it was cheaper and easier to force their daughter through gender reassignment surgery then to find her a dowry.

I think that IS behaviour deserving of suppression.

A horrible thing, but does that wrong justify the wrong of occupying a country?

Somerset's Case in 1772 made slavery illegal in England. All slaves were free the moment they set foot on English soil. The status of slaves in the British empire was left ambiguous for the time being, but the American colonies whose economies were based on slavery saw the writing was on the wall and that was an important motivation behind the southern American colonies siding with the revolution. Should Britain have claimed that they should have held on to the American colonies so they could have ended slavery 30 years earlier?

Even in India, there's the beginnings of women being able to hold jobs and support themselves. The dowry problem will gradually solve itself. Not fast, just like women getting the vote, to own property, to leave an abusive husband, etc. etc., it will come far too slowly. But it will happen.

And even if it didn't, Britain attempting to continue to hold India as a colony would certainly have resulted in a bloodbath and it's highly questionable they would have been able to regulate away social problems like abuse of girls.
 
There was an episode where the Bajorans brought back a backwards form of a caste system from the past.

It was stated that they put it aside in order to fight the Cardassians.

I'm not sure, but somewhere it was stated that the Cardassians tried to put a stop to it also?

Depending on which side you believe, either the Bajorans were backwards and the Cardassians tried to "save" them, or the Bajorans were well ahead of everybody else before they met the Cardassians.

The Cardassians were imperialists, if they could have gotten the chance to be. They felt they were destined to rule the entire quadrant.

The main thing I wonder is, did the Bajorans ever agree to be part of Cardassian, or was it just a brutal takeover.
 
There was an episode where the Bajorans brought back a backwards form of a caste system from the past.

It was stated that they put it aside in order to fight the Cardassians.

I'm not sure, but somewhere it was stated that the Cardassians tried to put a stop to it also?

No, the Cardassians themselves had no part in the Bajorans' decision to abolish the d'jarras. They might not have even known it existed.
 
What does this "they put it aside" thing really mean? From all the other episodes describing the resistance, it appears that only a tiny minority of Bajorans fought the Cardassians. The others would have no real motivation to put anything aside, as they would either be disinterested in attempting futile resistance; terrified of Cardassian retribution; or eager to collaborate. Any of the above three would have them sticking to the old ways, rather than looking for excuses not to.

Sadly, we never learn the full story of how Kira Nerys joined the resistance movement. At what point did she disown her destiny as a an Ih'valla artist-artisan? When Cardassians made life hell for his family? When they made life easy for them, and she found out why? When she actually got out there to fight?

Through Kira's story, we might learn whether Cardassians would have to deal separately with those who shoot at them and those who abandon the old societal order that would make ruling Bajor so much easier - or whether those are one and the same small group.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I wonder if the Cardassians ever brought a sport to their occupied worlds to try to unite them. In relation to the OP, I am thinking of an analogy to the British spreading the love of cricket.
 
Did we ever see alien sports (as opposed to generic UFP ones such as Parrises Squares, or real Earth sports)? There's a lacuna there in Trek lore that needs filling! And no, I don't think the Wadi games count.

Gul Dukat took several Bajoran lovers; one wonders if he tried to teach Cardassian culture to them, whether as a joke or in all seriousness. Dukat was considered both an aberration (the norms of his society ultimately led to the crashing and burning of his career due to his Bajoran perversions and excesses) and a representative example (several other officers far away from home engaged in this comfort-woman nastiness). Would there have been any Legate Higginses out there trying to educate the barbarians, or any folks closer in spirit to Armin Maariza who would think they were honestly helping Bajorans by teaching them Cardassian life?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Cardassian occupation of Bajor sounds like old style colonialism.

Very weak attempt to 'legitimise' it with a Bajoran puppet government but with widespread abuses such as having work camps everywhere and very severe conditions in them including on the station.

It's never made quite clear what made them leave as there doesn't seem to be some kind of disaster at home or game-changer defeat externally. They left for reasons unclear.

Or perhaps they found deposits of resources elsewhere in the galaxy and quelling a popular revolt and the return they where getting from Bajor, they just thought the better of it.
 
I had always viewed the reason for the withdrawal being a combination of the occupation being no longer worth it, either the easily extractable resources were being used up or the resistance were actually beginning to win and also treaty boundary change resulting from the peace settlement following the Cardassian / Federation war.

As to what the average Cardassian would have thought... due to the tight control on information and propaganda exerted by the military government, I would consider it likely that either they didn't even know bout the existence of Bajor (or at least its inhabitants) or had been told that the Bajorans were simply a non-technological people who were happy to be a junior partner in the Great Cardassian Union and were simply trading resources for protection (probably from the old enemy, the Federation). Losses were probably hidden, and where this was not possible, were attributed to accidents in training, mechanical failure or blamed on the Federation / Maquis.
 
It's never made quite clear what made them leave as there doesn't seem to be some kind of disaster at home or game-changer defeat externally. They left for reasons unclear.

We get plenty of hints, though. Bajor could well have been sucked dry already, and consuming more resources than it was producing. And in "Cardassians", Dukat flat out says that the withdrawal was a decision by the "civilian leaders", who were supposed to have little power over the military usually. But just before the withdrawal, the military had been thoroughly humiliated by the events of "Chain of Command" - perhaps losing enough prestige that the Detapa Council was able to humiliate them further by ordering Bajor to be dropped. Instead of audacious military adventures, the Union now tried to play games with the DMZ treaty.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Did we ever see alien sports (as opposed to generic UFP ones such as Parrises Squares, or real Earth sports)?

Springball - a Bajoran sport - was shown on DS9 a few times. Kira and Bareil played it, and so did Bashir and O'Brien.
 
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